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trashcan
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 Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I always thought the prevalent thought was Luke was a players coach and not too tough on players. Is he ever really on certain players after losses? I don't know. Lavar wants lonzo held accountable for losses by Luke and I think that's pretty fair. The quote was taken right after the suns game and the reaction on this forum was even more toxic. |
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Christopher Walken
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | AY2043 wrote: | Ugh, if he could just score at even a below average league efficiency (instead of historically bad), he'd be up there with Simmons as a ROY candidate.
He does pretty much everything else at a very high level for a rookie. |
No he wouldn't. There's not a single thing Lonzo does better than Simmons other than shooting three's and even then I'd rather have someone not take three's than someone to launch nearly 5 a game on 22% shooting.
Simmons even averages more assists than Lonzo which was supposed to be Lozno's defining attribute. |
Lonzo is a considerably better passer but has less shooters, no Embiid and much lower usage. With that said, Simmons is a very good passer and a much better overall player at the moment. |
Who cares if simmons is a better passer? according to this guys logic, BI isn't as good a scorer as other small forwards- I don't get the point. Should julius retire because aaron gordon is playing better?
Last edited by Christopher Walken on Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AC Green's V-Card
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Hopefully tox or fiendishoc come across this, but I always wondered if the "more assisted shots, the better" axiom color commentators like Stu always bring up was just a truism. It certainly makes for prettier basketball.
The value of high usage stars scoring in isolation may equal or surpass the value of assisted shots for lesser players. Basically, coaches praise passing so that the KCP's of the world take fewer contested shots they're not capable of consistently making, while even an assisted, relatively uncontested shot from a roleplayer has a lower expected efficiency than a Kyrie Irving one-on-one.
I also wonder if the league-wide increase in passing correlates more with PPP than assists do. Spacing and ball movement may generate easier iso opportunities (attacking scrambling defenses) that drive an increase in overall offensive efficiency, though that's just speculation without any data to back it up. |
I would expect that, if we really crunched the data correctly, there would be a positive correlation between assists and points. However, I would also expect that the correlation would be much weaker than a lot of people think.
In the modern game, a lot of assists are generated simply by passing the ball to a jump shooter. Many people think of assists as those glorious passes by guys like Magic that produce an uncontested layup. Those assists are the exception, not the rule. This is why Hollinger devalued the assist in his PER formula -- in most cases, the majority of the work is done by the shooter, not the passer.
If you have a system that generates exceptional scoring opportunities through assists, that's great. If you have a system that just generates assists, then the assists may have no net value or even a negative net value. |
You may be interested in reading this article: http://www.82games.com/assisted.htm |
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Joe Pesci
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| trashcan wrote: | | I always thought the prevalent thought was Luke was a players coach and not too tough on players. Is he ever really on certain players after losses? I don't know. Lavar wants lonzo held accountable for losses by Luke and I think that's pretty fair. The quote was taken right after the suns game and the reaction on this forum was even more toxic. |
Voice of reason. Anyone upset by Lavar Ball here, without really knowing, is falling into the narrative that everything this “nut” says is wrong, and that’s clearly not the truth, case in point his comments here.
Separate the message from the messenger. Even a broke clock is right twice a day. |
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BruceLeroy1985
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Lavar is proving me right. I said when we drafted Lonzo we are also drafting Lavar and all his BS. Just wait. The longer Lonzo sucks the more Lavar will talk and be a distraction.
Smartest thing to do would be to trade Ball now. |
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Vancouver Fan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| BruceLeroy1985 wrote: | Lavar is proving me right. I said when we drafted Lonzo we are also drafting Lavar and all his BS. Just wait. The longer Lonzo sucks the more Lavar will talk and be a distraction.
Smartest thing to do would be to trade Ball now. |
Lonzo hasn't been "sucking" though. He's been doing just fine. Imo, fans need to temper expectations. He wasn't going to be Magic out the gate. Like any rookie, he'll have his highs and lows.
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Joe Pesci
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| BruceLeroy1985 wrote: | Lavar is proving me right. I said when we drafted Lonzo we are also drafting Lavar and all his BS. Just wait. The longer Lonzo sucks the more Lavar will talk and be a distraction.
Smartest thing to do would be to trade Ball now. |
The sheep have come out to play and now the sky is falling people. Is your last name Bayless? |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
If you have a system that generates exceptional scoring opportunities through assists, that's great. If you have a system that just generates assists, then the assists may have no net value or even a negative net value. |
If you feel like convincing me of that one, I'd appreciate it. |
Sure. Imagine a team consisting of a bunch of skilled iso players. If you install a system that requires a lot of ball movement and that limits iso play, then you may get more assists but worse results. |
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Vin
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| BruceLeroy1985 wrote: | Lavar is proving me right. I said when we drafted Lonzo we are also drafting Lavar and all his BS. Just wait. The longer Lonzo sucks the more Lavar will talk and be a distraction.
Smartest thing to do would be to trade Ball now. |
Trading Ball now is literraly the dumbest thing you could do right now.
I think Ball gonna have to kill his father (figuratively speaking) in the media. And say that he doesn't want to be associated with what he says or something like that.
Last edited by Vin on Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Pesci wrote: | | trashcan wrote: | | I always thought the prevalent thought was Luke was a players coach and not too tough on players. Is he ever really on certain players after losses? I don't know. Lavar wants lonzo held accountable for losses by Luke and I think that's pretty fair. The quote was taken right after the suns game and the reaction on this forum was even more toxic. |
Voice of reason. Anyone upset by Lavar Ball here, without really knowing, is falling into the narrative that everything this “nut” says is wrong, and that’s clearly not the truth, case in point his comments here.
Separate the message from the messenger. Even a broke clock is right twice a day. |
Well, you can't really separate the two since the latter is a part of the former.
But I know what you mean. I'm more annoyed by the fact he's going to cause drama for this team by being public about it. |
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Texas_Pete
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Ball says he’s occasionally conflicted about when to push the pace and when to execute plays, all while trying to distinguish between a good and a bad shot. “We have four plays,” he said, “and in my whole life, I never ran an offense. I just freelanced, fastbreak, pick-and-roll. So it’s a little different, and I think that’s why I feel I’m playing a little different than I normally do. Just thinking too much.” |
SAC Bee |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| BruceLeroy1985 wrote: | Lavar is proving me right. I said when we drafted Lonzo we are also drafting Lavar and all his BS. Just wait. The longer Lonzo sucks the more Lavar will talk and be a distraction.
Smartest thing to do would be to trade Ball now. |
Well, trading him would be really dumb.
But hey, like his poor shooting, we should all have known drafting Lonzo was a package deal right? |
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governator
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Who cares about LaVar!!!
If you’re judged by your dad, our president would be a KKK!
Lonzo is doing well enough, judge him next season after a whole offseason of shooting drills ala BI |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| BruceLeroy1985 wrote: | | Smartest thing to do would be to trade Ball now. |
We're pot-committed with Ball. If Lavar is a problem in the long run, then frankly that is on Magic. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Aren't both incarnations of Oklahoma City a pretty good example of what one might expect with a trio of incredibly skilled iso players who find it difficult to win a championship? Even Miami is evidence of this, as they struggled mightly as opposed to running the table as many predicted.
Whether you are talking Russell's Celtics, Holzman's Knicks, Showtime Lakers, Jordan's Bulls, Popovich's Spurs... the common thread is great passing, finding the open man, and balanced scoring. (Jordan's Bulls did better when he wasn't scoring high thirties) |
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32
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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The Lavar discussion is getting old. We aren't supposed to discuss him in this thread.
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Rivershow
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| BruceLeroy1985 wrote: | Lavar is proving me right. I said when we drafted Lonzo we are also drafting Lavar and all his BS. Just wait. The longer Lonzo sucks the more Lavar will talk and be a distraction.
Smartest thing to do would be to trade Ball now. |
The smartest thing to do would be throwing away our #2 pick because of a stupid father. Are you sure you don't want reevaluate your statement on the most stupid thing the Lakers can do? Because you sure said some stupid (bleep). |
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LakerDYnasty72
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| BruceLeroy1985 wrote: | Lavar is proving me right. I said when we drafted Lonzo we are also drafting Lavar and all his BS. Just wait. The longer Lonzo sucks the more Lavar will talk and be a distraction.
Smartest thing to do would be to trade Ball now. |
I paused for a moment at this post because I wanted to consider if you were serious. Now that I believe that your serious, I just realize that your just seriously wrong. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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fyi LaVar was lamenting babying a young team when they lose or don't give effort by just saying "they're young" or "they'll get it" as opposed to putting the onus on them and saying "its your responsibility" essentially, and him just saying to challenge them to that task instead of treating them soft. In the full quote anyway. As he said "there's no patience when you're winning".
Chopped up quote from the media but that's par the course when it comes to LaVar these days. He essentially said to hold his son accountable when he plays bad instead of going "oh it's alright." and patting him on the back.
You know... essentially what Kobe Bryant's been saying. Remember he said the line he agreed with most in Whiplash was "the two most harmful things you could ever say to anyone... is 'good job'."
Essentially what LaVar is saying is not to baby his son when he's playing poorly or not being aggressive, and instead hold him accountable instead of treating it easy going like "oh it's ok" when the team is losing.
That's essentially what he doesn't like.
He's saying essentially the same thing Kobe was saying.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Some folks were mentioned The Stepien in another thread and I happen to head over there and see that they just published a fresh new write up on Lonzo. Haven't even finished reading it yet but wanted to share as it started out really intriguing.
Here's a snippet. What a great read so far: https://www.thestepien.com/2017/11/21/assessing-lonzo-ball-putting-players-position-succeed/
Assessing Lonzo Ball and Putting Players in a Position to Succeed
| Quote: | What made Ball a special college player was largely what he did off the ball, both offensively and defensively. This might sound like a slight considering his “lead guard” designation and the fact a lot of fans still live in a world where a “pure point guard” title is a thing, but it’s not a slight. It was a reasonable projection based on his college film that Ball was ideally utilized as a system player in a team construct in the half court working off the ball, where his spot up shooting (we’ll get here), razor-sharp instincts as a cutter, quick anticipatory passing and ability for both him and his team to get him in advantage situations as a scorer could be leveraged to optimize his impact (on top of being a transition playmaker). We just haven’t seen these off ball elements, mainly cutting and off movement advantage situations, materialize yet to the degree you’d hope for on the Lakers, especially early in the season.
There could be multiple reasons for this. The Lakers might just want to throw Ball into the fire as a self creator and see what they have especially in pick-and-roll before the all-important 2018 free agency hits, so they have a better idea how to build around/with him. It’s also entirely possible that the Lakers believe they don’t have enough ancillary creation to demote Ball to a more off-ball role from a personnel perspective. Brandon Ingram is their best bet with his rekindled playmaking for others game (after a concerning start to the season) and improved slashing ability, but he’s not a go-to option here yet. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope’s dicey decision-making and shot selection also hasn’t inspired a lot of confidence in a higher usage creation role. Julius Randle and Kyle Kuzma especially are very capable playmakers and can operate with the ball from the top of the arc, but that kind of playmaking is not usually of the initiation type and is often times in some kind of advantage situation. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | Aren't both incarnations of Oklahoma City a pretty good example of what one might expect with a trio of incredibly skilled iso players who find it difficult to win a championship? Even Miami is evidence of this, as they struggled mightly as opposed to running the table as many predicted.
Whether you are talking Russell's Celtics, Holzman's Knicks, Showtime Lakers, Jordan's Bulls, Popovich's Spurs... the common thread is great passing, finding the open man, and balanced scoring. (Jordan's Bulls did better when he wasn't scoring high thirties) |
Maybe, but that OKC team reached the Finals and that Miami team won two titles. You have to play with what you have. I don't mean to suggest that this is the norm, or that iso play is better, or anything radical like that. What I'm saying should be common sense. There are going to be situations in which a team roster is better equipped for iso play than a passing game, and there could even be a situation in which a team roster is so iso-oriented that generating assists has net negative effect. |
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Treble Clef
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | | BruceLeroy1985 wrote: | Lavar is proving me right. I said when we drafted Lonzo we are also drafting Lavar and all his BS. Just wait. The longer Lonzo sucks the more Lavar will talk and be a distraction.
Smartest thing to do would be to trade Ball now. |
I paused for a moment at this post because I wanted to consider if you were serious. Now that I believe that your serious, I just realize that your just seriously wrong. |
The reason his dad isn't a concern to me is because Lonzo is proving himself to be nothing like him. |
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PHILosophize
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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I actually kind of like Lavar now; his CNN interview was funny as bleep
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
If you have a system that generates exceptional scoring opportunities through assists, that's great. If you have a system that just generates assists, then the assists may have no net value or even a negative net value. |
If you feel like convincing me of that one, I'd appreciate it. |
Sure. Imagine a team consisting of a bunch of skilled iso players. If you install a system that requires a lot of ball movement and that limits iso play, then you may get more assists but worse results. |
Miami Heat with LeBron, Wade, Bosh? Each of those guys were #1 options for their respective teams prior to meeting up.
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Vin
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| PHILosophize wrote: | | I actually kind of like Lavar now; his CNN interview was funny as bleep |
I really don't mind him, I don't really pay attention to the stuff he says but he's not making it easy for Lonzo though imo. |
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