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jonnybravo
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 Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | Do Lonzo Ball's strengths make up for his glaring weaknesses?
| Quote: | Is Los Angeles Lakers rookie Lonzo Ball the player who shot 1-of-9 from the field in a loss to the Philadelphia 76ers on Wednesday, missing all six of his 3-point attempts, or the player who had a triple-double (11 points, 16 rebounds, 11 assists) four nights later in a blowout win over the Denver Nuggets?
The answer is both, of course, and while Ball's inconsistency is hardly unusual for a 20-year-old rookie point guard, the all-or-nothing nature of his present skill set makes him an atypically challenging player to evaluate. Are Ball's strengths currently outweighing his weaknesses? Let's take a look. |
LINK
surprised by this fact...
| Quote: | | The Lakers have been slightly better defensively with him (Ball) on the bench, per NBA.com/Stats. |
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Our bench players are that much better than their respective counterparts imo.
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eddiejonze
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Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 7251
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | | The Lavar discussion is getting old. We aren't supposed to discuss him in this thread. |
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FanOfFour
Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1761
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | Do Lonzo Ball's strengths make up for his glaring weaknesses?
| Quote: | Is Los Angeles Lakers rookie Lonzo Ball the player who shot 1-of-9 from the field in a loss to the Philadelphia 76ers on Wednesday, missing all six of his 3-point attempts, or the player who had a triple-double (11 points, 16 rebounds, 11 assists) four nights later in a blowout win over the Denver Nuggets?
The answer is both, of course, and while Ball's inconsistency is hardly unusual for a 20-year-old rookie point guard, the all-or-nothing nature of his present skill set makes him an atypically challenging player to evaluate. Are Ball's strengths currently outweighing his weaknesses? Let's take a look. |
LINK
surprised by this fact...
| Quote: | | The Lakers have been slightly better defensively with him (Ball) on the bench, per NBA.com/Stats. |
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Our bench players are that much better than their respective counterparts imo. |
Exactly, it's easy to see that Lonzo is a much better defender than anyone else at the PG spot on this roster. And it's not even close. It also tells me that Pelton doesn't actually watch the games and only crunches numbers. Not a shock. |
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AFireInside619
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Joined: 11 Dec 2015
Posts: 11447
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Remember when Lebron was able to slow down the 2015 Warriors team with his controlling the pace. He single handedly almost beat them and should have been the losing MVP. I can't wait until Lonzo can control and take over a game like that. I'm not expecting (yes I am wishing) Zo to ever be as dominant as Lebron, but if he can be more efficient offensively, and dictate the tempo of the game to his terms, teams will have a hard time beating us. |
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Yama
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Season high for rookies:
Most points : Kyle Kuzma (30), Lonzo Ball (29)
Most rebounds : Lonzo Ball (16), John Collins (13)
Most assists : Lonzo Ball (13), Lonzo Ball (13)
Most steals : Frankie (6), Lonzo Ball (5)
Most blocks : Lonzo Ball (4), Lonzo Ball (4) |
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Yama wrote: | Season high for rookies:
Most points : Kyle Kuzma (30), Lonzo Ball (29)
Most rebounds : Lonzo Ball (16), John Collins (13)
Most assists : Lonzo Ball (13), Lonzo Ball (13)
Most steals : Frankie (6), Lonzo Ball (5)
Most blocks : Lonzo Ball (4), Lonzo Ball (4) |
Yet Lonzo is a bust.... wait till he adjusts to the NBA game. People are going to be eating some serious crow. |
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leor_77
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Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 21920
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Yama wrote: | Season high for rookies:
Most points : Kyle Kuzma (30), Lonzo Ball (29)
Most rebounds : Lonzo Ball (16), John Collins (13)
Most assists : Lonzo Ball (13), Lonzo Ball (13)
Most steals : Frankie (6), Lonzo Ball (5)
Most blocks : Lonzo Ball (4), Lonzo Ball (4) |
Yet Lonzo is a bust.... wait till he adjusts to the NBA game. People are going to be eating some serious crow. |
I'm not saying he's a bust, but he sucked for most of the games he played (he has very few games shooting above 30%). Cherrypicking one or two good games does nothing for your argument. |
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bluehill
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | Some folks were mentioned The Stepien in another thread and I happen to head over there and see that they just published a fresh new write up on Lonzo. Haven't even finished reading it yet but wanted to share as it started out really intriguing.
Here's a snippet. What a great read so far: https://www.thestepien.com/2017/11/21/assessing-lonzo-ball-putting-players-position-succeed/
Assessing Lonzo Ball and Putting Players in a Position to Succeed
| Quote: | What made Ball a special college player was largely what he did off the ball, both offensively and defensively. This might sound like a slight considering his “lead guard” designation and the fact a lot of fans still live in a world where a “pure point guard” title is a thing, but it’s not a slight. It was a reasonable projection based on his college film that Ball was ideally utilized as a system player in a team construct in the half court working off the ball, where his spot up shooting (we’ll get here), razor-sharp instincts as a cutter, quick anticipatory passing and ability for both him and his team to get him in advantage situations as a scorer could be leveraged to optimize his impact (on top of being a transition playmaker). We just haven’t seen these off ball elements, mainly cutting and off movement advantage situations, materialize yet to the degree you’d hope for on the Lakers, especially early in the season.
There could be multiple reasons for this. The Lakers might just want to throw Ball into the fire as a self creator and see what they have especially in pick-and-roll before the all-important 2018 free agency hits, so they have a better idea how to build around/with him. It’s also entirely possible that the Lakers believe they don’t have enough ancillary creation to demote Ball to a more off-ball role from a personnel perspective. Brandon Ingram is their best bet with his rekindled playmaking for others game (after a concerning start to the season) and improved slashing ability, but he’s not a go-to option here yet. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope’s dicey decision-making and shot selection also hasn’t inspired a lot of confidence in a higher usage creation role. Julius Randle and Kyle Kuzma especially are very capable playmakers and can operate with the ball from the top of the arc, but that kind of playmaking is not usually of the initiation type and is often times in some kind of advantage situation. |
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The article does a good job analyzing Lonzo's game. As some have noted, his issues were pretty well documented in several pre-draft scouting reports and looking back at those reports they are proving to be pretty accurate. Doesn't mean that Lonzo won't get better, but it seems like his particular set of challenges could take longer to improve. As the article notes, it may be better for the team and Lonzo's development if he is not asked to be the primary creator right now. |
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leor_77
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Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 21920
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| As crazy as it sounds, this whole Lavar thing might end up helping Lonzo. Most NBA players are as anti-trump as you can get, and I can see this whole thing by Lavar appealing to them. Instead of trying to destroy Lonzo, they'll obviously still go at him, but maybe not as bad. |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| bluehill wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Some folks were mentioned The Stepien in another thread and I happen to head over there and see that they just published a fresh new write up on Lonzo. Haven't even finished reading it yet but wanted to share as it started out really intriguing.
Here's a snippet. What a great read so far: https://www.thestepien.com/2017/11/21/assessing-lonzo-ball-putting-players-position-succeed/
Assessing Lonzo Ball and Putting Players in a Position to Succeed
| Quote: | What made Ball a special college player was largely what he did off the ball, both offensively and defensively. This might sound like a slight considering his “lead guard” designation and the fact a lot of fans still live in a world where a “pure point guard” title is a thing, but it’s not a slight. It was a reasonable projection based on his college film that Ball was ideally utilized as a system player in a team construct in the half court working off the ball, where his spot up shooting (we’ll get here), razor-sharp instincts as a cutter, quick anticipatory passing and ability for both him and his team to get him in advantage situations as a scorer could be leveraged to optimize his impact (on top of being a transition playmaker). We just haven’t seen these off ball elements, mainly cutting and off movement advantage situations, materialize yet to the degree you’d hope for on the Lakers, especially early in the season.
There could be multiple reasons for this. The Lakers might just want to throw Ball into the fire as a self creator and see what they have especially in pick-and-roll before the all-important 2018 free agency hits, so they have a better idea how to build around/with him. It’s also entirely possible that the Lakers believe they don’t have enough ancillary creation to demote Ball to a more off-ball role from a personnel perspective. Brandon Ingram is their best bet with his rekindled playmaking for others game (after a concerning start to the season) and improved slashing ability, but he’s not a go-to option here yet. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope’s dicey decision-making and shot selection also hasn’t inspired a lot of confidence in a higher usage creation role. Julius Randle and Kyle Kuzma especially are very capable playmakers and can operate with the ball from the top of the arc, but that kind of playmaking is not usually of the initiation type and is often times in some kind of advantage situation. |
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The article does a good job analyzing Lonzo's game. As some have noted, his issues were pretty well documented in several pre-draft scouting reports and looking back at those reports they are proving to be pretty accurate. Doesn't mean that Lonzo won't get better, but it seems like his particular set of challenges could take longer to improve. As the article notes, it may be better for the team and Lonzo's development if he is not asked to be the primary creator right now. |
Chances are, the people who were well aware of this, didn't want DAR traded exactly for this reason.
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ringfinger
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Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | bluehill wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Some folks were mentioned The Stepien in another thread and I happen to head over there and see that they just published a fresh new write up on Lonzo. Haven't even finished reading it yet but wanted to share as it started out really intriguing.
Here's a snippet. What a great read so far: https://www.thestepien.com/2017/11/21/assessing-lonzo-ball-putting-players-position-succeed/
Assessing Lonzo Ball and Putting Players in a Position to Succeed
| Quote: | What made Ball a special college player was largely what he did off the ball, both offensively and defensively. This might sound like a slight considering his “lead guard” designation and the fact a lot of fans still live in a world where a “pure point guard” title is a thing, but it’s not a slight. It was a reasonable projection based on his college film that Ball was ideally utilized as a system player in a team construct in the half court working off the ball, where his spot up shooting (we’ll get here), razor-sharp instincts as a cutter, quick anticipatory passing and ability for both him and his team to get him in advantage situations as a scorer could be leveraged to optimize his impact (on top of being a transition playmaker). We just haven’t seen these off ball elements, mainly cutting and off movement advantage situations, materialize yet to the degree you’d hope for on the Lakers, especially early in the season.
There could be multiple reasons for this. The Lakers might just want to throw Ball into the fire as a self creator and see what they have especially in pick-and-roll before the all-important 2018 free agency hits, so they have a better idea how to build around/with him. It’s also entirely possible that the Lakers believe they don’t have enough ancillary creation to demote Ball to a more off-ball role from a personnel perspective. Brandon Ingram is their best bet with his rekindled playmaking for others game (after a concerning start to the season) and improved slashing ability, but he’s not a go-to option here yet. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope’s dicey decision-making and shot selection also hasn’t inspired a lot of confidence in a higher usage creation role. Julius Randle and Kyle Kuzma especially are very capable playmakers and can operate with the ball from the top of the arc, but that kind of playmaking is not usually of the initiation type and is often times in some kind of advantage situation. |
|
The article does a good job analyzing Lonzo's game. As some have noted, his issues were pretty well documented in several pre-draft scouting reports and looking back at those reports they are proving to be pretty accurate. Doesn't mean that Lonzo won't get better, but it seems like his particular set of challenges could take longer to improve. As the article notes, it may be better for the team and Lonzo's development if he is not asked to be the primary creator right now. |
Chances are, the people who were well aware of this, didn't want DAR traded exactly for this reason. |
I didn't know much about Lonzo so I didn't know that, but, it must be have been like a double gut punch in a way to get KCP then? Because he's kind of like the antithesis of DAR. |
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Mike@LG
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Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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^Didn't think it was a gut punch for KCP. You're getting an athletic hypothetical 3 and D guy. But when KCP was added, I already knew that LAL wasn't going to maximize Lonzo's efficient scoring abilities off-ball.
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bluehill
Starting Rotation
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 890
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | bluehill wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Some folks were mentioned The Stepien in another thread and I happen to head over there and see that they just published a fresh new write up on Lonzo. Haven't even finished reading it yet but wanted to share as it started out really intriguing.
Here's a snippet. What a great read so far: https://www.thestepien.com/2017/11/21/assessing-lonzo-ball-putting-players-position-succeed/
Assessing Lonzo Ball and Putting Players in a Position to Succeed
| Quote: | What made Ball a special college player was largely what he did off the ball, both offensively and defensively. This might sound like a slight considering his “lead guard” designation and the fact a lot of fans still live in a world where a “pure point guard” title is a thing, but it’s not a slight. It was a reasonable projection based on his college film that Ball was ideally utilized as a system player in a team construct in the half court working off the ball, where his spot up shooting (we’ll get here), razor-sharp instincts as a cutter, quick anticipatory passing and ability for both him and his team to get him in advantage situations as a scorer could be leveraged to optimize his impact (on top of being a transition playmaker). We just haven’t seen these off ball elements, mainly cutting and off movement advantage situations, materialize yet to the degree you’d hope for on the Lakers, especially early in the season.
There could be multiple reasons for this. The Lakers might just want to throw Ball into the fire as a self creator and see what they have especially in pick-and-roll before the all-important 2018 free agency hits, so they have a better idea how to build around/with him. It’s also entirely possible that the Lakers believe they don’t have enough ancillary creation to demote Ball to a more off-ball role from a personnel perspective. Brandon Ingram is their best bet with his rekindled playmaking for others game (after a concerning start to the season) and improved slashing ability, but he’s not a go-to option here yet. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope’s dicey decision-making and shot selection also hasn’t inspired a lot of confidence in a higher usage creation role. Julius Randle and Kyle Kuzma especially are very capable playmakers and can operate with the ball from the top of the arc, but that kind of playmaking is not usually of the initiation type and is often times in some kind of advantage situation. |
|
The article does a good job analyzing Lonzo's game. As some have noted, his issues were pretty well documented in several pre-draft scouting reports and looking back at those reports they are proving to be pretty accurate. Doesn't mean that Lonzo won't get better, but it seems like his particular set of challenges could take longer to improve. As the article notes, it may be better for the team and Lonzo's development if he is not asked to be the primary creator right now. |
Chances are, the people who were well aware of this, didn't want DAR traded exactly for this reason. |
Yep. The most concerning part of the article for me and also cause for hope is Lonzo's poor "unguarded" 3-point shooting percentage. He shot a high percentage in college at pro distance so the hope is that there's some reversion to the mean as he acclimates. The concern is that he is unable to improve significantly because of the step up in competition. |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Lonzo is a rhythm player, the type that "let's the game come to him."
Then there's guys like JC, Kobe, that dictate what they want out of the game.
With Zo, whether it's unguarded or guarded, I think it's far more about how freeflowing/confident/rhythmic his shot actually is. Didn't matter THAT much at UCLA.
I mean, we're watching the worst of Zo, and yet across the board, it's pace, defense, rebounds. He'll always find ways to contribute without scoring, and that is absolutely critical to his overall upside.
Because my gosh, if that guy is 40%FG and 35% 3pt, Now we're talking a 12/8/8/1.5/1 rookie PG?
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Vin
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Posts: 6005
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Lonzo is a rhythm player, the type that "let's the game come to him."
Then there's guys like JC, Kobe, that dictate what they want out of the game.
With Zo, whether it's unguarded or guarded, I think it's far more about how freeflowing/confident/rhythmic his shot actually is. Didn't matter THAT much at UCLA.
I mean, we're watching the worst of Zo, and yet across the board, it's pace, defense, rebounds. He'll always find ways to contribute without scoring, and that is absolutely critical to his overall upside.
Because my gosh, if that guy is 40%FG and 35% 3pt, Now we're talking a 12/8/8/1.5/1 rookie PG? |
I kinda chocked seeing JC and Kobe so close in the same sentence. |
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bandiger
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Posts: 12555
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Vin wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Lonzo is a rhythm player, the type that "let's the game come to him."
Then there's guys like JC, Kobe, that dictate what they want out of the game.
With Zo, whether it's unguarded or guarded, I think it's far more about how freeflowing/confident/rhythmic his shot actually is. Didn't matter THAT much at UCLA.
I mean, we're watching the worst of Zo, and yet across the board, it's pace, defense, rebounds. He'll always find ways to contribute without scoring, and that is absolutely critical to his overall upside.
Because my gosh, if that guy is 40%FG and 35% 3pt, Now we're talking a 12/8/8/1.5/1 rookie PG? |
I kinda chocked seeing JC and Kobe so close in the same sentence. |
Like wow, you really gonna compare a probable journeyman to an all time great? Let me know if JC works in the playoffs  |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Already out of context? That didn't take long at all.
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44TheLogo
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 6364
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Already out of context? That didn't take long at all. |
reading comprehension is low on the internet
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epak
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Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| 44TheLogo wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Already out of context? That didn't take long at all. |
reading comprehension is low on the internet |
The public school system has failed us  |
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| leor_77 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Yama wrote: | Season high for rookies:
Most points : Kyle Kuzma (30), Lonzo Ball (29)
Most rebounds : Lonzo Ball (16), John Collins (13)
Most assists : Lonzo Ball (13), Lonzo Ball (13)
Most steals : Frankie (6), Lonzo Ball (5)
Most blocks : Lonzo Ball (4), Lonzo Ball (4) |
Yet Lonzo is a bust.... wait till he adjusts to the NBA game. People are going to be eating some serious crow. |
I'm not saying he's a bust, but he sucked for most of the games he played (he has very few games shooting above 30%). Cherrypicking one or two good games does nothing for your argument. |
No he simply hasn’t sucked in most of his games if you’re capable of looking beyond scoring. But yes the fact he has one or both of the top two performances in every statistical category is cherry picking. But it’s cherry picking every players stats and he’s still at the top. This undoubtedly shows he’s nowhere near a bust. |
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AC Green's V-Card
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Joined: 09 Aug 2012
Posts: 3063
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| leor_77 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Yama wrote: | Season high for rookies:
Most points : Kyle Kuzma (30), Lonzo Ball (29)
Most rebounds : Lonzo Ball (16), John Collins (13)
Most assists : Lonzo Ball (13), Lonzo Ball (13)
Most steals : Frankie (6), Lonzo Ball (5)
Most blocks : Lonzo Ball (4), Lonzo Ball (4) |
Yet Lonzo is a bust.... wait till he adjusts to the NBA game. People are going to be eating some serious crow. |
I'm not saying he's a bust, but he sucked for most of the games he played (he has very few games shooting above 30%). Cherrypicking one or two good games does nothing for your argument. |
So your response to people cherrypicking games is to cherrypick one stat? As important as it is, there's more to basketball than just shooting percentage. Darius and Pete almost verbatim refute your assertion in the latest LFR podcast: https://soundcloud.com/user-456873398/one-month-in |
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LakerLogic
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Posts: 17886
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Main thing for rookies is to show flashes. Lonzo has done plenty of that, period.
For all the hype, DSJ's numbers are not much better. |
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Nash Vegas
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Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 7239
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| leor_77 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Yama wrote: | Season high for rookies:
Most points : Kyle Kuzma (30), Lonzo Ball (29)
Most rebounds : Lonzo Ball (16), John Collins (13)
Most assists : Lonzo Ball (13), Lonzo Ball (13)
Most steals : Frankie (6), Lonzo Ball (5)
Most blocks : Lonzo Ball (4), Lonzo Ball (4) |
Yet Lonzo is a bust.... wait till he adjusts to the NBA game. People are going to be eating some serious crow. |
I'm not saying he's a bust, but he sucked for most of the games he played (he has very few games shooting above 30%). Cherrypicking one or two good games does nothing for your argument. |
Lonzo is not a bust.
He just sucks at shooting. Super sucky shooter.
There's a difference.
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16731
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| leor_77 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Yama wrote: | Season high for rookies:
Most points : Kyle Kuzma (30), Lonzo Ball (29)
Most rebounds : Lonzo Ball (16), John Collins (13)
Most assists : Lonzo Ball (13), Lonzo Ball (13)
Most steals : Frankie (6), Lonzo Ball (5)
Most blocks : Lonzo Ball (4), Lonzo Ball (4) |
Yet Lonzo is a bust.... wait till he adjusts to the NBA game. People are going to be eating some serious crow. |
I'm not saying he's a bust, but he sucked for most of the games he played (he has very few games shooting above 30%). Cherrypicking one or two good games does nothing for your argument. |
His d has been really good |
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Outspoken
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Posts: 8450
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I wonder how lonzo would've done under Byron Scott?... |
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