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TEEGUNN
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Dec 2002
Posts: 18086
Location: rocky mountain high
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 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerMindLA wrote: | Has there ever been a player that gets more excuse making?
Gets destroyed in the NCAA tournament - excuse made.
Has a horrible first workout with the Lakers - excuse made.
Has a string of horrible games - excuse made.
Playing at a historically bad level - excuse made.
Let's just be honest, Lonzo entered into the perfect situation at UCLA that inflated his value based on his perceived impact on that team. Remove him from the perfect situation and his flaws that were clearly known before are exposed.
Had someone evaluated Lonzo based on his skills, his shot and his athleticism, he would have never been drafted so high. |
He's got a TON of skill(s), a terrible shot, and plenty of athleticism. He's a work in progress but has some elite parts of his game that very few players are blessed with. He has been thrust into the spotlight unlike hardly any players ever, partly because of his father, partly because he plays for the hated Lakers. There's been plenty of positive things to be excited about with him, but apparently some were expecting an all-star player out of the gate.
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"Why do you think bad things happen, anyway???" "So we have something good to look forward to."
Jake Speed, 1986 |
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Baron Von Humongous
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Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32979
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerMindLA wrote: | Has there ever been a player that gets more excuse making?
Gets destroyed in the NCAA tournament - excuse made.
Has a horrible first workout with the Lakers - excuse made.
Has a string of horrible games - excuse made.
Playing at a historically bad level - excuse made.
Let's just be honest, Lonzo entered into the perfect situation at UCLA that inflated his value based on his perceived impact on that team. Remove him from the perfect situation and his flaws that were clearly known before are exposed.
Had someone evaluated Lonzo based on his skills, his shot and his athleticism, he would have never been drafted so high. |
Brandon Ingram last year? |
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| trashcan wrote: | He just played well against the Dubs, and decently against the nuggets, and like trash on bad legs on a b2b like everyone else on the team flying out from Denver
The Lonzo problem is the microscope he's under by people that can't get the whole scope. Even lakers fans only talk about his bad games while considering every game he scores under 10 bad like yall slaves to base10 |
Good post. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| anth2000 wrote: | | Crazy how much he was hyped. Out of the top 10 players recently drafted, where would you put him? Top 5 still or lower? |
Well, it depends on how you look at it. If you're asking based on how he is playing right now, definitely top 5. The other rookies aren't exactly burning it up, except maybe Tatum. Many of the other rookies are playing limited minutes, so it's hard to compare them.
But in the age of one-and-dones, you don't draft a kid for his rookie production. The real question is what you're going to get in about the second or third year. I would probably say top 5, but I'm not as confident as I was about a month ago. Primarily, I'm worried about the extent to which his shot and his mindset will need to be rebuilt. I'm worried that he may not have the competitive fire to overcome those problems and become a great player. And I'm worried that, even fully developed, he may not be the ideal sort of player to build around in the current NBA. |
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 17886
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Lonzo Ball or Donovan Mitchell? |
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LandsbergerRules
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Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 11197
Location: The Other Perspective
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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His biggest issue is that he seems to be folding mentally. A surprise imo considering he's handled the pressure his Dad has heaped on him pretty well in the past.
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"Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him |
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The Juggernaut
Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| LandsbergerRules wrote: | | His biggest issue is that he seems to be folding mentally. A surprise imo considering he's handled the pressure his Dad has heaped on him pretty well in the past. |
He's able to have a tough exterior but he's not mentally as strong as he seems which is a disappointment. |
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Joe Pesci
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Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Posts: 3885
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Ball was never a franchise player to begin with. To be fair, neither was kid.
A franchise guy has to be a top two (or three scorer) on a good team.
Ball will never be that, IMO.
What he will be is an excellent accentuator of talent. He’ll be fourth or fifth option on a championship team, and he’ll do it averaging at or near tripledoubleville
He’ll be an elite role player, placed in a strong position to succeed and lead, but he won’t be “built around” in the traditional sense of him being your centerpiece. |
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CantStopJM
Star Player
Joined: 03 Oct 2017
Posts: 2992
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Lonzo hasn't played how I expected him to play but at the same time, what do you expect with this roster? Lonzo thrived in summer league because he was surrounded by shooters. Obviously, his shot was a lot better(even though it was still pretty bad) but this is the worst shooting team of all time, currently last at 31% from 3. The fact that he can even average 7 assists with this roster is impressive.
Sure he can be a better scorer but that was never his game anyways. If we manage to get PG, that would help Lonzo A LOT. A reliable shooter at the 2, BI needs to focus on shooting from 3, not even making it but just shooting it. If we're lucky to get Cousins, that would help Lonzo too, a real stretch 5, not that fake (bleep) from Lopez. |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12668
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Pesci wrote: | | Ball was never a franchise player to begin with. To be fair, neither was kid. |
I think with Ball we won't know what he'll be for a few years. He needs some time to work out his jump shot and finishing, get stronger, and he needs to have the mentality that he needs to exert himself into the game more often. He's very comfortable with just being one of the background guys and he won't really take off until he tries to force matters more. We'll see where he's at in a few years.
I do think you are wrong on Kidd though. The guy was selected to 10 all-star games, 9 all-defensive teams (4 times first team), and 6 All-NBA teams (4 times first team). When you are making first team all-NBA you are a franchise player. Not to mention he was the best player on two of his three finals teams. Just because you aren't a dominate scorer doesn't mean you aren't a franchise player. Magic typically wasn't the Lakers leading scorer and he's a top three player all-time. |
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Joe Pesci
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Joined: 15 Oct 2017
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | | Joe Pesci wrote: | | Ball was never a franchise player to begin with. To be fair, neither was kid. |
I think with Ball we won't know what he'll be for a few years. He needs some time to work out his jump shot and finishing, get stronger, and he needs to have the mentality that he needs to exert himself into the game more often. He's very comfortable with just being one of the background guys and he won't really take off until he tries to force matters more. We'll see where he's at in a few years.
I do think you are wrong on Kidd though. The guy was selected to 10 all-star games, 9 all-defensive teams (4 times first team), and 6 All-NBA teams (4 times first team). When you are making first team all-NBA you are a franchise player. Not to mention he was the best player on two of his three finals teams. Just because you aren't a dominate scorer doesn't mean you aren't a franchise player. Magic typically wasn't the Lakers leading scorer and he's a top three player all-time. |
A franchise guy has to be a top two (or three) scorer on a good team.
Kidd caught lightning in a bottle on those New Jersey teams, but he’s built, “to begin with”, as I said earlier, to be surrounded by scorers and to dominate with his passing, pace, defense, and rebounding ... by my definition, he was always destined to be an elite role player on a team that wins a ring, and he did.
I see a similar fate with Ball. |
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Pau Gasol's Beard
Star Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2009
Posts: 1410
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Sad to see his teammates having his back when he’s getting punk’d and him not having theirs. He’s a rookie but Lonzo seems like the ultimate beta so far. He’ll be a good player if he ever finds his jump shot. Not sure about that fire just yet |
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LandsbergerRules
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Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 11197
Location: The Other Perspective
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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I think Kidd was great, but not good enough to be the best player on a championship squad. He would've been a helluva number two guy next to a true franchise player like Kobe, TD, Shaq, etc. I've always thought Lonzo's ceiling was similar. The 2nd or 3rd best player next to a true MVP-level talent. But he's going to have to get a helluva lot tougher mentally to get to that level.
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"Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him |
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RashardA
Star Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 1377
Location: Santa Monica
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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He's not good at all.
He looks miserable while playing.
Im still waiting to see this "leadership" Magic was raving about.
I see nothing.
Limited skill, limited desire, limited heart.
I've been watching Lakers basketball for over 30 years.
I know what great looks like and he's not it.
The Lakers actually spent a #2 pick on a role player.
A role player.
Extremely frustrating and disheartening.
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Everyting negative - pressure, challenges - is all an opportunity for me to rise.
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CantStopJM
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Joined: 03 Oct 2017
Posts: 2992
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| RashardA wrote: | He's not good at all.
He looks miserable while playing.
Im still waiting to see this "leadership" Magic was raving about.
I see nothing.
Limited skill, limited desire, limited heart.
I've been watching Lakers basketball for over 30 years.
I know what great looks like and he's not it.
The Lakers actually spent a #2 pick on a role player.
A role player.
Extremely frustrating and disheartening. |
Literally all of this was said about Russell and Ingram. |
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dont_be_a_wuss
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Joined: 29 Mar 2012
Posts: 21455
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| The way he continues to take three pointers, not always when open, despite his terribly poor three point shooting signals what else if not confidence? |
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adkindo
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Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | Lonzo Ball or Donovan Mitchell? |
tough one...would like to think Ball still has a higher ceiling, but I am unsure if that is true. Well before the draft, Vecenie talked about the amazing attitude and personal drive of Mitchell (when nobody was really even talking about him)...and so far, Vecenie appears to be correct about the guy. |
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Daphanabe
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Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2768
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Many are falling into the same trap as last year with Ingram (who at this time last year was also being called a bust, worst player in the league, etc.). You have to see the flashes and extrapolate and see what happens when they put it all together, get consistent, get stronger, get reps against NBA comp, etc.
Ball, when on, is transformative. I’m pretty bullish that that will become more and more the norm — and many on here will have egg on their face, just like with Ingram so far this year. |
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epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| RashardA wrote: | He's not good at all.
He looks miserable while playing.
Im still waiting to see this "leadership" Magic was raving about.
I see nothing.
Limited skill, limited desire, limited heart.
I've been watching Lakers basketball for over 30 years.
I know what great looks like and he's not it.
The Lakers actually spent a #2 pick on a role player.
A role player.
Extremely frustrating and disheartening. |
Hopefully, everyting negative - pressure, challenges - is all an opportunity for him to rise. |
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adkindo
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Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Daphanabe wrote: | | Ball, when on, is transformative. |
I personally have never saw anything in college or with the Lakers that supports this statement. I am wrong as much as the next guy, but I have always felt these statements were hyperbole. |
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Daphanabe
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Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2768
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | Daphanabe wrote: | | Ball, when on, is transformative. |
I personally have never saw anything in college or with the Lakers that supports this statement. I am wrong as much as the next guy, but I have always felt these statements were hyperbole. |
Phoenix game, Bucks game, GSW spurt before he hit his head, etc. Not sure how you could watch those and not see that. |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| LandsbergerRules wrote: | | His biggest issue is that he seems to be folding mentally. A surprise imo considering he's handled the pressure his Dad has heaped on him pretty well in the past. |
Unlike his dad, people around the league don't care if he fails. He's playing in a grown mans league. These guys are coming hard at him 100%. |
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Joe Pesci
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Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Posts: 3885
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | Daphanabe wrote: | | Ball, when on, is transformative. |
I personally have never saw anything in college or with the Lakers that supports this statement. I am wrong as much as the next guy, but I have always felt these statements were hyperbole. |
Truth. |
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| LandsbergerRules wrote: | | I think Kidd was great, but not good enough to be the best player on a championship squad. He would've been a helluva number two guy next to a true franchise player like Kobe, TD, Shaq, etc. I've always thought Lonzo's ceiling was similar. The 2nd or 3rd best player next to a true MVP-level talent. But he's going to have to get a helluva lot tougher mentally to get to that level. |
That's a great outcome for any player. A Pau-esque career? I'd take that any day.
I just need Lonzo to get that shooting up. I have faith he'll figure out ballhandling which to me is the only other glaring deficiency he has. |
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Billium
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 3317
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Pesci wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Daphanabe wrote: | | Ball, when on, is transformative. |
I personally have never saw anything in college or with the Lakers that supports this statement. I am wrong as much as the next guy, but I have always felt these statements were hyperbole. |
Truth. |
Maybe they mean transformative as in you have to redefine what "on" means. |
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