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MJST
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 Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| jg77 wrote: | | BizLA wrote: | | PRLakeShow wrote: | Kendall Marshall or Magic Johnson  |
Jason Kidd |
Rajon Rondo |
Lonzo Ball
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | Randle started out shooting 43% and got up to 57% by his third year without even having Lonzo's three pointer.
It's really painful to see Zo struggle on offense but he's doing fine running the offense and playing defense. If JR and BI can make such growth driving inside then I'm sure Lonzo can as well, and maybe they can even teach him.
I never thought Julius would be anything more than a football player in a basketball uniform but he's learning to use his right hand, he's passing more and no one can deny his shooting percentage. Use those two as guidelines when it all looks hopeless. |
One thing I worry about is the mentality. Point guards are usually either pass first or shoot first and they pretty much stick to it throughout their careers.
Jason Kidd, Rondo, they never developed into scorers. Kidd eventually developed a three pt shot but he never aggressively tried to score. Kidd avg 12.6 ppg throughout his career. Rondo, 10.5ppg.
I'm trying to think of a pass first pg who struggled with his shot entering the league and then eventually became a 16-17 ppg scorer.
Magic? He came into the league avg 18 ppg. Stockton? He could always shoot he just chose not to. Most he avg was 17 ppg.
Gary Payton? That could be a good example. He went from:
1st yr - 7.2 pts
2nd yr - 9.4 pts
3rd yr - 13.5 pts
4th yr - 16.5 pts
5th yr - 20.6 pts
Although, I can't say Payton struggled with his shot. He shot 45% as a rookie. 49% by his 3rd yr. Payton also wasn't really a pass first pg though.
I think it's hard to shake that pass first mentality. It makes a pg passive when looking for their shot. Since they are so passive about looking for their shot, they're probably as passive when working out (in regards to creating their own shot).
Look at Austin Rivers. That dude is very aggressive in looking for his shot. Even when he came into the league and couldn't shoot, he was very aggressive. When you look at his workouts, it's all about how to create a shot for himself.
Same thing with Jordan Clarkson. All his workouts are about how to create shots for himself.
I don't think Lonzo works out that way. Probably the most he does is workout on his spot up threes. I don't think he works out like Jordan Clarkson or Austin Rivers does (in regards to creating shots for himself).
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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OCWA
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 3660
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | jg77 wrote: | | BizLA wrote: | | PRLakeShow wrote: | | Kendall Marshall or Magic Johnson |
Jason Kidd |
Rajon Rondo |
Lonzo Ball |
Ding Ding Ding!...We have a winner. |
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Chronicle
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Pretty sure kevin ding didnt play in the nba
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OCWA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| Chronicle wrote: | | Pretty sure kevin ding didnt play in the nba |
But if he did, I'm pretty sure he would be better than Lonzo Ball. |
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BizLA
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Posts: 2368
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| jg77 wrote: | | BizLA wrote: | | PRLakeShow wrote: | | Kendall Marshall or Magic Johnson |
Jason Kidd |
Rajon Rondo |
Nah. Rajon never showed flashes of good 3pt shooting the way Lonzo has this season. |
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Joe Pesci
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Ball is an elite role-player. He’ll never average 17 a game.
What he will do is average a triple double though and when multiple rings.
He’ll never develop into a scorer like many here suggest. Randle showed at Kentucky that he was a potential franchise player who could score twenty a game in the league. Ingram showed at Duke what he could be.
Ball has shown me at UCLA that, offensively, he’s a three-point shooter and an off ball catch and shoot guy. He’ll never be a natural driver and finisher. He’ll never be a natural pull up in the midrange type of guy. It’s never been his game and it’s a major reason why he looks so unnatural when he tries these things in real games.
He can work on his game all he wants, but in the end, he’ll never be a anything close to a go-to scorer who can go get you a bucket anytime he wants.
I’ve been saying it all along. He’s a role-player, an elite one, a championship-level one, one who just may go into the Hall.
He’s an EXTREMELY unique player with extremely unique gifts, but he’ll never be a scorer. The Kidd comparisons are apt, except that Ball won’t be the same driver and finsher as Kidd, and Ball will be three times the shooter. |
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Vin
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| I don't know how anyone could be so definitive on what Lonzo can become or canno't become. |
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LandsbergerRules
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| OCWA wrote: | The most frequent comparisons are/were, Kendall Marshall..lol, Ricky Rubio and Jason Kidd. After 46 games I think it is safe to say that the Kendall Marshall comparison was ridiculous. The Rubio comparison while better than the marshall comparison, is not apt because Lonzo's athleticism is in a different league compared to Rubio's.
That brings us to Kidd. The rookie stats are very similar with Lonzo being a better shooter. Kidd was stronger than Lonzo as a rookie but I think Lonzo has better athleticism. After 46 games it looks like the Kidd comparisons were pretty accurate and with the normal development of his game Lonzo will probably be as good if not better.
Kidd shot 27% from 3 his rookie year. Chris Paul 28%. Lonzo's 3 should be fine but the FT are a concern because it looks like it could be a mental issue. |
Agreed. Marshall comparisons are ridiculous and I'm optimistic he'll keep improving where Rubio never really did. Him being mentally shook at the line is a concern. How does he get over that? Does he need to see a sports psychologist or something? Doesn't seem like something Luke and his staff can address on their own.
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PayasoLoco
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| lonzo ball is draymond of PG. needs to be 3/4th best player on a team for the team to succeed. |
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Fastbreak32
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Posts: 4746
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | jg77 wrote: | | BizLA wrote: | | PRLakeShow wrote: | | Kendall Marshall or Magic Johnson |
Jason Kidd |
Rajon Rondo |
Lonzo Ball |
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LandsbergerRules
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Pesci wrote: | Ball is an elite role-player. He’ll never average 17 a game.
What he will do is average a triple double though and when multiple rings.
He’ll never develop into a scorer like many here suggest. Randle showed at Kentucky that he was a potential franchise player who could score twenty a game in the league. Ingram showed at Duke what he could be.
Ball has shown me at UCLA that, offensively, he’s a three-point shooter and an off ball catch and shoot guy. He’ll never be a natural driver and finisher. He’ll never be a natural pull up in the midrange type of guy. It’s never been his game and it’s a major reason why he looks so unnatural when he tries these things in real games.
He can work on his game all he wants, but in the end, he’ll never be a anything close to a go-to scorer who can go get you a bucket anytime he wants.
I’ve been saying it all along. He’s a role-player, an elite one, a championship-level one, one who just may go into the Hall.
He’s an EXTREMELY unique player with extremely unique gifts, but he’ll never be a scorer. The Kidd comparisons are apt, except that Ball won’t be the same driver and finsher as Kidd, and Ball will be three times the shooter. |
Yeah, I've always thought the Kidd comparisons were pretty apt. Kidd was never a bigtime scorer, and I don't see Zo becoming one either. I see Ball as the 2nd or 3rd best player on a championship team next to one or two elite scorers/go-to guys. If he's the #1 guy on a team, it'll be like when Kidd was on the Nets: very good, but not quite good enough to win it all.
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-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him |
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LandsbergerRules
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| PayasoLoco wrote: | | lonzo ball is draymond of PG. needs to be 3/4th best player on a team for the team to succeed. |
They both do a ton of things other than score, but I think he has a little bit more scoring potential than Dray. I'm thinking Zo can average like 17-18ppg in his prime like JKidd.
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Last edited by LandsbergerRules on Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Codyb1010
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Joined: 11 Mar 2018
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| PayasoLoco wrote: | | lonzo ball is draymond of PG. needs to be 3/4th best player on a team for the team to succeed. |
>> Well he will succeed then because he will always be 4th 5th best player on our team. 4th 5th best on our team drafted number 2 overall ahahah wowwww |
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Randle started out shooting 43% and got up to 57% by his third year without even having Lonzo's three pointer.
It's really painful to see Zo struggle on offense but he's doing fine running the offense and playing defense. If JR and BI can make such growth driving inside then I'm sure Lonzo can as well, and maybe they can even teach him.
I never thought Julius would be anything more than a football player in a basketball uniform but he's learning to use his right hand, he's passing more and no one can deny his shooting percentage. Use those two as guidelines when it all looks hopeless. |
One thing I worry about is the mentality. Point guards are usually either pass first or shoot first and they pretty much stick to it throughout their careers.
Jason Kidd, Rondo, they never developed into scorers. Kidd eventually developed a three pt shot but he never aggressively tried to score. Kidd avg 12.6 ppg throughout his career. Rondo, 10.5ppg.
I'm trying to think of a pass first pg who struggled with his shot entering the league and then eventually became a 16-17 ppg scorer.
Magic? He came into the league avg 18 ppg. Stockton? He could always shoot he just chose not to. Most he avg was 17 ppg.
Gary Payton? That could be a good example. He went from:
1st yr - 7.2 pts
2nd yr - 9.4 pts
3rd yr - 13.5 pts
4th yr - 16.5 pts
5th yr - 20.6 pts
Although, I can't say Payton struggled with his shot. He shot 45% as a rookie. 49% by his 3rd yr. Payton also wasn't really a pass first pg though.
I think it's hard to shake that pass first mentality. It makes a pg passive when looking for their shot. Since they are so passive about looking for their shot, they're probably as passive when working out (in regards to creating their own shot).
Look at Austin Rivers. That dude is very aggressive in looking for his shot. Even when he came into the league and couldn't shoot, he was very aggressive. When you look at his workouts, it's all about how to create a shot for himself.
Same thing with Jordan Clarkson. All his workouts are about how to create shots for himself.
I don't think Lonzo works out that way. Probably the most he does is workout on his spot up threes. I don't think he works out like Jordan Clarkson or Austin Rivers does (in regards to creating shots for himself). |
Yeah, I'm running out of excuses or reasonable explanations for his poor shooting.
Steve Nash like Payton was another late bloomer but he was always money from three points.
As you pointed out Magic and Stockton always had the ability to score... Stockton from day one even before Mailman had Darrell Griffith, John Drew, Adrian Dantley alongside him... if either played on a terrible team, I think they could have scored 25 to 30 points a game if needed.
I wonder what actually went on during his draft workout. Did we not have any competent defenders to bring that could have exposed his startling inability to finish? How hard is it to ask... "Lonzo, can you please try to drive to the basket ten times, so we can see how you finish?" Did they just look at his hops and his long, lanky frame and say... Nah, we're good. Did they only look at film?
What did LaVar have him do in Chino Hills? Did he not spend time playing horse, practicing dunks and finding new clever ways to make creative shots as all kids do? Or did he stand there all day like a batting practice pitcher... just serving passes all day to help other kids shine. Truly mystifying stuff.
Because he is athletic, because he seems to work hard... I used the Randle example. I'm beginning to wonder if it's a reach because so many of the fundamental moves that you see other kids use, seem beyond his current abilities, however... I used the phrases, one dimensional, brute strength, bull in a china shop, over and over to describe Julius, and by sheer will he seems to be evolving into a basketball player. We are going to need that same will from Lonzo to become a competent NBA finisher.
He's only 20 and physically as well as mentally gifted... I'm going to hope we see growth by next season as we got from BI and JR. |
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Lonzo doesn't fit into any traditional archetype, that is why it is hard for fans to see what his potential is. Nobody really knows. He looks awkward finishing and shooting floaters. Only thing he is relatively comfortable doing is shooting 3s. That's streaky.
He needs to shoot the mid-range jumper like he did in that GSW game. The best case scenario he's shooting mid-range/finishing like Livingston and keeps his form on 3s with some minor tweaks.
I think the finishing will get better. I don't think he will ever be an elite iso scorer other than his step back shots. He is going to re-define the PG position and it could be a success. He certainly isn't a bust but most fans like Donovan Mitchell's game more because it's easier to appreciate scoring.
Ingram looked pretty damn awkward last year, and so did Randle his first couple of years. We'll just have to hope his skills catch up with his bball IQ. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | Lonzo doesn't fit into any traditional archetype, that is why it is hard for fans to see what his potential is. Nobody really knows. He looks awkward finishing and shooting floaters. Only thing he is relatively comfortable doing is shooting 3s. That's streaky.
He needs to shoot the mid-range jumper like he did in that GSW game. The best case scenario he's shooting mid-range/finishing like Livingston and keeps his form on 3s with some minor tweaks.
I think the finishing will get better. I don't think he will ever be an elite iso scorer other than his step back shots. He is going to re-define the PG position and it could be a success. He certainly isn't a bust but most fans like Donovan Mitchell's game more because it's easier to appreciate scoring.
Ingram looked pretty damn awkward last year, and so did Randle his first couple of years. We'll just have to hope his skills catch up with his bball IQ. |
The shooting from range issues is mostly mental... How can someone not make free throws? What I don't get is how someone that athletic can not make dunks or layups... if he could get to the rim with regularity for some easy buckets... that would help him relax with the threes and midrange shots.
Westbrook has made an entire career of that... use his athletic skills to get some easy hoops to help neutralize his poor shooting when he's chucking.
I don't compare Zo to Russ because I think Zo is a better team player, who always looks for others before himself... but he should learn from that example in that one area. If I were him, I would divide my time equally between driving to the rim and shooting the threes because as it stands now he's like the bodybuilder who always skips leg day and looks ridiculously top heavy. |
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LakerLogic
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:49 am Post subject: |
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I really think it's mental. When it comes to FTs and finishing, he doesn't seem focused. He expects to miss and seems like he doesn't really care. The only things he can control right now are defense, rebounding, pushing the pace/passing. He's got the yips when it comes to finishing and FTs. He probably still thinks his 3 ball is ok.
He definitely has some technique issues that can be fixed. His leg strength is also weak and he tries to avoid contact. At least with Ingram and Randle, they welcome contact. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| He better improve on FTs or he is gonna be benched late in games when teams resort to Hack a Zo. |
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LakerLogic
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| He doesn't need to be a Kobe scorer but good FT shooter and decent finisher, absolutely. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | He better improve on FTs or he is gonna be benched late in games when teams resort to Hack a Zo. |
That's precisely why you need a player like IT on the bench. People won't do the Hack a Zo because they know we'd take him out and use IT instead or at least make him the primary ball handler. I know IT cost us the game, but in principle that's why you'd normally have him or another backup PG of similar shooting ability. |
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BynumForThree
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:02 am Post subject: |
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It's concerning that if his three ball isn't falling then he becomes a net-negative on offense. That literally is the only way he can score considering he has no mid-range, is one of (if not) the worst finishers in the league and makes Shaq look like Steve Nash at the free throw line. If that three ball doesn't become consistent then him and the Lakers are in for some trouble, the Lakers are a worse offensive team when he's on the court compared to when he's on the bench.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balllo01/on-off/2018
Although his defense is absolutely elite.
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LakerLogic
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Even accepting his flaws, we're still not maximizing him off-ball. That is what made his finishing numbers look good at UCLA. |
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Halflife
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | It's concerning that if his three ball isn't falling then he becomes a net-negative on offense. That literally is the only way he can score considering he has no mid-range, is one of (if not) the worst finishers in the league and makes Shaq look like Steve Nash at the free throw line. If that three ball doesn't become consistent then him and the Lakers are in for some trouble, the Lakers are a worse offensive team when he's on the court compared to when he's on the bench.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balllo01/on-off/2018
Although his defense is absolutely elite. |
he had a nice floater previous game. Dont know why he doesnt use that more since its so easy for him to get in the paint. That alone can give him 4-6pts a game |
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PLATNUM
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:02 am Post subject: |
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His floater still needs work. He kind of just shotputs it up there and prays for it to fall.
Off-season is when he can work on things. Too tough to make adjustments to his shot during the season. Year two will be telling.
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