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Sentient Meat
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 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | lonzobryant wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | It's sad. Lonzo is a major piece of this team's future. We should all be rooting for his success. If he fails, the Lakers fail. |
This isn't even close to being true. |
If Lonzo turns out to be an absolute bust? that's going to hurt the team big time going forward. |
Due to dumb luck... as well as amazing draft picks by the FO... we wouldn't be that far back if Ball is a bust. Both Kuzma and Hart came out of nowhere and offset any damage to Ball's shooting woes. I love Lonzo's vision and think he will come good with his shot... but I agree that while we might not ascend to the top as quickly... thanks to Kuz and Hart, they have had the net effect of one #2 pick.
However, I want him to fix his shot, because if he does... we are in a position to compete for the title with only FA, where as before Kuz and Hart we definitely needed two.
Last edited by Sentient Meat on Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | The chest-beating has to do with me calling out Lonzo for severe limitations to his game (the Lakers are a net-negative on offense with him on the court) despite everyone here claiming he's worthy of the #1 selection, a generational talent and better than Ben Simmons. Expectations went this year from Lonzo being the ROY to now "being one of the better rebounding guards this year."
I got ridiculed for my analysis on Ball. Of course, I'm going to make people eat some crow. I don't want him to be a bust but I want people to see reality for what it is and recognize that Ball needs A LOT of work in order to live up to his #2 selection in a stacked class. I hope he gets there but the flaws have always been there. |
He has severe limitations as a scorer - which was known all along - which isn't mutually exclusive with him being a very good young player.
You analysis of him should continue to be ridiculed so long as it continues to rely on specious arguments like "they're a net-negative on offense w/him" (when they're +2.4 per 100 possessions overall w/him on the court, which is amazing for a rookie PG) and misrepresentations of other people's arguments, such as "he's one of the better rebounding guards this year" (when the argument is that he's been one of the best rebounding, passing, and defensive guards in the league, who is also loved by analytic measures).
You've set up parameters and expectations around him that overvalue scoring while undervaluing other elements of the game, and you're now patting yourself on the back for him fitting into that paradigm just as you thought he would, without wondering if you're actually capturing the player's impact in the first place. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm going to make people eat some crow. I don't want him to be a bust |
So you're going to basically root for his failure so you can "make people eat some crow?" |
I think that Lonzo has already made the “generational” and “ROY” crowd eat crow. He is a very talented guard who I think has tremendous upside. He doesn’t have to be the best ever, just continue to be a good fit on this team.
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| I thought Ingram was going to be a generational player during his rookie year... still think that he will get there. Some players are brilliant immediately... but many need three years to reach full potential. |
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lonzobryant
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm going to make people eat some crow. I don't want him to be a bust |
So you're going to basically root for his failure so you can "make people eat some crow?" |
I think that Lonzo has already made the “generational” and “ROY” crowd eat crow. He is a very talented guard who I think has tremendous upside. He doesn’t have to be the best ever, just continue to be a good fit on this team. |
Yeah, the problem is that the casual fan isn't OK with Lonzo being an outstanding role player. I think the hype Lavar sold everyone just fooled everybody on what type of player he was. I think Lonzo will be good. I'm not too worried about him.
I hope he doesn't choose to overhaul his shot and just maybe try to tweak it. If he does the former then I'll be concerned. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| AY2043 wrote: | | LakersPimp wrote: | | AY2043 wrote: | | LakersPimp wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | | Lonzo has been terrific imo. He plays winning basketball and eventually those shots will begin to fall. I actually don’t really like watching the team when he’s not playing. He does so many little things that I really don’t care too much about his scoring. We already have randle, Kuzma and Ingram to get buckets. |
To Be Honest...the most i've enjoyed the Lakers this season was when Hart started with Ingram, Kuzma, Lopez and Randle...then IT coming off the bench...its like we played so...harmoniously....the shots we took were the shots we were supposed to take...so even if we lost...we didn't beat ourselves.
I like Lonzo...but i would almost rather have Hart start currently..(when healthy) Lonzo may grow into a better player...but i hate that we have to play through so many of his growing pains when there are more effective alternatives...idk why he even started...he should have been humbled from Day 1. Thats the downfall of the NBA...the pandering to "talent" over proven skill. |
Except pretty much all the advanced metrics have Lonzo as a more impactful player than Hart (and that's not a knock on Hart, I love the dude). |
We started playing our best ball without ball....So while he is impactful with the metrics...the W's were going up without him. Now that Ingram is gone....its been a different feel...Lonzo can't step up yet without those guys...but those guys can step up without Lonzo...he is still young....so that may change... |
We also went on a 10 game losing streak immediately after he first got hurt, and the team looked like a complete mess.
We're 4-5 without BI, not exactly terrible, and about on pace with our overall record. |
We've gone 4-5 without Ingram or Hart, against teams that are a combined 80 games over .500.
The Ingram/KCP/Hart/Randle/Lopez starting lineup went 7-3 against teams that are a combined 120 games under .500. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | lonzobryant wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | It's sad. Lonzo is a major piece of this team's future. We should all be rooting for his success. If he fails, the Lakers fail. |
This isn't even close to being true. |
If Lonzo turns out to be an absolute bust? that's going to hurt the team big time going forward. |
Due to dumb luck... as well as amazing draft picks by the FO... we wouldn't be that far back if Ball is a bust. Both Kuzma and Hart came out of nowhere and offset any damage to Ball's shooting woes. I love Lonzo's vision and think he will come good with his shot... but I agree that while we might not ascend to the top as quickly... thanks to Kuz and Hart, they have had the net effect of one #2 pick.
However, I want him to fix his shot, because if he does... we are in a position to compete for the title with only FA, where as before Kuz and Hart we definitely needed two. |
if we don't get 2 max FAs ever, and Lonzo is a true "bust" (I strongly disagree), then it's the opportunity cost that will truly haunt this franchise. It will hurt.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm going to make people eat some crow. I don't want him to be a bust |
So you're going to basically root for his failure so you can "make people eat some crow?" |
I think that Lonzo has already made the “generational” and “ROY” crowd eat crow. He is a very talented guard who I think has tremendous upside. He doesn’t have to be the best ever, just continue to be a good fit on this team. |
Well, some of his biggest detractors seem to have a HOF or you're a bust at #2 paradigm. Why can't he be an all star level player and not really a HOF level player?
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm going to make people eat some crow. I don't want him to be a bust |
So you're going to basically root for his failure so you can "make people eat some crow?" |
I think that Lonzo has already made the “generational” and “ROY” crowd eat crow. He is a very talented guard who I think has tremendous upside. He doesn’t have to be the best ever, just continue to be a good fit on this team. |
I never had much of an opinion about the ROY, but I think he's absolutely on track to be a generational player. He's a Top 5 guard (not just PG, but guards in general) at his age since 1980 by BPM, and ranks remarkably high by RPM as well...all before even knowing how to utilize a jump stop properly or any number of very learnable basics. His playing style is extraordinarily unconventional, but he's remarkably productive for a 20 year old PG. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | I thought Ingram was going to be a generational player during his rookie year... still think that he will get there. Some players are brilliant immediately... but many need three years to reach full potential. |
I think that generational players are that out of the gate. But like the term “superstar”, 10 different people probably have 10 different definitions.
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lonzobryant
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:34 am Post subject: |
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With Ben Simmons you can see that he is special. With Ingram...I mean he's nice.
Just like Lonzo's vision and passing ability it's special. |
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Car54
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I thought Ingram was going to be a generational player during his rookie year... still think that he will get there. Some players are brilliant immediately... but many need three years to reach full potential. |
I think that generational players are that out of the gate. But like the term “superstar”, 10 different people probably have 10 different definitions. |
Then you dont consider Steph Curry or Yannis generational talent?
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I thought Ingram was going to be a generational player during his rookie year... still think that he will get there. Some players are brilliant immediately... but many need three years to reach full potential. |
I think that generational players are that out of the gate. But like the term “superstar”, 10 different people probably have 10 different definitions. |
Agree with you that some of us including myself has used generational too lightly... especially with Lonzo but if he gets his shot in order he will be as only Magic and Kidd have had his vision. That vision has been hard to appreciate with his horrible shooting. I remember after several years out of the gym due to work, I picked up a ball and started shooting FT. Made 60% after only a few days of practice. Hard to imagine anyone who gets paid to do that can't make 60%. But that's why I think it's only mental, and will get resolved one way or the other in the next year. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Lonzo Ball leads the league in both steals (2.6) and deflections (4.3) for the month of March.
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Defense was supposed to be his major weakness. Yet he has blown my mind on that end.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I thought Ingram was going to be a generational player during his rookie year... still think that he will get there. Some players are brilliant immediately... but many need three years to reach full potential. |
I think that generational players are that out of the gate. But like the term “superstar”, 10 different people probably have 10 different definitions. |
Then you dont consider Steph Curry or Yannis generational talent? |
No, but that is where the definitions come into play. Generational is short for one in a generation. If someone wants to expand that to include more than one player, then they would get no argument from me.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I thought Ingram was going to be a generational player during his rookie year... still think that he will get there. Some players are brilliant immediately... but many need three years to reach full potential. |
I think that generational players are that out of the gate. But like the term “superstar”, 10 different people probably have 10 different definitions. |
Then you dont consider Steph Curry or Yannis generational talent? |
No, but that is where the definitions come into play. Generational is short for one in a generation. If someone wants to expand that to include more than one player, then they would get no argument from me. |
By that logic one of Kobe or LeBron wasn’t generational. Curry changed how the game was played as much as almost anybody in the history of the game. If that’s not generational then what is? |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | I thought Ingram was going to be a generational player during his rookie year... still think that he will get there. Some players are brilliant immediately... but many need three years to reach full potential. |
I think that generational players are that out of the gate. But like the term “superstar”, 10 different people probably have 10 different definitions. |
Then you dont consider Steph Curry or Yannis generational talent? |
I think Curry is a generational player....his shooting ability alone bends the court and creates gravity that has never been seen before. Yannis is definitely not yet a generational player.....and has a long ways to go. I prefer to focus on "generational players" which is less subjective in my opinion than "generational talent". |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm going to make people eat some crow. I don't want him to be a bust |
So you're going to basically root for his failure so you can "make people eat some crow?" |
I think that Lonzo has already made the “generational” and “ROY” crowd eat crow. He is a very talented guard who I think has tremendous upside. He doesn’t have to be the best ever, just continue to be a good fit on this team. |
I never had much of an opinion about the ROY, but I think he's absolutely on track to be a generational player. He's a Top 5 guard (not just PG, but guards in general) at his age since 1980 by BPM, and ranks remarkably high by RPM as well...all before even knowing how to utilize a jump stop properly or any number of very learnable basics. His playing style is extraordinarily unconventional, but he's remarkably productive for a 20 year old PG. |
I think we can all agree that he is productive for a 20 year old PG, but GT I think you currently have a ton of land on that hill claiming that he has shown to be on track to be a generational player. I personally do not think any player from last years draft has exhibited a track of becoming a generational player as of today. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | I think we can all agree that he is productive for a 20 year old PG, but GT I think you currently have a ton of land on that hill claiming that he has shown to be on track to be a generational player. I personally do not think any player from last years draft has exhibited a track of becoming a generational player as of today. |
I'm totally comfortable with that. I think there's always going to be a massive chasm between the opposite ends of how he's perceived, because of how unconventional his style of play is, and where he contributes. |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | I think we can all agree that he is productive for a 20 year old PG, but GT I think you currently have a ton of land on that hill claiming that he has shown to be on track to be a generational player. I personally do not think any player from last years draft has exhibited a track of becoming a generational player as of today. |
I'm totally comfortable with that. I think there's always going to be a massive chasm between the opposite ends of how he's perceived, because of how unconventional his style of play is, and where he contributes. |
fwiw, I am higher on his outlook today than I was in October...maybe even significantly higher. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | I think we can all agree that he is productive for a 20 year old PG, but GT I think you currently have a ton of land on that hill claiming that he has shown to be on track to be a generational player. I personally do not think any player from last years draft has exhibited a track of becoming a generational player as of today. |
I'm totally comfortable with that. I think there's always going to be a massive chasm between the opposite ends of how he's perceived, because of how unconventional his style of play is, and where he contributes. |
fwiw, I am higher on his outlook today than I was in October...maybe even significantly higher. |
So he's up to like 8th on your 2017 draft board?  |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | I think we can all agree that he is productive for a 20 year old PG, but GT I think you currently have a ton of land on that hill claiming that he has shown to be on track to be a generational player. I personally do not think any player from last years draft has exhibited a track of becoming a generational player as of today. |
I'm totally comfortable with that. I think there's always going to be a massive chasm between the opposite ends of how he's perceived, because of how unconventional his style of play is, and where he contributes. |
fwiw, I am higher on his outlook today than I was in October...maybe even significantly higher. |
So he's up to like 8th on your 2017 draft board? |
let's not get crazy  |
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Roon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | I think we can all agree that he is productive for a 20 year old PG, but GT I think you currently have a ton of land on that hill claiming that he has shown to be on track to be a generational player. I personally do not think any player from last years draft has exhibited a track of becoming a generational player as of today. |
I'm totally comfortable with that. I think there's always going to be a massive chasm between the opposite ends of how he's perceived, because of how unconventional his style of play is, and where he contributes. |
I view him like I view(ed) Julius in a way. Lonzo has shown a lot of talent, with obvious, glaring weaknesses. Like Julius, those weaknesses are obvious and tangible, and it is entirely within his talent level to learn these things.
The difference, however, is Julius showed flashes of physical dominance, with enough skill to utilize it, and a relatively limited BBIQ. Lonzo shows just unbelievable BBIQ, with more than enough size/athleticism/coordination to utilize it. They both lack(ed) some basic fundamentals, and while that is a detriment to their game, it's also not a hard thing to fix/learn.
Julius had a low floor. Lonzo's floor is already really high, and with his tools, there are really easy, tangible steps to raise it. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Roon wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | I think we can all agree that he is productive for a 20 year old PG, but GT I think you currently have a ton of land on that hill claiming that he has shown to be on track to be a generational player. I personally do not think any player from last years draft has exhibited a track of becoming a generational player as of today. |
I'm totally comfortable with that. I think there's always going to be a massive chasm between the opposite ends of how he's perceived, because of how unconventional his style of play is, and where he contributes. |
I view him like I view(ed) Julius in a way. Lonzo has shown a lot of talent, with obvious, glaring weaknesses. Like Julius, those weaknesses are obvious and tangible, and it is entirely within his talent level to learn these things.
The difference, however, is Julius showed flashes of physical dominance, with enough skill to utilize it, and a relatively limited BBIQ. Lonzo shows just unbelievable BBIQ, with more than enough size/athleticism/coordination to utilize it. They both lack(ed) some basic fundamentals, and while that is a detriment to their game, it's also not a hard thing to fix/learn.
Julius had a low floor. Lonzo's floor is already really high, and with his tools, there are really easy, tangible steps to raise it. |
Yeah, Darius made this same point on our most recent podcast (we actually recorded this one twice so that may have been the one that got eaten by the podcast gods now that I think about it). I also made the same point that Randle had off-the-charts physical tools, whereas Lonzo's are mental. So I'm right there with you on this.
To me, Julius was always in danger of being a 17/10 guy with a negative impact on his team's chances of winning a game. Lonzo already has the floor game, and now he has to learn some of the technique stuff - often on basically the ground floor - before he's even a mildly competent scorer.
It's gonna be interesting to see, because in some areas he's probably the least developed guard prospect I've ever seen. How good can he become when he's starting basically from scratch in a few areas? I don't really know, because I've never seen it before. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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The only place you could argue Lonzo's ceiling is at a role players level would be scoring/shooting.
Everywhere else he is way ahead of the curve on.
The most interesting thing is if Lonzo made pretty much one more three a game than he does his rookie numbers would be pretty staggering. But people focus only on the scoring
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