OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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J.C. Smith
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:46 am    Post subject:

OCWA wrote:
Despite the hysteria he is still having a better rookie season than BI or DLO did.


Some numbers to support that:

Ball: 10.1 points (35.2% fg, 30.2% 3p), 7 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.9 blocks
Russell: 13.2 points (41% fg, 35.1% 3p), 3.4 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 1.2 steals, 0.2 blocks, 2.5 turnovers in 28.2 minutes
Ingram: 9.4 points (40.2% fg, 29.4% 3p), 4 rebounds, 2.1 assists, 0.6 steals, 0.5 blocks in 28.8 minutes

He's been better than Russell or Ingram's rookie year in every category other than scoring. And he scored more points and shot the three better than Ingram. But rebounding wise he doubled up Russell, nearly doubled up Inram. Assist wise he more than doubled up Russell, while more than tripling up Ingram. Defensively he is light years ahead of both of them.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:03 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Despite the hysteria he is still having a better rookie season than BI or DLO did.


Some numbers to support that:

Ball: 10.1 points (35.2% fg, 30.2% 3p), 7 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.9 blocks
Russell: 13.2 points (41% fg, 35.1% 3p), 3.4 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 1.2 steals, 0.2 blocks, 2.5 turnovers in 28.2 minutes
Ingram: 9.4 points (40.2% fg, 29.4% 3p), 4 rebounds, 2.1 assists, 0.6 steals, 0.5 blocks in 28.8 minutes

He's been better than Russell or Ingram's rookie year in every category other than scoring. And he scored more points and shot the three better than Ingram. But rebounding wise he doubled up Russell, nearly doubled up Inram. Assist wise he more than doubled up Russell, while more than tripling up Ingram. Defensively he is light years ahead of both of them.

Even though I wouldn’t have drafted him, I’m a Ball supporter, but your post here is a classic example of analyzing numbers without context.

In a vacuum, everything you’ve stated here is factual and accurate, but outside of that vacuum, in the land of context, it becomes much more “iffy”.

Ingram’s rookie year was one of the worst rookie year’s of all-time. More importantly though, Ingram, despite his rookie year, has shown in college that he didn’t have glaring deficiencies. He showed us that he could shoot, dribble, drive, finish, defend, and pass without any huge red flags attached. In fact the only red flag for Ingram was his weight — which explained his rookie struggles.

Ball, on the other hand, has shown us glaring deficiencies in college. These same glaring deficiencies have become more pronounced in the pros.

It’s easy to say Ingram was garbage as a rookie and is good now, so Ball can be just as good next year, but Ingram and Ball are two entirely different players.

Despite his horrendous rookie year, Ingram’s foundational offensive game and skillset has ALWAYS been worlds better than Ball’s.

Ingram had some things to work on after his rookie year, but most of his improvement revolved around eating lots and lots of Happy Meals over the summer. We can’t say that about young Ball.

Offensively, Ball has tremendous work ahead of him — much, much more than Ingram.

Ball, literally, has to work on EVERYTHING offensively. Your comparison is apples to oranges, IMO.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:03 am    Post subject:

True, stats in a vacuum don't tell you everything. Before I go further, I am a Laker fan. I am only posting this for perspective.

I've seen mention that Ingram is now "good," about his expanded offensive game, and using Ingram's rookie year for comparison to Ball.

Here are some advanced stats:
Before I start, I want to say how flawed advanced stats can be. PER is not the end all be all and I think places an emphasis on certain traits (scoring and shooting) over others. For example, Julius has above a 20 per this season. He is better than Horford and Draymond Green as far as PER. BPM becomes a good indicator of impact, even if it too has its limitations.

Ingram in his sophomore season (not rookie year), has a PER of 13.92. He has a -1.3 BPM. HIs defensive BPM is a +0.3 and his offensive BPM is a -1.6.
Compared to his rookie year, that is a huge improvement of +1.8 BPM. For comparison, his numbers are close to Andrew Wiggins (which says something about Wiggins I suppose -- but I'll try to not get too tangential here).

Up until two weeks ago, Ball's PER was darn close to Ingram's. Now his PER has dropped to 12.22 (which is a GREAT indicator of what PER emphasizes, but I will again, refrain from tangents). But he has a BPM of 1.4. His defensive BPM is +2.5 and his offensive BPM is a -1.1. That DBPM is bonkers for a rookie.

I'll let you go look, but the only rookie with a + BPM right now is Simmons (who is almost two years older and has a physically mature body). Not Mitchell. Not Kuzma. Not Josh Jackson. Certainly not Fox or DS Jr. He, as a rookie, is light years a better player with a bigger impact than DLO or Ingram, if you look at the advanced stats.

Now, wrap your head around this for a minute. With Ball on the floor, despite his offensive limitations, limited handle, etc., he has a positive impact on the game. With Ball being a horrendous shooter and showing an immature offensive game, he has an OBPM of -1.1. Yes, better than Ingram this year. You would think it would be worse, but then you realize his passing -- call it leading to hockey assists and scoring plays-- means his OBPM isn't totally in the crapper. Mudiay, who has come up because of Ball's shooting woes, doesn't come close when considering BPM: in his fifth season his OBPM is -3.2 and his DBPM is -1.0 which is around his average looking at his rookie year to present. And I think the "eye test" validates this (but I, again, will not wander down rabbit holes) that he in now way is like Mudiay.

Those numbers should be cause for huge optimism for a few reasons. First, Ball, I think can and will be better physically next year, which will mean stronger and he will have more energy and thus even more active than he is now. Second, if Ball works on his offense and shot (and I do think it is in him, but that's another matter), I don't think it is crazy to suggest he is a top 10 player in the league as far as advanced stats are concerned. In this day and age of raw one and dones, I think that is all you can hope for with the number 2 pick. What makes it harder is that Ball is not the norm any more. Curry and now Trae Young are what seems to be the model; high scoring, PG/SG hybrids. Ball is a throwback and the one thing he sucks at, is the one thing everyone now emphasizes more than anything. His anticipation and steals are ignored because he goes 1 for 6 from 3.

Really, all of this comes down to is patience. Discussions of trading him for an expiring contract -- given the above stats -- would be the kind of move that should put a GM in purgatory. Though, I'm sure its knee jerk reactions to losses or 2 for 15 nights that bring it out. That's being a fan. I get i. I only post some of the above for perspective.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:18 am    Post subject:

It seems to me that in most aspects, Lonzo Ball is way ahead of the curve for an NBA rookie point guard. His rebounding, assists and turnover rate are all positive, and he is actually a pretty good defender. He works very hard, gives a damn (ah-choo DLO!), gets along with his teammates, and doesn't cause drama himself (leaving Lavar out of this). Unselfishness to a fault, and he seems to understand the game far more than the average, shot-heavy PG.

My concern of course is the shooting. He needs to become at least an average shooter, which I would say would be around 44% on fg. Like most of the Laker players, I find his free throw shooting distasteful. Anything less than 75% is unacceptable, and I'd consider having him play off the bench next year if he can't get his free throw shooting together.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:02 am    Post subject:

I believe Lonzo is 9 of 57 on his last 57 3pt attempts...pretty bad.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:07 am    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Despite the hysteria he is still having a better rookie season than BI or DLO did.


Some numbers to support that:

Ball: 10.1 points (35.2% fg, 30.2% 3p), 7 rebounds, 7.2 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.9 blocks
Russell: 13.2 points (41% fg, 35.1% 3p), 3.4 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 1.2 steals, 0.2 blocks, 2.5 turnovers in 28.2 minutes
Ingram: 9.4 points (40.2% fg, 29.4% 3p), 4 rebounds, 2.1 assists, 0.6 steals, 0.5 blocks in 28.8 minutes

He's been better than Russell or Ingram's rookie year in every category other than scoring. And he scored more points and shot the three better than Ingram. But rebounding wise he doubled up Russell, nearly doubled up Inram. Assist wise he more than doubled up Russell, while more than tripling up Ingram. Defensively he is light years ahead of both of them.

Even though I wouldn’t have drafted him, I’m a Ball supporter, but your post here is a classic example of analyzing numbers without context.

In a vacuum, everything you’ve stated here is factual and accurate, but outside of that vacuum, in the land of context, it becomes much more “iffy”.

Ingram’s rookie year was one of the worst rookie year’s of all-time. More importantly though, Ingram, despite his rookie year, has shown in college that he didn’t have glaring deficiencies. He showed us that he could shoot, dribble, drive, finish, defend, and pass without any huge red flags attached. In fact the only red flag for Ingram was his weight — which explained his rookie struggles.

Ball, on the other hand, has shown us glaring deficiencies in college. These same glaring deficiencies have become more pronounced in the pros.

It’s easy to say Ingram was garbage as a rookie and is good now, so Ball can be just as good next year, but Ingram and Ball are two entirely different players.

Despite his horrendous rookie year, Ingram’s foundational offensive game and skillset has ALWAYS been worlds better than Ball’s.

Ingram had some things to work on after his rookie year, but most of his improvement revolved around eating lots and lots of Happy Meals over the summer. We can’t say that about young Ball.

Offensively, Ball has tremendous work ahead of him — much, much more than Ingram.

Ball, literally, has to work on EVERYTHING offensively. Your comparison is apples to oranges, IMO.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:13 am    Post subject:

With Randle Ingram and Kuzma we don't need Ball to be a stud on offense but he has to knock down open 3s at a decent clip. 36-40% preferable. He could be Patrick Beverly with passing skills
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:59 am    Post subject:

christopherorman wrote:
True, stats in a vacuum don't tell you everything. Before I go further, I am a Laker fan. I am only posting this for perspective.

I've seen mention that Ingram is now "good," about his expanded offensive game, and using Ingram's rookie year for comparison to Ball.

Here are some advanced stats:
Before I start, I want to say how flawed advanced stats can be. PER is not the end all be all and I think places an emphasis on certain traits (scoring and shooting) over others. For example, Julius has above a 20 per this season. He is better than Horford and Draymond Green as far as PER. BPM becomes a good indicator of impact, even if it too has its limitations.

Ingram in his sophomore season (not rookie year), has a PER of 13.92. He has a -1.3 BPM. HIs defensive BPM is a +0.3 and his offensive BPM is a -1.6.
Compared to his rookie year, that is a huge improvement of +1.8 BPM. For comparison, his numbers are close to Andrew Wiggins (which says something about Wiggins I suppose -- but I'll try to not get too tangential here).

Up until two weeks ago, Ball's PER was darn close to Ingram's. Now his PER has dropped to 12.22 (which is a GREAT indicator of what PER emphasizes, but I will again, refrain from tangents). But he has a BPM of 1.4. His defensive BPM is +2.5 and his offensive BPM is a -1.1. That DBPM is bonkers for a rookie.

I'll let you go look, but the only rookie with a + BPM right now is Simmons (who is almost two years older and has a physically mature body). Not Mitchell. Not Kuzma. Not Josh Jackson. Certainly not Fox or DS Jr. He, as a rookie, is light years a better player with a bigger impact than DLO or Ingram, if you look at the advanced stats.

Now, wrap your head around this for a minute. With Ball on the floor, despite his offensive limitations, limited handle, etc., he has a positive impact on the game. With Ball being a horrendous shooter and showing an immature offensive game, he has an OBPM of -1.1. Yes, better than Ingram this year. You would think it would be worse, but then you realize his passing -- call it leading to hockey assists and scoring plays-- means his OBPM isn't totally in the crapper. Mudiay, who has come up because of Ball's shooting woes, doesn't come close when considering BPM: in his fifth season his OBPM is -3.2 and his DBPM is -1.0 which is around his average looking at his rookie year to present. And I think the "eye test" validates this (but I, again, will not wander down rabbit holes) that he in now way is like Mudiay.

Those numbers should be cause for huge optimism for a few reasons. First, Ball, I think can and will be better physically next year, which will mean stronger and he will have more energy and thus even more active than he is now. Second, if Ball works on his offense and shot (and I do think it is in him, but that's another matter), I don't think it is crazy to suggest he is a top 10 player in the league as far as advanced stats are concerned. In this day and age of raw one and dones, I think that is all you can hope for with the number 2 pick. What makes it harder is that Ball is not the norm any more. Curry and now Trae Young are what seems to be the model; high scoring, PG/SG hybrids. Ball is a throwback and the one thing he sucks at, is the one thing everyone now emphasizes more than anything. His anticipation and steals are ignored because he goes 1 for 6 from 3.

Really, all of this comes down to is patience. Discussions of trading him for an expiring contract -- given the above stats -- would be the kind of move that should put a GM in purgatory. Though, I'm sure its knee jerk reactions to losses or 2 for 15 nights that bring it out. That's being a fan. I get i. I only post some of the above for perspective.

Good analysis my man. My opinion: Ball is a championship elite-level role player. He’ll NEVER average seventeen a game, but he’ll win a lot of rings while pundits and fans of other teams call him overrated until the cows come home.

As far as I’m concerned, your numbers here back up what I see. Ball is a guy who contributes to winning games. Despite his shooting woes, I have complete faith that he will continue to contribute to winning ... and he’ll be a forty percent three-Ball shooter one day as well (with the crooked windup).
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:28 am    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
christopherorman wrote:
True, stats in a vacuum don't tell you everything. Before I go further, I am a Laker fan. I am only posting this for perspective.

I've seen mention that Ingram is now "good," about his expanded offensive game, and using Ingram's rookie year for comparison to Ball.

Here are some advanced stats:
Before I start, I want to say how flawed advanced stats can be. PER is not the end all be all and I think places an emphasis on certain traits (scoring and shooting) over others. For example, Julius has above a 20 per this season. He is better than Horford and Draymond Green as far as PER. BPM becomes a good indicator of impact, even if it too has its limitations.

Ingram in his sophomore season (not rookie year), has a PER of 13.92. He has a -1.3 BPM. HIs defensive BPM is a +0.3 and his offensive BPM is a -1.6.
Compared to his rookie year, that is a huge improvement of +1.8 BPM. For comparison, his numbers are close to Andrew Wiggins (which says something about Wiggins I suppose -- but I'll try to not get too tangential here).

Up until two weeks ago, Ball's PER was darn close to Ingram's. Now his PER has dropped to 12.22 (which is a GREAT indicator of what PER emphasizes, but I will again, refrain from tangents). But he has a BPM of 1.4. His defensive BPM is +2.5 and his offensive BPM is a -1.1. That DBPM is bonkers for a rookie.

I'll let you go look, but the only rookie with a + BPM right now is Simmons (who is almost two years older and has a physically mature body). Not Mitchell. Not Kuzma. Not Josh Jackson. Certainly not Fox or DS Jr. He, as a rookie, is light years a better player with a bigger impact than DLO or Ingram, if you look at the advanced stats.

Now, wrap your head around this for a minute. With Ball on the floor, despite his offensive limitations, limited handle, etc., he has a positive impact on the game. With Ball being a horrendous shooter and showing an immature offensive game, he has an OBPM of -1.1. Yes, better than Ingram this year. You would think it would be worse, but then you realize his passing -- call it leading to hockey assists and scoring plays-- means his OBPM isn't totally in the crapper. Mudiay, who has come up because of Ball's shooting woes, doesn't come close when considering BPM: in his fifth season his OBPM is -3.2 and his DBPM is -1.0 which is around his average looking at his rookie year to present. And I think the "eye test" validates this (but I, again, will not wander down rabbit holes) that he in now way is like Mudiay.

Those numbers should be cause for huge optimism for a few reasons. First, Ball, I think can and will be better physically next year, which will mean stronger and he will have more energy and thus even more active than he is now. Second, if Ball works on his offense and shot (and I do think it is in him, but that's another matter), I don't think it is crazy to suggest he is a top 10 player in the league as far as advanced stats are concerned. In this day and age of raw one and dones, I think that is all you can hope for with the number 2 pick. What makes it harder is that Ball is not the norm any more. Curry and now Trae Young are what seems to be the model; high scoring, PG/SG hybrids. Ball is a throwback and the one thing he sucks at, is the one thing everyone now emphasizes more than anything. His anticipation and steals are ignored because he goes 1 for 6 from 3.

Really, all of this comes down to is patience. Discussions of trading him for an expiring contract -- given the above stats -- would be the kind of move that should put a GM in purgatory. Though, I'm sure its knee jerk reactions to losses or 2 for 15 nights that bring it out. That's being a fan. I get i. I only post some of the above for perspective.

Good analysis my man. My opinion: Ball is a championship elite-level role player. He’ll NEVER average seventeen a game, but he’ll win a lot of rings while pundits and fans of other teams call him overrated until the cows come home.

As far as I’m concerned, your numbers here back up what I see. Ball is a guy who contributes to winning games. Despite his shooting woes, I have complete faith that he will continue to contribute to winning ... and he’ll be a forty percent three-Ball shooter one day as well (with the crooked windup).


Agreed. One of the great thing about advanced stats is it let’s you see a players true impact. Actually, until the last few games where Lonzo’s shooting has been horrendous, his overall impact on the box score was +1.7 and Randle’s was +1.5. That means despite all of his warts, he was more impactful than the player that everybody here believes is our best and who is having a career season. A rookie PG having one of the worst offensive seasons ever was exceeding a high FG% and rebounding PF having a career season BECAUSE of everything else. Think right now ball has fallen to +1.5 and Randle is +1.8 now. Lots of reasons for optimism, because Ball is not going to get any worse than he is right now.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject:

Lonzo said he's going to be working on getting into the paint this off season. More so getting to the paint and improving his explosiveness etc.

Good thing to hear, for when his shot isn't falling.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:13 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Lonzo said he's going to be working on getting into the paint this off season. More so getting to the paint and improving his explosiveness etc.

Good thing to hear, for when his shot isn't falling.


If I had to pick one point of improvement for him, it would be this one, rather than 3pt shooting.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:20 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Lonzo said he's going to be working on getting into the paint this off season. More so getting to the paint and improving his explosiveness etc.

Good thing to hear, for when his shot isn't falling.


So essentially the majority of the time
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Lonzo said he's going to be working on getting into the paint this off season. More so getting to the paint and improving his explosiveness etc.

Good thing to hear, for when his shot isn't falling.
I agree that is good to hear other than transition layups we haven't seen much off the dribble moves from Zo in the paint he is fully capable of getting to the rim and developing a floater or the like to expand his game and not be so reliant on shooting 3 pointers.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject:

Fortysixn2 wrote:
Agreed. One of the great thing about advanced stats is it let’s you see a players true impact. Actually, until the last few games where Lonzo’s shooting has been horrendous, his overall impact on the box score was +1.7 and Randle’s was +1.5. That means despite all of his warts, he was more impactful than the player that everybody here believes is our best and who is having a career season. A rookie PG having one of the worst offensive seasons ever was exceeding a high FG% and rebounding PF having a career season BECAUSE of everything else. Think right now ball has fallen to +1.5 and Randle is +1.8 now. Lots of reasons for optimism, because Ball is not going to get any worse than he is right now.


I'm not sure which particular stat you are citing, but Ball's RPM value comes from his defense. He ranks 68th of 102 on offense, and he is only marginally ahead of De'Aaron Fox. I expect that most if not all of the metrics would tell you the same thing.

Anyway, your argument assumes that Randle is a standard for comparison. What you've really done is show that a lot of people on this board are greatly overrating Randle. The same metrics that you are citing will tell you that Randle isn't having that great of a year. He ranks 18th of 92 among PFs in RPM, which sounds about right to me. He wasn't very good early in the season, then started playing better down the stretch. It's a contract year. Someone is probably going to greatly overpay Randle this summer, and it might be us.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject:

Eindhoven wrote:
MJST wrote:
Lonzo said he's going to be working on getting into the paint this off season. More so getting to the paint and improving his explosiveness etc.

Good thing to hear, for when his shot isn't falling.


If I had to pick one point of improvement for him, it would be this one, rather than 3pt shooting.


His 3 pt shooting will naturally come around. He’s over 30% on the year despite how bad he’s shot it for long stretches. Rookie guards rarely shoot it well anyways and he was a great shooter in college(where a bunch of his 3s were from NBA range). His shot is the most over analyzed/criticized thing I think I’ve ever seen for a rookie in sports. I don’t worry about it much.

His problems are layups and freethrows. That needs to be his focus. He hasn’t shown an ability to finish at the NBA level AT ALL. It’s easily my biggest disappointment in his rookie year. And the sub 50% FT percentage speaks for itself.

It is good to know that even without those things he’s proven to be a starting caliber NBA PG as a 20 year old rookie. He’s a threat to average a triple double in his prime and looks like a perennial all star if he can start to finish consistently.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject:

PICKnPOP wrote:
adkindo wrote:
PICKnPOP wrote:
He’s not a scorer...we drafted one of those too if that’s what you’re looking for and he’s damn good at it, Kyle mf Kuzma!


this seems to always be the go to line in regards to Ball's lack of scoring....but if he is not a scorer, he definitely is a shooter. He averages as many or more shots per game as Randle, KCP, and Lopez...they just go in much less often. I just do not know of any other guys referred to as "not a scorer" that puts up 12 three pointers in a game....earlier in the month, he shot 13 three pointers in one game. He averages more shots per game than Jayson Tatum and De'Aaron Fox....are they also considered "not a scorer"?


They are leaving him wide open, he hurts the team even more if he passes those shots up. He’s been a shooter his entire life until this season, so I know that eventually his shot will fall consistently again. Idk what it is but I’m willing to bet it has something to do with fatigue. The kid came back from his injury lighting it up from 3 and now he can’t shoot at all. Idk but I’m really not concerned.

I feel like the people who are concerned are comparing him to other successful point guards in today’s game and he’s just not like them.
None of them can play 1-3 like zo can either.

I said this at the time of the draft (when I thought he would be paired with Russell), but I saw him as a more of a 2 guard In the half court. Now that Russell is gone I still see him as more of a Off ball player in halfcourt sets and Ingram as more the traditional point guard.

The lakers obviously want to develop him like a traditional point guard but it’s going to take time. He can’t reallt shoot pull ups, he doesn’t have a floater and he can’t finish at the basket, he can’t shoot going right and he’s not going to figure this all out over night. He’s a project in that regard, but still a great player. He will figure it out and even if he doesn’t he’s still an amazing talent.

I feel like we should appreciate him for what he is instead of hating on him for what he isn’t.

10, 7 and 7 with 2 steals and a block as a rookie that can play 1-3...amazing


my post is not a suggestion he should shoot less or more....just saying the "not a scorer" label is not an accurate description/excuse for someone that gets up as many shots as he does per game. If your letting it fly, there is an expectation that X% of them should go in.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:49 am    Post subject:

OCWA wrote:
Despite the hysteria he is still having a better rookie season than BI or DLO did.


talk about leaving all context out of a statement
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:54 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
Eindhoven wrote:
MJST wrote:
Lonzo said he's going to be working on getting into the paint this off season. More so getting to the paint and improving his explosiveness etc.

Good thing to hear, for when his shot isn't falling.


If I had to pick one point of improvement for him, it would be this one, rather than 3pt shooting.


His 3 pt shooting will naturally come around. He’s over 30% on the year despite how bad he’s shot it for long stretches. Rookie guards rarely shoot it well anyways and he was a great shooter in college(where a bunch of his 3s were from NBA range). His shot is the most over analyzed/criticized thing I think I’ve ever seen for a rookie in sports. I don’t worry about it much.

His problems are layups and freethrows. That needs to be his focus. He hasn’t shown an ability to finish at the NBA level AT ALL. It’s easily my biggest disappointment in his rookie year. And the sub 50% FT percentage speaks for itself.

It is good to know that even without those things he’s proven to be a starting caliber NBA PG as a 20 year old rookie. He’s a threat to average a triple double in his prime and looks like a perennial all star if he can start to finish consistently.


I agree with you in not really being concerned about the shot right now....but I will keep pounding that his handle is part of the problem in expanding his game, and getting to the rim.....if he improves his handle, he will have more confidence to get in tighter spaces allowing him to make more plays in the paint and focus more on finishing.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
my post is not a suggestion he should shoot less or more....just saying the "not a scorer" label is not an accurate description/excuse for someone that gets up as many shots as he does per game. If your letting it fly, there is an expectation that X% of them should go in.


This is the way of the NBA. Other teams will dare him to shoot until he shows that he can make enough shots to defeat that strategy. Luke is going to let him shoot because we’re trying to develop him.
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
adkindo wrote:
my post is not a suggestion he should shoot less or more....just saying the "not a scorer" label is not an accurate description/excuse for someone that gets up as many shots as he does per game. If your letting it fly, there is an expectation that X% of them should go in.


This is the way of the NBA. Other teams will dare him to shoot until he shows that he can make enough shots to defeat that strategy. Luke is going to let him shoot because we’re trying to develop him.


ok, but again, my point is not about how many or why he is shooting....I personally think he is shooting in the right range in regards to shot attempts....I do not recall him forcing many shots.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject:

Eindhoven wrote:
MJST wrote:
Lonzo said he's going to be working on getting into the paint this off season. More so getting to the paint and improving his explosiveness etc.

Good thing to hear, for when his shot isn't falling.


If I had to pick one point of improvement for him, it would be this one, rather than 3pt shooting.
that's all and good,, but he has to shoot better than 46% from the line.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
PICKnPOP wrote:
adkindo wrote:
PICKnPOP wrote:
He’s not a scorer...we drafted one of those too if that’s what you’re looking for and he’s damn good at it, Kyle mf Kuzma!


this seems to always be the go to line in regards to Ball's lack of scoring....but if he is not a scorer, he definitely is a shooter. He averages as many or more shots per game as Randle, KCP, and Lopez...they just go in much less often. I just do not know of any other guys referred to as "not a scorer" that puts up 12 three pointers in a game....earlier in the month, he shot 13 three pointers in one game. He averages more shots per game than Jayson Tatum and De'Aaron Fox....are they also considered "not a scorer"?


They are leaving him wide open, he hurts the team even more if he passes those shots up. He’s been a shooter his entire life until this season, so I know that eventually his shot will fall consistently again. Idk what it is but I’m willing to bet it has something to do with fatigue. The kid came back from his injury lighting it up from 3 and now he can’t shoot at all. Idk but I’m really not concerned.

I feel like the people who are concerned are comparing him to other successful point guards in today’s game and he’s just not like them.
None of them can play 1-3 like zo can either.

I said this at the time of the draft (when I thought he would be paired with Russell), but I saw him as a more of a 2 guard In the half court. Now that Russell is gone I still see him as more of a Off ball player in halfcourt sets and Ingram as more the traditional point guard.

The lakers obviously want to develop him like a traditional point guard but it’s going to take time. He can’t reallt shoot pull ups, he doesn’t have a floater and he can’t finish at the basket, he can’t shoot going right and he’s not going to figure this all out over night. He’s a project in that regard, but still a great player. He will figure it out and even if he doesn’t he’s still an amazing talent.

I feel like we should appreciate him for what he is instead of hating on him for what he isn’t.

10, 7 and 7 with 2 steals and a block as a rookie that can play 1-3...amazing


my post is not a suggestion he should shoot less or more....just saying the "not a scorer" label is not an accurate description/excuse for someone that gets up as many shots as he does per game. If your letting it fly, there is an expectation that X% of them should go in.


Semantics. Clearly, the nba has decided that the best way to defend a Lonzo ball team is to make him a scorer. Go under screens, double off of him, leave him wide open and dare him to beat you by scoring the ball. The fact that he cannot beat you on most nights proves that he is not a scorer.

As soon as he begins knocking down those wide open shots and finishing at the rim his teams will be very tough to beat. I can see him easily averaging 17-20 a game in his prime and I still won’t consider him a scorer. He’s literally just the worst scoring option on the court and you would rather him shooting it than the first, second, third or 4th options. Lopez is a bonifide scorer in this league, Kuzma is a scorer, Randle is a scorer and KCP is our most consistent 3 point threat. Make Lonzo beat you...makes sense to me. It’s not like Lonzo is jacking up shots like kobe, swaggy p, Jamal Crawford or Jordan clarkson (scorers).
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
adkindo wrote:
my post is not a suggestion he should shoot less or more....just saying the "not a scorer" label is not an accurate description/excuse for someone that gets up as many shots as he does per game. If your letting it fly, there is an expectation that X% of them should go in.


This is the way of the NBA. Other teams will dare him to shoot until he shows that he can make enough shots to defeat that strategy. Luke is going to let him shoot because we’re trying to develop him.


ok, but again, my point is not about how many or why he is shooting....I personally think he is shooting in the right range in regards to shot attempts....I do not recall him forcing many shots.


I wasn't disagreeing with you. I'm suggesting a different perspective. Ball isn't a defensive center or a three point specialist. Even if he plays off the ball more than a traditional PG, he needs to touch the ball a lot to be effective as a passer or creator. If defenses can respond by daring him to shoot the ball, that is exactly what they will do. In effect, they will force him to be a scorer. That's exactly what you're talking about, just from a different angle.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:48 pm    Post subject:

Since john Wall averaged like two steals a game i would have said he would be first team all defense as PG, and ZO 2nd team (totally serious) but Wall being out half the season WHY CAN'T a rookie make first team?
What point guard is better defensively?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject:

Christopher Walken wrote:
Since john Wall averaged like two steals a game i would have said he would be first team all defense as PG, and ZO 2nd team (totally serious) but Wall being out half the season WHY CAN'T a rookie make first team?
What point guard is better defensively?


The premise that steals equal elite defense is dated. Magic Johnson led the league in steals. Twice iirc.
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