View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
adkindo Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
|
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
BigGameHames wrote: | Do you believe Magic would have similar success to what he had in the modern NBA? |
Some qualifiers....First....Magic Johnson is an unquestioned Top 10 Player on the GOAT list, which guarantees his talent and abilities would transcend any era of the game, and he would compete at an elite level.
Still, if you look at Magic's production as just a line item......and take the faceless annual resume and dropped it into an All NBA discussion today....there are years that he was All NBA (1982-91) that may not be viewed favorably against the production of current 1st Team All NBA guards.
Again, I have zero doubt Magic's game would have adjusted easily to throw up the higher scoring numbers we see today from our PG's....I mean would we even call Magic a PG if he played today....wouldn't we cross match him to defend a forward to get more shooting and creation on the court? So much difference, it becomes a futile exercise.
Would Kidd make the same adjustments? I definitely think it is fair to assume he would have, but I also think it is fair to question if he would make them to the degree required to produce like a Harden or Curry. You can reach your own conclusion on that.....but to be clear, Kidd is not Magic Johnson, nor is the assurance that he could transcend era's as easily as Magic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, I noticed in an earlier thread BGH said this was more of a proxy discussion about Ball or to devalue Ball, and not about Kidd. Honestly, I just picked a line out of a LG users post that I thought was interesting....thought about it....and was surprised I thought it was probably accurate. I had never really thought about Kidd playing in 2018....so it was not originally related to Ball for me, but that being said, I do think if Ball is to become a All NBA level player, he will need to elevate his scoring substantially. I do think he will likely need to be near or exceed 20ish PPG. Guys like Harden, Curry, Westbrook etc. have set such a high standard in regards to individual production....and guys like Mitchell and Simmons appear on track to maintain that pace.
I am not saying 20 is a magic number...or if he averages 19/8/11 in his prime, that will not be good enough.....but I would guess it will be very difficult for a guard only scoring 15, 16 or 17 points a night to make a strong enough case against players that are putting up 25/6/8.....unless the game changes again. This past season, there were 9 PG's and 10 SG's that averaged 18 PPG or more. Definitely not only about points....but we are not being honest if we do not acknowledge scoring is becoming increasingly important for these elite recognition's/awards. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ibij Starting Rotation
Joined: 04 May 2009 Posts: 836
|
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
is it Lonzo thread or Magi, Kidd thread?? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
I just want to point out that even with Lonzo Ball missing all of those games this season, the current Laker squad is basically down 2 possessions per game compared to prime 80's Lakers pace.
By the time it was 1987 and 88, it's the SAME pace as the current team and 89-91 was basically De'Angelo Russell Laker pace. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
silkwilkes wrote: | the 88 squad played with a legit 5 in Kareem. We slowed it up in the half court and posted up Kareem or Magic. You could hand check back then so it wasn't feasible to kick and drive... or b line to the rim (not technicals for hard fouls).
Different game. Impossible to compare. Best you can do is compare speed relative to the average speed of other teams during the same period. The Lakers were incredibly fast in 88. |
More like exploiting Byron and Worthy as scorers. Scott was the leading scorer in 88. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Endless3D Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Mar 2018 Posts: 794
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
I hope I'm allowed to say this without creating controversy. I don't know about DLO's work ethic , his character issues and that doesn't even matter but it's crazy how hindsight works. DLO was my favorite Laker last year (even though I still would have taken BI over him) and I was not a fan of us trading the 2nd pick when it was looking like we already haven't drafted enough guys that could become top tier.
But looking back at it, DLO was a pretty bad fit for what Luke's offense is. This isn't to say DLO can't be a great player but even with his shooting ability (which took a step back) he would not fit in with our offense because his pace of play is slower and his style of play.
Sure you can argue that he could have been in the type of role Ingram was where he would be the secondary ball handler and slow the game down when it needs to be but I don't think we need two of those guys. Lonzo's pace and style of play makes our upside as a whole team so much higher then what it would have been as DLO with our PG.
If we had a 3rd year healthy DLO last year in place of Lonzo, I think we would have been perceived as a team with a lower ceiling. I'm so high on Lonzo despite the fact that his offense scoring wise is way below average, his effect on the team was evident. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Endless3D Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Mar 2018 Posts: 794
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | "He's also got that thing. It's hard to figure out what that thing is, but you know when people have it. It's that one thing that makes you want to pay attention to them. Whether it's confidence, whether it's this undeniable talent, whether it's the way they finish people, the poise they have... I don't know what it is, it's in all things, it's in sports, music in all venues. Theres avenues where greatness just shows itself. Some people have it, some people don't and it's a matter of what you do with it when you have it". |
This quote was originally about Conor McGregor, but I think Lonzo Ball has this 'it' on the basketball court. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Fortysixn2 Star Player
Joined: 22 Jun 2016 Posts: 2849
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
Endless3D wrote: | I hope I'm allowed to say this without creating controversy. I don't know about DLO's work ethic , his character issues and that doesn't even matter but it's crazy how hindsight works. DLO was my favorite Laker last year (even though I still would have taken BI over him) and I was not a fan of us trading the 2nd pick when it was looking like we already haven't drafted enough guys that could become top tier.
But looking back at it, DLO was a pretty bad fit for what Luke's offense is. This isn't to say DLO can't be a great player but even with his shooting ability (which took a step back) he would not fit in with our offense because his pace of play is slower and his style of play.
Sure you can argue that he could have been in the type of role Ingram was where he would be the secondary ball handler and slow the game down when it needs to be but I don't think we need two of those guys. Lonzo's pace and style of play makes our upside as a whole team so much higher then what it would have been as DLO with our PG.
If we had a 3rd year healthy DLO last year in place of Lonzo, I think we would have been perceived as a team with a lower ceiling. I'm so high on Lonzo despite the fact that his offense scoring wise is way below average, his effect on the team was evident. |
Not to turn this into a DLO thread, but to be effective in this system you need to be able to play defense and play very quickly. Our team is built on the fact that we are going to be faster than you, be in better shape than you and we are going to defend, hit 3’s and run. DLO is in average to poor condition, plays extremely poor defense and his 3 point shooting went into the tank this year. Who knows if we would have progressed here, but he’s on his way to being a pretty significant disappointment with the #2 pick.
I guess most people who have at least liked to see DLO at the SG position in place of KCP, but KCP had a superior year in every single category vs DLO except for assists. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dr. Funkbot Star Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2001 Posts: 8188 Location: Eagle Rock
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
Don't worry, Lonzo will be back next season to silence all of the doubters. The kid is a gym rat and super coachable on all accounts, hell he is a coach on floor. You don't play the kind of defense that he does, go after the rebounds that he does on top of running the offense and not have a good work ethic. Not sure where the work ethic questions are coming from. _________________ R.I.P. Doc Buss |
|
Back to top |
|
|
BigGameHames Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015 Posts: 7982
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dr. Funkbot wrote: | Don't worry, Lonzo will be back next season to silence all of the doubters. The kid is a gym rat and super coachable on all accounts, hell he is a coach on floor. You don't play the kind of defense that he does, go after the rebounds that he does on top of running the offense and not have a good work ethic. Not sure where the work ethic questions are coming from. |
I see why some are skeptical just because he missed a lot of time and I think he showed signs of running out of gas towards the end of the year. His dads also been his personal trainer most of his life and I don’t think many believe it’s good for Lonzo if that remains the case. I don’t see any of it as an issue though. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
al242 Star Player
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 Posts: 3120
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dr. Funkbot wrote: | Don't worry, Lonzo will be back next season to silence all of the doubters. The kid is a gym rat and super coachable on all accounts, hell he is a coach on floor. You don't play the kind of defense that he does, go after the rebounds that he does on top of running the offense and not have a good work ethic. Not sure where the work ethic questions are coming from. |
Proof...or you're just making this up. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dr. Funkbot Star Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2001 Posts: 8188 Location: Eagle Rock
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
BigGameHames wrote: | Dr. Funkbot wrote: | Don't worry, Lonzo will be back next season to silence all of the doubters. The kid is a gym rat and super coachable on all accounts, hell he is a coach on floor. You don't play the kind of defense that he does, go after the rebounds that he does on top of running the offense and not have a good work ethic. Not sure where the work ethic questions are coming from. |
I see why some are skeptical just because he missed a lot of time and I think he showed signs of running out of gas towards the end of the year. His dads also been his personal trainer most of his life and I don’t think many believe it’s good for Lonzo if that remains the case. I don’t see any of it as an issue though. |
Yes, that is probably what people are referring to. Many rookies hit the rookie wall. Zo is no different. Does not mean he has a poor work ethic it just means that his body is not used to playing 3 times as many games as he did in college. Kuz and Hart are a few years older, that helped them get through the wall.
The FO shut him down when we were out of the playoff picture. I am sure he would have come back had we been in the hunt for the 8'th seed, same with BI.
From all accounts Zo loves to play basket ball. It is his refuge- from his Dad probably. He spends tons of time in the gym and obviously has spent a lot of time in the film room learning the intricacies of the game. His Bball IQ is higher than a lot of vets. You don't get that with a poor work ethic. _________________ R.I.P. Doc Buss |
|
Back to top |
|
|
splashmtn Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2016 Posts: 3961
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dr. Funkbot wrote: | BigGameHames wrote: | Dr. Funkbot wrote: | Don't worry, Lonzo will be back next season to silence all of the doubters. The kid is a gym rat and super coachable on all accounts, hell he is a coach on floor. You don't play the kind of defense that he does, go after the rebounds that he does on top of running the offense and not have a good work ethic. Not sure where the work ethic questions are coming from. |
I see why some are skeptical just because he missed a lot of time and I think he showed signs of running out of gas towards the end of the year. His dads also been his personal trainer most of his life and I don’t think many believe it’s good for Lonzo if that remains the case. I don’t see any of it as an issue though. |
Yes, that is probably what people are referring to. Many rookies hit the rookie wall. Zo is no different. Does not mean he has a poor work ethic it just means that his body is not used to playing 3 times as many games as he did in college. Kuz and Hart are a few years older, that helped them get through the wall.
The FO shut him down when we were out of the playoff picture. I am sure he would have come back had we been in the hunt for the 8'th seed, same with BI.
From all accounts Zo loves to play basket ball. It is his refuge- from his Dad probably. He spends tons of time in the gym and obviously has spent a lot of time in the film room learning the intricacies of the game. His Bball IQ is higher than a lot of vets. You don't get that with a poor work ethic. | stop the bolded. how is it his refuge from his dad when his dad is one of the main reasons he's playing basketball? his dad is his trainer, his coach half the time while he's playing basketball. lol. stop it lavar haters. stop it . thats the man's dad. leave that relationship alone. dont insert what you would do into that relationship. that aint your pops. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
splashmtn Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2016 Posts: 3961
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
BigGameHames wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | jonnybravo wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | Mamba Mentality wrote: | With all this talk about Kidd, I guess Magic isn't as good as the guards in the current NBA with his career stat line of 19, 11, 7. Players play to how the game is played at that time. With it being more face paced now, you don't think Kidd and Magic could adjust to this? Btw, if the debate is on sheer stats alone on how they produced, then no Kidd would not be All-NBA. But I agree with an earlier post mentioning that his stats would be just as inflated as the players today if he were playing in this era. |
Magic played at a higher pace than NBA teams do now |
Magic played at a higher pace than SOME teams do now. The 88 Lakers pace was 99.1. Our squad this year was at 100.3. Even a slow team like Memphis today plays at 95 clip. League average this season was 97.3. Magic's 88' squad would be among the faster teams in the league today but doesn't resemble anything close to an outlier in terms of pace. |
From the time that Magic joined the Lakers in 1979 through 1989 the Laker pace was over 100 with the exception of the 88 team. Most of those seasons they were over 101. |
Do you believe Magic would have similar success to what he had in the modern NBA? | if ben simmons is the closest thing you've seen to magic. what do you think the real thing would do in today's nba? Think about that for a moment. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mamba Mentality Star Player
Joined: 04 May 2017 Posts: 3077 Location: The Left Coast
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
splashmtn wrote: | BigGameHames wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | jonnybravo wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | Mamba Mentality wrote: | With all this talk about Kidd, I guess Magic isn't as good as the guards in the current NBA with his career stat line of 19, 11, 7. Players play to how the game is played at that time. With it being more face paced now, you don't think Kidd and Magic could adjust to this? Btw, if the debate is on sheer stats alone on how they produced, then no Kidd would not be All-NBA. But I agree with an earlier post mentioning that his stats would be just as inflated as the players today if he were playing in this era. |
Magic played at a higher pace than NBA teams do now |
Magic played at a higher pace than SOME teams do now. The 88 Lakers pace was 99.1. Our squad this year was at 100.3. Even a slow team like Memphis today plays at 95 clip. League average this season was 97.3. Magic's 88' squad would be among the faster teams in the league today but doesn't resemble anything close to an outlier in terms of pace. |
From the time that Magic joined the Lakers in 1979 through 1989 the Laker pace was over 100 with the exception of the 88 team. Most of those seasons they were over 101. |
Do you believe Magic would have similar success to what he had in the modern NBA? | if ben simmons is the closest thing you've seen to magic. what do you think the real thing would do in today's nba? Think about that for a moment. |
Magic would straight dominate and show everyone up. Simmons is way more athletic than Magic was... but that also isn't as important as IQ IMO. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
silkwilkes Star Player
Joined: 15 Jul 2002 Posts: 6937 Location: searching for the mojo of Dr. Buss
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Mike@LG wrote: | silkwilkes wrote: | the 88 squad played with a legit 5 in Kareem. We slowed it up in the half court and posted up Kareem or Magic. You could hand check back then so it wasn't feasible to kick and drive... or b line to the rim (not technicals for hard fouls).
Different game. Impossible to compare. Best you can do is compare speed relative to the average speed of other teams during the same period. The Lakers were incredibly fast in 88. |
More like exploiting Byron and Worthy as scorers. Scott was the leading scorer in 88. |
But the offense was almost always initiated via either Kareem or Magic posting up... mostly Magic at that point. _________________ "He may say it's not you, it's him.... but it's really you." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
giordan0 Star Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 1013
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Is LaVar qualified as an athletic trainer and secondly, if he was grooming these kids to be NBA players - whats with the bad diets in that household. It's not like they were low socio-economic background living in Chino (with Tina Ball also being an athletic director in her high school role) not having access to healthier food options.
Just not the best of foundations there. _________________
_____________________________________
#MPLStheoriginallakeshow
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Endless3D Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Mar 2018 Posts: 794
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
giordan0 wrote: | Is LaVar qualified as an athletic trainer and secondly, if he was grooming these kids to be NBA players - whats with the bad diets in that household. It's not like they were low socio-economic background living in Chino (with Tina Ball also being an athletic director in her high school role) not having access to healthier food options.
Just not the best of foundations there. |
He's a good athletic trainer and basketball coach up to the high school level, dude's a trainer for a bunch of kids in the Chino Hills area. Some of his philosophy actually makes sense, and he's good at instilling confidence.
But right when Zo hit NCAA, Lavar was in over his head. Now in the NBA? No chance he can be qualified enough. Lavar just doesn't have the right information/knowledge to be a good coach. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
silkwilkes Star Player
Joined: 15 Jul 2002 Posts: 6937 Location: searching for the mojo of Dr. Buss
|
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You don't want to take the fun out of life for kids... let them eat what they want as long as they're training hard.
Basketball isn't a profession until you get to the NBA. _________________ "He may say it's not you, it's him.... but it's really you." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SDLakersFan Star Player
Joined: 01 Apr 2012 Posts: 2044
|
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Not gonna lie...its depressing watching Donnavan Mitchell ball out like that and knowing we drunk the kool-aid on Lonzo. I hated Russell but can't help but wonder how we'd look out there with
Zubac / Randle / Ingram / Mitchell / Russell
or
Zubac / Randle / Ingram / Hart / Mitchell |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Car54 Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 14424
|
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dr. Funkbot wrote: | Don't worry, Lonzo will be back next season to silence all of the doubters. The kid is a gym rat and super coachable on all accounts, hell he is a coach on floor. You don't play the kind of defense that he does, go after the rebounds that he does on top of running the offense and not have a good work ethic. Not sure where the work ethic questions are coming from. |
Are you sure he’s not a studio rat? Lol _________________ Coach Vogel, Kidd, Hollins
Max slot : Kawhi |
|
Back to top |
|
|
FanOfFour Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 1761
|
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
After he got drafted he rented an apartment near the practice facility and was there every day. Look it up. During the season, no idea. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
CantStopJM Star Player
Joined: 03 Oct 2017 Posts: 2992
|
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
SDLakersFan wrote: | Not gonna lie...its depressing watching Donnavan Mitchell ball out like that and knowing we drunk the kool-aid on Lonzo. I hated Russell but can't help but wonder how we'd look out there with
Zubac / Randle / Ingram / Mitchell / Russell
or
Zubac / Randle / Ingram / Hart / Mitchell |
Any lineup that has Zubac as a starter is hard to imagine and actually painful. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Posts: 32767
|
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Car54 wrote: | Dr. Funkbot wrote: | Don't worry, Lonzo will be back next season to silence all of the doubters. The kid is a gym rat and super coachable on all accounts, hell he is a coach on floor. You don't play the kind of defense that he does, go after the rebounds that he does on top of running the offense and not have a good work ethic. Not sure where the work ethic questions are coming from. |
Are you sure he’s not a studio rat? Lol |
Jimmy Butler said he literally spends every minute outside of practice playing domino's. Lonzo writes nursery rhymes and takes an hour to make a song like all those rappers say. It's called a hobby |
|
Back to top |
|
|
epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
|
Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So sad that Fultz, Tatum and Don are getting playing ex |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|