|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
where24happens
Star Player
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 3410
|
 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| If we re-did the draft we would obviously take Fox over Lonzo, it's not even close at this point. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ibij
Starting Rotation
Joined: 04 May 2009
Posts: 836
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
some1 plz makes the time machine!!
so, all fox lovers can take him instead ball. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse
Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012
Posts: 32767
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| where24happens wrote: | | If we re-did the draft we would obviously take Fox over Lonzo, it's not even close at this point. |
no.
players on teams with no stars have the chance to do a lottt more. The Kings will be a bottom 10 team this year, and there's a lot more season to really see what Fox is. Tonight Fox got nothing but praise for going like 1-10 with 4pts..
Fox has had a better start to the year, but there are a lot of factors and a lot of year left. Year 3 is also very telling. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LavarBall
Sixth Man
Joined: 11 Nov 2018
Posts: 27
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | where24happens wrote: | | If we re-did the draft we would obviously take Fox over Lonzo, it's not even close at this point. |
no.
players on teams with no stars have the chance to do a lottt more. The Kings will be a bottom 10 team this year, and there's a lot more season to really see what Fox is. Tonight Fox got nothing but praise for going like 1-10 with 4pts..
Fox has had a better start to the year, but there are a lot of factors and a lot of year left. Year 3 is also very telling. |
I think is funny how it works.
When Lonzo was doing bad last year, it was because he had no stars to pass the ball to or create for him open shots.
When Fox averages 18 - 7 and has his team at 8-7 it is because he has no stars.
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yellow
Starting Rotation
Joined: 31 Oct 2018
Posts: 265
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | where24happens wrote: | | If we re-did the draft we would obviously take Fox over Lonzo, it's not even close at this point. |
no.
players on teams with no stars have the chance to do a lottt more. The Kings will be a bottom 10 team this year, and there's a lot more season to really see what Fox is. Tonight Fox got nothing but praise for going like 1-10 with 4pts..
Fox has had a better start to the year, but there are a lot of factors and a lot of year left. Year 3 is also very telling. |
You judge off of available information and Fox is playing much better basketball. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26386
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LakersPimp wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | OK Ball Haters
D fox went 1-10 0-4 from 3 and only 4pts tonight.
Where are the guys claiming he was better? |
you didn't watch the game...he had 13 assists and had control of the tempo...he had command...he was a leader on the floor...not a passive soldier...like our dear lonzo |
"passive soldier" again, you aren't talking about defense, rebounding and passing are you? Cause Lonzo is anything but with those things.
So it seems Fox gets credit for "doing the extra things when his shot isn't falling" yet Lonzo doesn't get that when he does all of those things at a higher level than Fox?
Seems we see how it works.
_________________
How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse
Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012
Posts: 32767
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LavarBall wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | where24happens wrote: | | If we re-did the draft we would obviously take Fox over Lonzo, it's not even close at this point. |
no.
players on teams with no stars have the chance to do a lottt more. The Kings will be a bottom 10 team this year, and there's a lot more season to really see what Fox is. Tonight Fox got nothing but praise for going like 1-10 with 4pts..
Fox has had a better start to the year, but there are a lot of factors and a lot of year left. Year 3 is also very telling. |
I think is funny how it works.
When Lonzo was doing bad last year, it was because he had no stars to pass the ball to or create for him open shots.
When Fox averages 18 - 7 and has his team at 8-7 it is because he has no stars.
|
Zo had a much much better year last year. He is a passer, they do best w better players around them. It’s been 15 games this year. Fox gets to do what he wants on the court.
He’s good but you can’t compare the two apples to apples man |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sina
Star Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2015
Posts: 1812
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I’m fine with Ball. He is an elite passer and no need to dominate the ball. It fits James and the team. His defense is much needed too |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakersPimp
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 2210
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MJST wrote: | | LakersPimp wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | OK Ball Haters
D fox went 1-10 0-4 from 3 and only 4pts tonight.
Where are the guys claiming he was better? |
you didn't watch the game...he had 13 assists and had control of the tempo...he had command...he was a leader on the floor...not a passive soldier...like our dear lonzo |
"passive soldier" again, you aren't talking about defense, rebounding and passing are you? Cause Lonzo is anything but with those things.
So it seems Fox gets credit for "doing the extra things when his shot isn't falling" yet Lonzo doesn't get that when he does all of those things at a higher level than Fox?
Seems we see how it works. |
It seems Lonzo is best doing all the little things....this year he has had little true impact on games...getting mist of his stats in the first half. When has he stepped to the line and hit clutch free throws? He is a decent player...but I want my pg to be a leader. Not a role player. The amount of excuses made for Lonzo is amazing. And these are coming from people who loved Kobe....and magic...and nick van exel....the blasphemy |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakersPimp
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 2210
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sina wrote: | | I’m fine with Ball. He is an elite passer and no need to dominate the ball. It fits James and the team. His defense is much needed too |
this is an offense dominated league....for all his defense its like playing 4 on 5 on offense. Id take offense over d the way the game is now. He puts little pressure on his man....his defender saves so much energy. I would be curious to see the stats of opposing guards in the 2nd half against us when Lonzo plays big first half mins. I think that's why Luke plays more rondo in the 2nd half....for the defense to expend more energy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lonzo was way better their rookie years, he has offseason surgery and Fox is better than him for 15 games and it becomes obvious we should’ve picked him? Even more reactionary than usual. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
governator
Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25092
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LakersPimp wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | LakersPimp wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | OK Ball Haters
D fox went 1-10 0-4 from 3 and only 4pts tonight.
Where are the guys claiming he was better? |
you didn't watch the game...he had 13 assists and had control of the tempo...he had command...he was a leader on the floor...not a passive soldier...like our dear lonzo |
"passive soldier" again, you aren't talking about defense, rebounding and passing are you? Cause Lonzo is anything but with those things.
So it seems Fox gets credit for "doing the extra things when his shot isn't falling" yet Lonzo doesn't get that when he does all of those things at a higher level than Fox?
Seems we see how it works. |
It seems Lonzo is best doing all the little things....this year he has had little true impact on games...getting mist of his stats in the first half. When has he stepped to the line and hit clutch free throws? He is a decent player...but I want my pg to be a leader. Not a role player. The amount of excuses made for Lonzo is amazing. And these are coming from people who loved Kobe....and magic...and nick van exel....the blasphemy |
dude shut down Dame Dolla, cmon man |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KeepItRealOrElse
Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012
Posts: 32767
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| governator wrote: | | LakersPimp wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | LakersPimp wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | OK Ball Haters
D fox went 1-10 0-4 from 3 and only 4pts tonight.
Where are the guys claiming he was better? |
you didn't watch the game...he had 13 assists and had control of the tempo...he had command...he was a leader on the floor...not a passive soldier...like our dear lonzo |
"passive soldier" again, you aren't talking about defense, rebounding and passing are you? Cause Lonzo is anything but with those things.
So it seems Fox gets credit for "doing the extra things when his shot isn't falling" yet Lonzo doesn't get that when he does all of those things at a higher level than Fox?
Seems we see how it works. |
It seems Lonzo is best doing all the little things....this year he has had little true impact on games...getting mist of his stats in the first half. When has he stepped to the line and hit clutch free throws? He is a decent player...but I want my pg to be a leader. Not a role player. The amount of excuses made for Lonzo is amazing. And these are coming from people who loved Kobe....and magic...and nick van exel....the blasphemy |
dude shut down Dame Dolla, cmon man |
Had 2 steals and even more great defensive plays in the clutch vs Denver, and hit the 3 over Jokic to help seal it |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MJST wrote: | "passive soldier" again, you aren't talking about defense, rebounding and passing are you? Cause Lonzo is anything but with those things.
So it seems Fox gets credit for "doing the extra things when his shot isn't falling" yet Lonzo doesn't get that when he does all of those things at a higher level than Fox?
Seems we see how it works. |
This is one of the reasons why I like RPM. It cuts through a lot of the fog because it doesn't involve box score stats. If someone is really doing a lot of little extra things that affect the game, RPM should pick it up.
Fox: +2.62 ORPM, -0.72 DRPM, +1.90 RPM (12th of 90)
Ball: -0.34 ORPM. -0.19 DRPM, -0.53 RPM (33rd of 90)
So Ball is a little better on defense, but way below his defensive impact from last year. Fox just blows Ball away on offense, even with all of those supposed invisible intangibles that don't show up in the box score.
So far, the best comp for Fox is Jrue Holiday, who is 13th:
Holiday: +2.39 ORPM. -0.63 DRPM, +1.76 RPM
So far, the best comp for Ball is Ricky Rubio, who is 34th:
Rubio: -0.68 ORPM, +0.13 DRPM. -0.55 RPM
All of that is consistent with the eyeball test for me, except that Rubio gives a lot more consistent effort than Ball.
It's a different question is ask what kind of player Ball will become some day. He could wind up as a better player than Fox. After all, Ball was a better player than Fox last year. Right now, though, Fox is the better player. It really isn't close. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | MJST wrote: | "passive soldier" again, you aren't talking about defense, rebounding and passing are you? Cause Lonzo is anything but with those things.
So it seems Fox gets credit for "doing the extra things when his shot isn't falling" yet Lonzo doesn't get that when he does all of those things at a higher level than Fox?
Seems we see how it works. |
This is one of the reasons why I like RPM. It cuts through a lot of the fog because it doesn't involve box score stats. If someone is really doing a lot of little extra things that affect the game, RPM should pick it up.
Fox: +2.62 ORPM, -0.72 DRPM, +1.90 RPM (12th of 90)
Ball: -0.34 ORPM. -0.19 DRPM, -0.53 RPM (33rd of 90)
So Ball is a little better on defense, but way below his defensive impact from last year. Fox just blows Ball away on offense, even with all of those supposed invisible intangibles that don't show up in the box score.
So far, the best comp for Fox is Jrue Holiday, who is 13th:
Holiday: +2.39 ORPM. -0.63 DRPM, +1.76 RPM
So far, the best comp for Ball is Ricky Rubio, who is 34th:
Rubio: -0.68 ORPM, +0.13 DRPM. -0.55 RPM
All of that is consistent with the eyeball test for me, except that Rubio gives a lot more consistent effort than Ball.
It's a different question is ask what kind of player Ball will become some day. He could wind up as a better player than Fox. After all, Ball was a better player than Fox last year. Right now, though, Fox is the better player. It really isn't close. |
I'm a Lonzo fan and I have to agree, as of now Fox is much better.
Doesn't mean career wise it'll pan out that way but as of now, yeah, Fox.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerSD
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23788
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
Lonzo was a key contributor against the Nuggets and last game against Portland. If he can consistently provide the same impact, he will help the Lakers make the playoffs.
Not sure they win those games without him. Not only the defense, but also big shots at critical times in the game. We just need more of it...can’t disappear as much as he does.
He’s also not the only one either. Ingram needs to show up consistently and Kuzma has got to find a way on defense if he wants to stay on the court. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bol
Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 4045
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | MJST wrote: | "passive soldier" again, you aren't talking about defense, rebounding and passing are you? Cause Lonzo is anything but with those things.
So it seems Fox gets credit for "doing the extra things when his shot isn't falling" yet Lonzo doesn't get that when he does all of those things at a higher level than Fox?
Seems we see how it works. |
This is one of the reasons why I like RPM. It cuts through a lot of the fog because it doesn't involve box score stats. If someone is really doing a lot of little extra things that affect the game, RPM should pick it up.
Fox: +2.62 ORPM, -0.72 DRPM, +1.90 RPM (12th of 90)
Ball: -0.34 ORPM. -0.19 DRPM, -0.53 RPM (33rd of 90)
So Ball is a little better on defense, but way below his defensive impact from last year. Fox just blows Ball away on offense, even with all of those supposed invisible intangibles that don't show up in the box score.
So far, the best comp for Fox is Jrue Holiday, who is 13th:
Holiday: +2.39 ORPM. -0.63 DRPM, +1.76 RPM
So far, the best comp for Ball is Ricky Rubio, who is 34th:
Rubio: -0.68 ORPM, +0.13 DRPM. -0.55 RPM
All of that is consistent with the eyeball test for me, except that Rubio gives a lot more consistent effort than Ball.
It's a different question is ask what kind of player Ball will become some day. He could wind up as a better player than Fox. After all, Ball was a better player than Fox last year. Right now, though, Fox is the better player. It really isn't close. |
There's also, I think, a legitimate question whether Fox would be doing what he's doing if he had to share the ball and the court with LeBron, or even Ingram for that matter. I watched some of that game last night and Fox gets to do absolutely anything he wants, there's no superstar dominating the game or below average player pounding the ball and iso'ing for midrange jumpers. If Lonzo shot 1-10--well, he wouldn't because he'd be on the bench before he got to that point. The two players are in vastly different situations, and Lonzo didn't just get worse for no reason.
Sac actually played a run and gun style that would suit Lonzo very well. I'll bet if we traded him for Fox right now as so many wish we could, he'd look great in that system, while Fox would struggle in the limited role Lonzo has to play. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bol wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | MJST wrote: | "passive soldier" again, you aren't talking about defense, rebounding and passing are you? Cause Lonzo is anything but with those things.
So it seems Fox gets credit for "doing the extra things when his shot isn't falling" yet Lonzo doesn't get that when he does all of those things at a higher level than Fox?
Seems we see how it works. |
This is one of the reasons why I like RPM. It cuts through a lot of the fog because it doesn't involve box score stats. If someone is really doing a lot of little extra things that affect the game, RPM should pick it up.
Fox: +2.62 ORPM, -0.72 DRPM, +1.90 RPM (12th of 90)
Ball: -0.34 ORPM. -0.19 DRPM, -0.53 RPM (33rd of 90)
So Ball is a little better on defense, but way below his defensive impact from last year. Fox just blows Ball away on offense, even with all of those supposed invisible intangibles that don't show up in the box score.
So far, the best comp for Fox is Jrue Holiday, who is 13th:
Holiday: +2.39 ORPM. -0.63 DRPM, +1.76 RPM
So far, the best comp for Ball is Ricky Rubio, who is 34th:
Rubio: -0.68 ORPM, +0.13 DRPM. -0.55 RPM
All of that is consistent with the eyeball test for me, except that Rubio gives a lot more consistent effort than Ball.
It's a different question is ask what kind of player Ball will become some day. He could wind up as a better player than Fox. After all, Ball was a better player than Fox last year. Right now, though, Fox is the better player. It really isn't close. |
There's also, I think, a legitimate question whether Fox would be doing what he's doing if he had to share the ball and the court with LeBron, or even Ingram for that matter. I watched some of that game last night and Fox gets to do absolutely anything he wants, there's no superstar dominating the game or below average player pounding the ball and iso'ing for midrange jumpers. If Lonzo shot 1-10--well, he wouldn't because he'd be on the bench before he got to that point. The two players are in vastly different situations, and Lonzo didn't just get worse for no reason.
Sac actually played a run and gun style that would suit Lonzo very well. I'll bet if we traded him for Fox right now as so many wish we could, he'd look great in that system, while Fox would struggle in the limited role Lonzo has to play. |
But Lonzo isn't a high usage/pound the rock guy in the first place. I actually think he can be a great fit with LBJ for that reason.
He needs to be more of a contributor scoring wise so that teams will at least respect his shot/scoring ability. I like what I'm seeing defensively and his passing is always on point.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
defense
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 39536
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| He keeps getting 25 minutes a game he's going nowhere fast and i wouldn't be shocked if he was eventually traded. I do think where ever he ends up he will eventually become a good player. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144472
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| defense wrote: | | He keeps getting 25 minutes a game he's going nowhere fast and i wouldn't be shocked if he was eventually traded. I do think where ever he ends up he will eventually become a good player. |
Which lends itself to player development issues. Randle has developed nicely but he is a bulldog, no team would have stifled his development. Not so much for the other young players. Either we didn’t draft well or we don’t develop well.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
george w kush
Star Player
Joined: 05 Jun 2009
Posts: 1171
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| It is pathetic all the excuses Ball lovers make for this guy. I think he air balled a layup attempt against Orlando. Has zero game inside the paint and can’t make a contested layup to save his life. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| george w kush wrote: | | It is pathetic all the excuses Ball lovers make for this guy. I think he air balled a layup attempt against Orlando. Has zero game inside the paint and can’t make a contested layup to save his life. |
If you watch the Ball kids in high school, it's as if they eschew contact. Maybe the middle kid but it's b/c he's unathletic and was chubby.
It's a disservice IMO that they basically grew up shooting 3s and running fast breaks.
It's almost a miracle that Lonzo is such a good defender given his dad's basketball tactics.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | george w kush wrote: | | It is pathetic all the excuses Ball lovers make for this guy. I think he air balled a layup attempt against Orlando. Has zero game inside the paint and can’t make a contested layup to save his life. |
If you watch the Ball kids in high school, it's as if they eschew contact. Maybe the middle kid but it's b/c he's unathletic and was chubby.
It's a disservice IMO that they basically grew up shooting 3s and running fast breaks.
It's almost a miracle that Lonzo is such a good defender given his dad's basketball tactics. |
No it’s part of the reason he’s a great defender. The other two would always cherry pick while Lonzo would defend, rebound, and look to throw length of the court passes to them. His dads tactics probably hurt the other two defensively a lot but not Lonzo. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| BigGameHames wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | george w kush wrote: | | It is pathetic all the excuses Ball lovers make for this guy. I think he air balled a layup attempt against Orlando. Has zero game inside the paint and can’t make a contested layup to save his life. |
If you watch the Ball kids in high school, it's as if they eschew contact. Maybe the middle kid but it's b/c he's unathletic and was chubby.
It's a disservice IMO that they basically grew up shooting 3s and running fast breaks.
It's almost a miracle that Lonzo is such a good defender given his dad's basketball tactics. |
No it’s part of the reason he’s a great defender. The other two would always cherry pick while Lonzo would defend, rebound, and look to throw length of the court passes to them. His dads tactics probably hurt the other two defensively a lot but not Lonzo. |
Interesting.
I think taking it to hole through contact is not something they preached.
I loved seeing Lonzo go for alley oops at UCLA. Just seems it's not in his bball DNA to strong at the rim (maybe FT worries, injury concerns?).
Having played ball for a long time, I was never one who wanted to attack the rim either. More of a shooter. I would try to be more of an attacker but just not my game. Maybe it's just who he is.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29337
Location: La La Land
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| venturalakersfan wrote: | | defense wrote: | | He keeps getting 25 minutes a game he's going nowhere fast and i wouldn't be shocked if he was eventually traded. I do think where ever he ends up he will eventually become a good player. |
Which lends itself to player development issues. Randle has developed nicely but he is a bulldog, no team would have stifled his development. Not so much for the other young players. Either we didn’t draft well or we don’t develop well. |
It's interesting you bring up Randle. Because I'm starting to think Lonzo is similar to him in the sense that they are unique "fits". With Randle on your squad. You want the other big to space the floor and also be able to protect the rim.
Coming into this season, I heard alot of "Lonzo can play with anyone". I'm not sure of that anymore. Seems like with Lonzo you want another player beside him who do traditional Point of Attack stuff in the halfcourt. And kinda treat Lonzo as a SG when it's not transition.
But in no way have I given up on the kid. I could see him turning things around.
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
