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MJST
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 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| matrixskillz wrote: | | ^what can he do to improve his finishing ability? i thought it was a confidence issue due to his knees, but his under the basket moves are high school level at best. |
Get stronger, work on his timing, and develop a floater, and learn about "putting defenders in jail".
Ball has the moves to get past guys and has the handle we've seen him do it, but he doesn't put his defender in jail enough.
He seems to have a good working pull up mid, but when he gets to the basket is where the problems are.
I'd say, getting stronger and working on his floater would be a good idea.
I'm sure GT will eventually and maybe make a video about Lonzo's finishing woes and what he could do to fix them ^_^
*fingers crossed*
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Lucky_Shot
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| matrixskillz wrote: | | ^what can he do to improve his finishing ability? i thought it was a confidence issue due to his knees, but his under the basket moves are high school level at best. |
If he ever wants to become a good finisher he will need to develop a pullup mid range shot, if he can never docthis defenders will always force him to the center where he will have to make a contested shot.
Not sure want his percent of his shots inside are contested but I bet its extremely high.
Last edited by Lucky_Shot on Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:18 am; edited 2 times in total |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| matrixskillz wrote: | | ^what can he do to improve his finishing ability? i thought it was a confidence issue due to his knees, but his under the basket moves are high school level at best. |
Reps on reps on reps. He needs to get comfortable jumping off one foot and finishing off awkward steps. I don’t mind his lack of mid range game especially with the direction the league is going in but his finishing in traffic must drastically improve. |
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Lucky_Shot
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | ^what can he do to improve his finishing ability? i thought it was a confidence issue due to his knees, but his under the basket moves are high school level at best. |
Reps on reps on reps. He needs to get comfortable jumping off one foot and finishing off awkward steps. I don’t mind his lack of mid range game especially with the direction the league is going in but his finishing in traffic must drastically improve. |
But thats the thing if you dont have a mid range shot you're easier to defend because they know your going to the rack everytime if its not a three or a pass. Its because he doesnt have a mid range he's bad at finishing |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Lucky_Shot wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | ^what can he do to improve his finishing ability? i thought it was a confidence issue due to his knees, but his under the basket moves are high school level at best. |
Reps on reps on reps. He needs to get comfortable jumping off one foot and finishing off awkward steps. I don’t mind his lack of mid range game especially with the direction the league is going in but his finishing in traffic must drastically improve. |
But thats the thing if you dont have a mid range shot you're easier to defend because they know your going to the rack everytime if its not a three or a pass. Its because he doesnt have a mid range he's bad at finishing |
No I don’t think so. He’s not comfortable off one foot which is the root of the entire problem IMO. There are times where the big doesn’t fully commit to stepping in front of him because they know he isn’t gonna look to score. If he learns to finish off one foot bigs will be forced to help and he’ll have more passing lanes. An in between floater game would help with that a lot, if you’re considering that a mid range game I do somewhat agree but I still think his inability to finish off one foot is the biggest issue. That’s very fixable IMO adding a midrange/floater game is more difficult. |
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noahp45
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Lucky_Shot wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | ^what can he do to improve his finishing ability? i thought it was a confidence issue due to his knees, but his under the basket moves are high school level at best. |
Reps on reps on reps. He needs to get comfortable jumping off one foot and finishing off awkward steps. I don’t mind his lack of mid range game especially with the direction the league is going in but his finishing in traffic must drastically improve. |
But thats the thing if you dont have a mid range shot you're easier to defend because they know your going to the rack everytime if its not a three or a pass. Its because he doesnt have a mid range he's bad at finishing |
No I don’t think so. He’s not comfortable off one foot which is the root of the entire problem IMO. There are times where the big doesn’t fully commit to stepping in front of him because they know he isn’t gonna look to score. If he learns to finish off one foot bigs will be forced to help and he’ll have more passing lanes. An in between floater game would help with that a lot, if you’re considering that a mid range game I do somewhat agree but I still think his inability to finish off one foot is the biggest issue. That’s very fixable IMO adding a midrange/floater game is more difficult. |
He needs to get with Tony Parker and learn his moves. |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Lucky_Shot wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | ^what can he do to improve his finishing ability? i thought it was a confidence issue due to his knees, but his under the basket moves are high school level at best. |
Reps on reps on reps. He needs to get comfortable jumping off one foot and finishing off awkward steps. I don’t mind his lack of mid range game especially with the direction the league is going in but his finishing in traffic must drastically improve. |
But thats the thing if you dont have a mid range shot you're easier to defend because they know your going to the rack everytime if its not a three or a pass. Its because he doesnt have a mid range he's bad at finishing |
No. he's bad at finishing because...he's bad at finishing. having a nice mid range came could open up the paint more for him. that is true. but he's still horrible around the rim. there is no sugar coating it. he needs a ton of work on how to take shot blockers/guys angles away so they can't block his layups. He needs lessons in how to put his body on guys early so he can feel them and know where they are coming from, what they are trying to take away from him. then he needs to have multiple counter moves in those scenarios. he has non of that right now. This is not about getting stronger. he needs to increase his offensive IQ. and its more to it than passing the right guy at the right time. |
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| matrixskillz wrote: | | ^what can he do to improve his finishing ability? i thought it was a confidence issue due to his knees, but his under the basket moves are high school level at best. |
That's an interesting question.
What's funny is that my first instinct was that he should practice with Josh Hart more often, as I thought Josh was great at finishing at the rim. So I looked up the numbers this year.
Josh Hart
Restricted Area: FG: 22/39 (56.4%), shots blocked: 9
Layups: 17/34 (50.0%), shots blocked: 9
Lonzo Ball
Restricted Area: FG: 17/31 (54.8%), shots blocked: 6
Layups: 13/26 (50.0%), shots blocked: 6
My initial perception didn't add up to the numbers.
Josh isn't doing that much better than Lonzo at the rim and Lonzo isn't doing as bad as I thought. He's improved at the rim from last year (YTD), and hopefully it keeps improving. |
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levon
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | ^what can he do to improve his finishing ability? i thought it was a confidence issue due to his knees, but his under the basket moves are high school level at best. |
That's an interesting question.
What's funny is that my first instinct was that he should practice with Josh Hart more often, as I thought Josh was great at finishing at the rim. So I looked up the numbers this year.
Josh Hart
Restricted Area: FG: 22/39 (56.4%), shots blocked: 9
Layups: 17/34 (50.0%), shots blocked: 9
Lonzo Ball
Restricted Area: FG: 17/31 (54.8%), shots blocked: 6
Layups: 13/26 (50.0%), shots blocked: 6
My initial perception didn't add up to the numbers.
Josh isn't doing that much better than Lonzo at the rim and Lonzo isn't doing as bad as I thought. He's improved at the rim from last year (YTD), and hopefully it keeps improving. |
Woah. |
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | ^what can he do to improve his finishing ability? i thought it was a confidence issue due to his knees, but his under the basket moves are high school level at best. |
That's an interesting question.
What's funny is that my first instinct was that he should practice with Josh Hart more often, as I thought Josh was great at finishing at the rim. So I looked up the numbers this year.
Josh Hart
Restricted Area: FG: 22/39 (56.4%), shots blocked: 9
Layups: 17/34 (50.0%), shots blocked: 9
Lonzo Ball
Restricted Area: FG: 17/31 (54.8%), shots blocked: 6
Layups: 13/26 (50.0%), shots blocked: 6
My initial perception didn't add up to the numbers.
Josh isn't doing that much better than Lonzo at the rim and Lonzo isn't doing as bad as I thought. He's improved at the rim from last year (YTD), and hopefully it keeps improving. |
That is surprising. I wonder if there's a measure of how heavily contested these layups are? My immediate reaction is to think that maybe Hart just takes harder layups. But it's also possible I just vastly overrated Josh as a finisher |
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | epak wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | ^what can he do to improve his finishing ability? i thought it was a confidence issue due to his knees, but his under the basket moves are high school level at best. |
That's an interesting question.
What's funny is that my first instinct was that he should practice with Josh Hart more often, as I thought Josh was great at finishing at the rim. So I looked up the numbers this year.
Josh Hart
Restricted Area: FG: 22/39 (56.4%), shots blocked: 9
Layups: 17/34 (50.0%), shots blocked: 9
Lonzo Ball
Restricted Area: FG: 17/31 (54.8%), shots blocked: 6
Layups: 13/26 (50.0%), shots blocked: 6
My initial perception didn't add up to the numbers.
Josh isn't doing that much better than Lonzo at the rim and Lonzo isn't doing as bad as I thought. He's improved at the rim from last year (YTD), and hopefully it keeps improving. |
That is surprising. I wonder if there's a measure of how heavily contested these layups are? My immediate reaction is to think that maybe Hart just takes harder layups. But it's also possible I just vastly overrated Josh as a finisher |
Big note:
Josh Hart 2017-18:
Restricted Area: FG: 85/131 (64.9%), shots blocked: 16
Layups: 75/125 (60.0%), shots blocked: 20
(not sure how the blocks make sense unless he's taking a layup outside the RA lol, but that's what nba.com has it as)
So Josh was good at the rim last year. So that perception may have carried over to this year. But this year alone, Lonzo and Josh aren't that far off in terms of the raw numbers. But like you say, difficulty variables may exist. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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if Lonzo's three is 34.3%
And his at the basket or restricted area finishing is 54.8% and his layup finishing is 50%
Then his mid must be horrible
Alright let's break it down.
Lonzo Ball (Layups) 50.0%
Lonzo Ball (Restricted Area) 54.8%
Therefore:
Lonzo Ball (Paint) 52.4%
Lonzo Ball (Three Pointer) 34.3%
Taking only those two things into context, his Field Goal Percentage would be 43.4%
But it's 38% which means that his mid would have to be between ... 20-30%
To be exact, for those numbers to work, Lonzo's mid-range percentage would have to be about 27.4% Which is horrendous...
So all and all this is how Lonzo's shooting percentages would look across the board.
Lonzo Ball (Paint) 52.4%
Lonzo Ball (Mid-Range) 27.4%!!!!
Lonzo Ball (Three Pointer) 34.3%
Alright.. so we see where the major disparity is.
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: |
Big note:
Josh Hart 2017-18:
Restricted Area: FG: 85/131 (64.9%), shots blocked: 16
Layups: 75/125 (60.0%), shots blocked: 20
(not sure how the blocks make sense unless he's taking a layup outside the RA lol, but that's what nba.com has it as)
So Josh was good at the rim last year. So that perception may have carried over to this year. But this year alone, Lonzo and Josh aren't that far off in terms of the raw numbers. But like you say, difficulty variables may exist. |
I think another possibility is that Josh started the season really well finishing the basket (at least as I recall), and reputations/ narratives stick once established. So similar to what you said, only it's a function of his performance really early this season instead of his performance last season. I think that is why I thought so highly of his finishing anyway -- maybe for other people it's carry over from last season, as you mentioned. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Bol wrote: | | There's also, I think, a legitimate question whether Fox would be doing what he's doing if he had to share the ball and the court with LeBron, or even Ingram for that matter. |
That's true, but all I am doing is comparing Fox and Ball in the present tense. Ball may turn out to be a better player in the long run, and Fox may fall on his face. This is just something of a snapshot.
What the stats show is that Fox is a much more effective defender this year (his DRPM for last season was -2.71). Ball is a better defender than Fox and is more effective on offense this year than last year. But Fox has turned into a good offensive player. It isn't just scoring, either. Fox averages more assists per 36 than Ball.
But sure, Fox would be playing differently if he had someone like Lebron on the roster. However, if the roles were reversed, Ball would not be putting up Fox's numbers. Lebron is not causing his shooting problems.
None of this should suggest that I am giving up on Ball. I'm not. However, he needs to start progressing in a meaningful way, or else he is going to get left behind. Right now, he may not even have much trade value. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| noahp45 wrote: | | "Kyle Kuzma is shooting 29% from three on 5 attempts a game and is still called a threat from three. |
Kuzma is a fan favorite. Some people see what they want to see, not what is really there. Having said that, I don't remember the last time I saw someone arguing that Kuzma was a threat from three. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | But it's 38% which means that his mid would have to be between ... 20-30%
To be exact, for those numbers to work, Lonzo's mid-range percentage would have to be about 27.4% Which is horrendous... |
That's about right.
http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/GJ1l9 |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | | "Kyle Kuzma is shooting 29% from three on 5 attempts a game and is still called a threat from three. |
Kuzma is a fan favorite. Some people see what they want to see, not what is really there. Having said that, I don't remember the last time I saw someone arguing that Kuzma was a threat from three. |
Yeah. But somehow he still has gravity as you see team's PFs come out to guard him giving LBJ more room.
What we miss is Brook pulling out centers from the rim.
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | | "Kyle Kuzma is shooting 29% from three on 5 attempts a game and is still called a threat from three. |
Kuzma is a fan favorite. Some people see what they want to see, not what is really there. Having said that, I don't remember the last time I saw someone arguing that Kuzma was a threat from three. |
Yeah. But somehow he still has gravity as you see team's PFs come out to guard him giving LBJ more room.
What we miss is Brook pulling out centers from the rim. |
Isn't that replaced by the gravity that McGee gets at the rim, especially from the corner defenders? |
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MJST
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | MJST wrote: | But it's 38% which means that his mid would have to be between ... 20-30%
To be exact, for those numbers to work, Lonzo's mid-range percentage would have to be about 27.4% Which is horrendous... |
That's about right.
http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/GJ1l9 |
That 10-16: 16.7% is probably what is hurting it the most.
Just a hunch 
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: |
My initial perception didn't add up to the numbers.
Josh isn't doing that much better than Lonzo at the rim and Lonzo isn't doing as bad as I thought. He's improved at the rim from last year (YTD), and hopefully it keeps improving. |
You're probably noticing the free throw rate (number of Free throw attempts per FG attempts). Josh's FTr is twice as much as Lonzo's.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | | "Kyle Kuzma is shooting 29% from three on 5 attempts a game and is still called a threat from three. |
Kuzma is a fan favorite. Some people see what they want to see, not what is really there. Having said that, I don't remember the last time I saw someone arguing that Kuzma was a threat from three. |
Yeah. But somehow he still has gravity as you see team's PFs come out to guard him giving LBJ more room.
What we miss is Brook pulling out centers from the rim. |
Isn't that replaced by the gravity that McGee gets at the rim, especially from the corner defenders? |
Different kind of gravity. But you do see centers hanging around at the rim as Tyson/Javale are not spreading the floor out much.
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Christopher Walken
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Bol wrote: | | There's also, I think, a legitimate question whether Fox would be doing what he's doing if he had to share the ball and the court with LeBron, or even Ingram for that matter. |
That's true, but all I am doing is comparing Fox and Ball in the present tense. Ball may turn out to be a better player in the long run, and Fox may fall on his face. This is just something of a snapshot.
What the stats show is that Fox is a much more effective defender this year (his DRPM for last season was -2.71). Ball is a better defender than Fox and is more effective on offense this year than last year. But Fox has turned into a good offensive player. It isn't just scoring, either. Fox averages more assists per 36 than Ball.
But sure, Fox would be playing differently if he had someone like Lebron on the roster. However, if the roles were reversed, Ball would not be putting up Fox's numbers. Lebron is not causing his shooting problems.
None of this should suggest that I am giving up on Ball. I'm not. However, he needs to start progressing in a meaningful way, or else he is going to get left behind. Right now, he may not even have much trade value. |
That is pure speculation on your part and Its funny you've worded it as if it were fact- sounds like projection to me, you have NO IDEA how Zo would be doing in sacramento (away from his dad, maybe not getting someone pregnant etc)
Valiant effort though.
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | | "Kyle Kuzma is shooting 29% from three on 5 attempts a game and is still called a threat from three. |
Kuzma is a fan favorite. Some people see what they want to see, not what is really there. Having said that, I don't remember the last time I saw someone arguing that Kuzma was a threat from three. |
Yeah. But somehow he still has gravity as you see team's PFs come out to guard him giving LBJ more room.
What we miss is Brook pulling out centers from the rim. |
Isn't that replaced by the gravity that McGee gets at the rim, especially from the corner defenders? |
Different kind of gravity. But you do see centers hanging around at the rim as Tyson/Javale are not spreading the floor out much. |
Definitely different as I mean the corner 3 point defender is drawn in leaving our corner 3s open as opposed to more space in the paint. |
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | epak wrote: |
My initial perception didn't add up to the numbers.
Josh isn't doing that much better than Lonzo at the rim and Lonzo isn't doing as bad as I thought. He's improved at the rim from last year (YTD), and hopefully it keeps improving. |
You're probably noticing the free throw rate (number of Free throw attempts per FG attempts). Josh's FTr is twice as much as Lonzo's. |
Naw, it was purely layups. As I thought Hart converted better. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | noahp45 wrote: | | "Kyle Kuzma is shooting 29% from three on 5 attempts a game and is still called a threat from three. |
Kuzma is a fan favorite. Some people see what they want to see, not what is really there. Having said that, I don't remember the last time I saw someone arguing that Kuzma was a threat from three. |
Yeah. But somehow he still has gravity as you see team's PFs come out to guard him giving LBJ more room.
What we miss is Brook pulling out centers from the rim. |
I suspect that there are two factors in play. First, Kuzma did shoot 36% from three last year. I don't know that the league regards him as a 29% shooter from three, even if that is his number at the moment. The reverse is true of Ball. Second, Kuzma just looks a lot more dangerous out there. |
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