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moonriver24
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Joined: 21 Oct 2007
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 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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When I reflected on the 2017 draft pick, I remembered telling myself that Lakers would make a mistake picking up Lonzo instead of D'aaron Fox. The updated stats as of this date are as follows:
Lonzo 7.8ppg, 4.9apg, 38%FG, 34.3 3fg% and 47% eFG
Fox 18.2ppg, 4.1apg, 49.1%fg, 40 3fg% and 54.1 eFG%
My feeling that Lakers made a mistake was based on their entire career on College level. Zo was hyped to the sky at the time. But Fox had making noise himself on the other half of the world. and when the two finally met, Fox showed who was the better player back then and now.
If we had done a deeper analysis at the time, we could have swap the two with an additional draft pick.
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LonzoLegend2
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Joined: 05 Aug 2017
Posts: 680
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| moonriver24 wrote: | When I reflected on the 2017 draft pick, I remembered telling myself that Lakers would make a mistake picking up Lonzo instead of D'aaron Fox. The updated stats as of this date are as follows:
Lonzo 7.8ppg, 4.9apg, 38%FG, 34.3 3fg% and 47% eFG
Fox 18.2ppg, 4.1apg, 49.1%fg, 40 3fg% and 54.1 eFG%
My feeling that Lakers made a mistake was based on their entire career on College level. Zo was hyped to the sky at the time. But Fox had making noise himself on the other half of the world. and when the two finally met, Fox showed who was the better player back then and now.
If we had done a deeper analysis at the time, we could have swap the two with an additional draft pick. |
I'm still curious if the Queens were gonna pony up the #'s 5 and 10, it gives me a migraine thinking we could've surround Lebron with Fox AND Mitchell instead of mediocre types we have instead. 
Fox
Mitchell
LeBron
Ingram/Kuz
McGee |
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silkwilkes
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Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 6938
Location: searching for the mojo of Dr. Buss
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:02 am Post subject: |
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you can't just pick the stat lines that help your argument. How about rebounds, steals, blocks, defensive efficiency, etc.
Also, doing well on a bad team is VERY VERY different than being effective on a good team with a bonafide superstar.
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adtz
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Posts: 723
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| moonriver24 wrote: | When I reflected on the 2017 draft pick, I remembered telling myself that Lakers would make a mistake picking up Lonzo instead of D'aaron Fox. The updated stats as of this date are as follows:
Lonzo 7.8ppg, 4.9apg, 38%FG, 34.3 3fg% and 47% eFG
Fox 18.2ppg, 4.1apg, 49.1%fg, 40 3fg% and 54.1 eFG%
My feeling that Lakers made a mistake was based on their entire career on College level. Zo was hyped to the sky at the time. But Fox had making noise himself on the other half of the world. and when the two finally met, Fox showed who was the better player back then and now.
If we had done a deeper analysis at the time, we could have swap the two with an additional draft pick. |
It so easy to talk back, 12 team is still talking on how they miss kobe bryant but they had move on, I suggest you should too.
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DangeRuss
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Joined: 10 Feb 2016
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| Zillethai wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | ^what can he do to improve his finishing ability? i thought it was a confidence issue due to his knees, but his under the basket moves are high school level at best. |
Get stronger, work on his timing, and develop a floater, and learn about "putting defenders in jail".
Ball has the moves to get past guys and has the handle we've seen him do it, but he doesn't put his defender in jail enough.
He seems to have a good working pull up mid, but when he gets to the basket is where the problems are.
I'd say, getting stronger and working on his floater would be a good idea.
I'm sure GT will eventually and maybe make a video about Lonzo's finishing woes and what he could do to fix them ^_^
*fingers crossed* |
Those were all tasks for last summer. Magic specifically stated that he needed a floater as well as finishing ability. He has neither. Magic also specifically stated that this was the most important summer of Lonzo's life. I see no difference offensively between last year and his current game play. What has he done besides get bigger, and get a tattoo? |
He was injured and had surgery which effectively limited his ability to accomplish those tasks. |
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Bard207
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| silkwilkes wrote: | you can't just pick the stat lines that help your argument. How about rebounds, steals, blocks, defensive efficiency, etc.
Also, doing well on a bad team is VERY VERY different than being effective on a good team with a bonafide superstar. |
Tankathon
Sacramento 9 - 8
Lakers 9 - 7
One additional loss is the difference between a good team and a bad team? |
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | | silkwilkes wrote: | you can't just pick the stat lines that help your argument. How about rebounds, steals, blocks, defensive efficiency, etc.
Also, doing well on a bad team is VERY VERY different than being effective on a good team with a bonafide superstar. |
Tankathon
Sacramento 9 - 8
Lakers 9 - 7
One additional loss is the difference between a good team and a bad team? |
I'll still be surprised if they win more than 35 games |
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manlisten
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:37 am Post subject: |
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The Kings are a legit playoff contender. In the west, that's saying something.
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Daphanabe
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| manlisten wrote: | | The Kings are a legit playoff contender. In the west, that's saying something. |
Every season there is a surprise team that starts strong and has more wins than expected the first month or so. Reality then hits and they go back to where expectations for them were. Like the poster above said, I’d be surprised as well if they have more than 35 wins to end the year. |
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Daphanabe wrote: | | manlisten wrote: | | The Kings are a legit playoff contender. In the west, that's saying something. |
Every season there is a surprise team that starts strong and has more wins than expected the first month or so. Reality then hits and they go back to where expectations for them were. Like the poster above said, I’d be surprised as well if they have more than 35 wins to end the year. |
we started with a similar record 2 or 3 years ago |
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manlisten
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Bol wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | MJST wrote: | "passive soldier" again, you aren't talking about defense, rebounding and passing are you? Cause Lonzo is anything but with those things.
So it seems Fox gets credit for "doing the extra things when his shot isn't falling" yet Lonzo doesn't get that when he does all of those things at a higher level than Fox?
Seems we see how it works. |
This is one of the reasons why I like RPM. It cuts through a lot of the fog because it doesn't involve box score stats. If someone is really doing a lot of little extra things that affect the game, RPM should pick it up.
Fox: +2.62 ORPM, -0.72 DRPM, +1.90 RPM (12th of 90)
Ball: -0.34 ORPM. -0.19 DRPM, -0.53 RPM (33rd of 90)
So Ball is a little better on defense, but way below his defensive impact from last year. Fox just blows Ball away on offense, even with all of those supposed invisible intangibles that don't show up in the box score.
So far, the best comp for Fox is Jrue Holiday, who is 13th:
Holiday: +2.39 ORPM. -0.63 DRPM, +1.76 RPM
So far, the best comp for Ball is Ricky Rubio, who is 34th:
Rubio: -0.68 ORPM, +0.13 DRPM. -0.55 RPM
All of that is consistent with the eyeball test for me, except that Rubio gives a lot more consistent effort than Ball.
It's a different question is ask what kind of player Ball will become some day. He could wind up as a better player than Fox. After all, Ball was a better player than Fox last year. Right now, though, Fox is the better player. It really isn't close. |
There's also, I think, a legitimate question whether Fox would be doing what he's doing if he had to share the ball and the court with LeBron, or even Ingram for that matter. I watched some of that game last night and Fox gets to do absolutely anything he wants, there's no superstar dominating the game or below average player pounding the ball and iso'ing for midrange jumpers. If Lonzo shot 1-10--well, he wouldn't because he'd be on the bench before he got to that point. The two players are in vastly different situations, and Lonzo didn't just get worse for no reason.
Sac actually played a run and gun style that would suit Lonzo very well. I'll bet if we traded him for Fox right now as so many wish we could, he'd look great in that system, while Fox would struggle in the limited role Lonzo has to play. |
Let's be honest, Lonzo wouldn't be aggressive regardless of who his teammates are. It's just not his nature.
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It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points." |
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Bol
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 4045
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| manlisten wrote: | | Bol wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | MJST wrote: | "passive soldier" again, you aren't talking about defense, rebounding and passing are you? Cause Lonzo is anything but with those things.
So it seems Fox gets credit for "doing the extra things when his shot isn't falling" yet Lonzo doesn't get that when he does all of those things at a higher level than Fox?
Seems we see how it works. |
This is one of the reasons why I like RPM. It cuts through a lot of the fog because it doesn't involve box score stats. If someone is really doing a lot of little extra things that affect the game, RPM should pick it up.
Fox: +2.62 ORPM, -0.72 DRPM, +1.90 RPM (12th of 90)
Ball: -0.34 ORPM. -0.19 DRPM, -0.53 RPM (33rd of 90)
So Ball is a little better on defense, but way below his defensive impact from last year. Fox just blows Ball away on offense, even with all of those supposed invisible intangibles that don't show up in the box score.
So far, the best comp for Fox is Jrue Holiday, who is 13th:
Holiday: +2.39 ORPM. -0.63 DRPM, +1.76 RPM
So far, the best comp for Ball is Ricky Rubio, who is 34th:
Rubio: -0.68 ORPM, +0.13 DRPM. -0.55 RPM
All of that is consistent with the eyeball test for me, except that Rubio gives a lot more consistent effort than Ball.
It's a different question is ask what kind of player Ball will become some day. He could wind up as a better player than Fox. After all, Ball was a better player than Fox last year. Right now, though, Fox is the better player. It really isn't close. |
There's also, I think, a legitimate question whether Fox would be doing what he's doing if he had to share the ball and the court with LeBron, or even Ingram for that matter. I watched some of that game last night and Fox gets to do absolutely anything he wants, there's no superstar dominating the game or below average player pounding the ball and iso'ing for midrange jumpers. If Lonzo shot 1-10--well, he wouldn't because he'd be on the bench before he got to that point. The two players are in vastly different situations, and Lonzo didn't just get worse for no reason.
Sac actually played a run and gun style that would suit Lonzo very well. I'll bet if we traded him for Fox right now as so many wish we could, he'd look great in that system, while Fox would struggle in the limited role Lonzo has to play. |
Let's be honest, Lonzo wouldn't be aggressive regardless of who his teammates are. It's just not his nature. |
Aggressive scoring? Nope, Lonzo isn't that interested in scoring. That's been true of a lot of great point guards. But aggressive getting the break going and the ball moving to the open man? Yeah, that's his style. It doesn't work as well when the rest of the team isn't on the same page, and he can't contribute as much when the team's not relying on him to do what he does best. I think he'd look a lot more like UCLA Lonzo if he were on the Queens. Just guessing obviously, but I think he'd average around 12/10/7 if he were in Fox's place. |
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splashmtn
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Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 3961
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| moonriver24 wrote: | When I reflected on the 2017 draft pick, I remembered telling myself that Lakers would make a mistake picking up Lonzo instead of D'aaron Fox. The updated stats as of this date are as follows:
Lonzo 7.8ppg, 4.9apg, 38%FG, 34.3 3fg% and 47% eFG
Fox 18.2ppg, 4.1apg, 49.1%fg, 40 3fg% and 54.1 eFG%
My feeling that Lakers made a mistake was based on their entire career on College level. Zo was hyped to the sky at the time. But Fox had making noise himself on the other half of the world. and when the two finally met, Fox showed who was the better player back then and now.
If we had done a deeper analysis at the time, we could have swap the two with an additional draft pick. |
the stats do not tell the entire story. Dfox like a ton of other short scoring guards. short being not the true height of legit SG's but play like them with a few assists. means that you have to take a look at is this player going to take his franchise anywhere with those stats? is this person winning games for their team? The answer to that question right now is, ehhhh.
The fact that a broken offense Zo can win as many games for his team as a lot of these high scoring guys should tell you something. one thing his father said about him that remains true is this. "Zo is a winner". That is true. There is something about him being on that court that produces wins. Even I can't put all of my fingers on ever reason why that is. and there hasnt been enough adv stats to show all of those reasons either. and again this is a guy with a a middle school scoring ability(when it comes to the nba game at this moment in time). THe idea is simple. If he can win this many games Today with this limited offensive scoring ability. what the heck will happen IF/WHEN he figures out the scoring part? vs some other scoring guard that passes a little. that kind of has it figured out but never seems to figure out how to make his team better and better.
You remember the last laker game vs the queens. yeah they are still the queens. lol. D fox was balling. did they win? nope. Dfox had like less than 5 assists. thats a no no for the PG unless you have a point forward on that roster we dont know about. thats never going to get it done. he has a job to do that means be a floor general for his team. right now thats not him. he's just a scorer. a good one thats going to get better. props to him for getting that jumper together early. but right now. he's looking more like a lou williams. lou can help you win if you have all the other pieces. but he's a great 6th man, not your starting pg. you get the difference?
Zo was hurt vs the queens. and he barely played, shot horribly and still made an impact on the game. still gave you 4 dimes with no TO's. i think the lakers were 2 and 2 vs the qeens last year with no bron. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:44 am Post subject: |
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Man I miss 2017 SPL MVP Lonzo. The swagger.
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Man I miss 2017 SPL MVP Lonzo. The swagger. |
that was UCLA 2.0.. He had slashers, he had another pg(caruso) who was a good passer and ball handler at that level. he had shooter(S).
ever since then. he hasnt had all those things together.
he either is lacking shooting or the other guard play. i'm not talking about pound the ball into the ground old fashion pg's like rondo(who i like but just saying for zo's sake since thats what we're talking about.) |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Man I miss 2017 SPL MVP Lonzo. The swagger. |
that was UCLA 2.0.. He had slashers, he had another pg(caruso) who was a good passer and ball handler at that level. he had shooter(S).
ever since then. he hasnt had all those things together.
he either is lacking shooting or the other guard play. i'm not talking about pound the ball into the ground old fashion pg's like rondo(who i like but just saying for zo's sake since thats what we're talking about.) |
Well, it was also against much worse competition.
But every game was a joy to watch with him playing with so much confidence.
I have always thought that Lonzo's skills would be enhanced with better players. This season he's clearly still trying to figure things out.
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LakerSD
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Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23785
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Man I miss 2017 SPL MVP Lonzo. The swagger. |
that was UCLA 2.0.. He had slashers, he had another pg(caruso) who was a good passer and ball handler at that level. he had shooter(S).
ever since then. he hasnt had all those things together.
he either is lacking shooting or the other guard play. i'm not talking about pound the ball into the ground old fashion pg's like rondo(who i like but just saying for zo's sake since thats what we're talking about.) |
I think that’s part of it though. The NBA will exploit any player’s weaknesses and for Lonzo, the weaknesses are driving and finishing in traffic and being able to get that shot off.
Opponents have exploited these 2 areas and he still has not been able to adjust. He will finish once in a while or he will pull up and hit a midrange shot like he did against Orlando but it’s far and few in between.
Other draft picks have their own weaknesses to deal with...some have adjusted while others have not and it’s basically the difference between establishing yourself in the league, being a journeyman or completely out of the league. |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSD wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Man I miss 2017 SPL MVP Lonzo. The swagger. |
that was UCLA 2.0.. He had slashers, he had another pg(caruso) who was a good passer and ball handler at that level. he had shooter(S).
ever since then. he hasnt had all those things together.
he either is lacking shooting or the other guard play. i'm not talking about pound the ball into the ground old fashion pg's like rondo(who i like but just saying for zo's sake since thats what we're talking about.) |
I think that’s part of it though. The NBA will exploit any player’s weaknesses and for Lonzo, the weaknesses are driving and finishing in traffic and being able to get that shot off.
Opponents have exploited these 2 areas and he still has not been able to adjust. He will finish once in a while or he will pull up and hit a midrange shot like he did against Orlando but it’s far and few in between.
Other draft picks have their own weaknesses to deal with...some have adjusted while others have not and it’s basically the difference between establishing yourself in the league, being a journeyman or completely out of the league. |
you are correct.
lebron is suspect at the FT line as well is he not?
our entire roster is at this point.
our entire youth core is suspect at a few things in their games right now. thats my point. each of them could give us something. but we're talking about in a tight playoff game. zo would brick a FT, would air ball a 3 and would get his layup blocked. thats a given. lol. But he will also lock his man up(which is a nba PG who is probably running the show on the opponents team.) and Zo will cause a couple of Turnovers. This is a high value thing.he will also make sure we score quickly by pushing the pace with the dribble or via the pass. that again is very valuable in the playoffs in tight situations. He is playoff ready in those situations. not in the others.
I wouldnt say kuz is playoff ready in any of his abilities even though we both know he's a better scorer than zo. but i dont think kuz's offense is consistent enough to call it playoff consistent.
Neither is harts, nor bi's. but i have more confidence in harts basic game which is catch and shoot, go to the rack strong. but he's also not being asked to assess a defense and setup teammates like zo and bi are. there's a difference. and we know that hart can't stop any good perimeter players right now without fouling them. so he's a liability on the perimeter but is excellent on a big in a playoff situation.
BI's offense is not consistent enough to count on in the playoffs either. his defense on the perimeter is very close to being tight game playoff ready. his decision making is up there as well.
but you see. all of our guys have an "aint ready" component or two in their games. only josh and zo also have a "are ready" component as well. Josh playing defense down low and zo playing defense overall. |
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LakerSD
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: |
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@splashmtn...we agree.
The Lakers are about championships so all the young core guys have to improve or they will be part of trade packages.
Kuzma - Needs to improve on defense
Ingram - Needs to become more efficient and more consistent on offense
Lonzo - Needs to be more than a passive version of Patrick Beverly
Hart - He’s the closest because he has developed that 3 and can play with essentially anyone on the court.
I’m ok with Ingram and Lonzo finding their way on offense because their defensive assignments have enabled the team to win some games, but big picture they really do need to improve. As for Kuzma, his role and minutes will always depend on if he can be respectable on the defensive end.
Last edited by LakerSD on Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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laker50
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Posts: 2140
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Has a PG ever been successful without at least decent scoring?
It seems like all the best like Magic, Nash, Stockton, Cousy,
Kidd, could all score as well as assist. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| laker50 wrote: | Has a PG ever been successful without at least decent scoring?
It seems like all the best like Magic, Nash, Stockton, Cousy,
Kidd, could all score as well as assist. |
Kidd averaged 12ppg in his career. He's not a prolific scorer by any means.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | laker50 wrote: | Has a PG ever been successful without at least decent scoring?
It seems like all the best like Magic, Nash, Stockton, Cousy,
Kidd, could all score as well as assist. |
Kidd averaged 12ppg in his career. He's not a prolific scorer by any means. |
Not sure that flies in the modern NBA.
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Bard207
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Posts: 7713
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | Bard207 wrote: | | silkwilkes wrote: | you can't just pick the stat lines that help your argument. How about rebounds, steals, blocks, defensive efficiency, etc.
Also, doing well on a bad team is VERY VERY different than being effective on a good team with a bonafide superstar. |
Tankathon
Sacramento 9 - 8
Lakers 9 - 7
One additional loss is the difference between a good team and a bad team? |
I'll still be surprised if they win more than 35 games |
That is possible, but that would still be better than expectations.
Three Point Percentage
Last season, Sacramento shot
* 37.5% on three pointers and were #3 in that category.
* 24 attempts a game and were #28 in that category.
* #27 in defensive rating.
Three Point Percentage
This season
* 38.3% on three pointers and tied for #5 in that category.
* 28.3 attempts per game and #24 in that category.
* Improved to #19 in defensive rating.
Their three point shooting carried over from last season with improvement on defense being important. Zach doesn't have the minutes that he had last season, so maybe they can maintain their improvement on defense. |
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LakesGnrLake
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Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 1296
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| The reality of the situation is you really have to keep these young players til they are about 23 years old for you to see what they really have. I still have faith in Ball because we have seen what it looks like once he puts it all together. You just need to give these one and one guys some time to figure it out. You don't want to be the guy who let a player like Ball go because he wasn't averaging a triple double at 21 in his second year. Even if Ball becomes a player who gets 15/6/6 and can play hard nosed defense that's a good player. You gotta lets these guys make mistakes you gotta let them dig their graves and see if they have what it takes to climb out of it. |
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lakersfan8
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Posts: 2993
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| If we want to focus on player development, I think we should move Hart and Rondo onto the starting lineup. Let Ball and Ingram be the main playmakers on the 2nd unit, something like Ball, Svi, Ingram, Beasley and Chandler. |
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