OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:29 am    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
LakerMindLA wrote:
MJST wrote:
Lonzo's the kind of player that if he was on any other team, the same fanbase would likely be going "Wow when he gets a jumper and a little stronger...watch out. Cause he's already a more complete player than (anyone we'd drafted that year)."


More likely to get a jumper - Ingram or Lonzo?

The problem with Lonzo is his jumper is so bad, it is hard to envision him actually developing one.

Imagine how good Ben Wallace or Rodman would have been if they developed an offensive game.
dennis nor ben ever shot 3's in college or high school. big ben was never a good ft shooter to my knowledge.

Zo was a solid scorer in high school and college. made nba 3's in college. made layups in college. made freethrows in high school at an 80% clip.

this tells me two things. #1 you have some mechanical issues with your scoring(how you jump, how you release the ball on layups, what type of layups you use to take that wont work vs nba guys, what type of layups you should be taking vs nba guys that you have never had to take, your jumper etc. ) But what stands out even beyond that. is MENTAL. freethrows are free throws are FREE...Throws. rec league, by yourself, semi pro, overseas FIBA, Lithuania(LOL), Chino Hills, lakers practice facility, in a NBA game. its a 10 foot rim. the FT line is the same distance, and the ball is still a round basketball. Get out of your own head and make the open shots.

Same goes for open 3's and blown layups when not in traffic.

Imagine this. if he never fixed a single bit of his shot or mechanics on any of those things. Any basketball player that has played since he/she was a kid, should be able to cash those in when ALONE. zo is bricking this stuff with or without defenders around. that tells you its a HEAD THING. we have to first get this guy out of his own head. then we can really hone in on the mechanics. lets assume he got out of his head. He would be shooting around 45% from the field. and his 3pt% would be a slightly higher(not super high but slight due to the fact that he would start popping 3's then they would start to really guard him closely. but his 2's would go in all of the time when not in serious traffic that would increase his fg% drastically.
if he made 80% of his FT's. he would have a higher ppg average.


True. If he made 90% of his FTs, he'd have an even higher ppg average.

Lonzo Ball is currently shooting 56% on his FTs (0.5 - 0.9)

Imagine if he was shooting 80% (0.72 - 0.9) --> he'd increase his scoring avg from 8.3 to 8.5.

Now imagine if he shot 90% (0.81 - 0.9) --> His avg would go from 8.3 to 8.6!!

Lonzo is leaving mad points on the table by being a poor FT shooter.


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject:

As a trade value, I don't think we'd get too much for Lonzo at this point, and I'm not sure teams are all that enthusiastic about having the Ball family circus too.

So any trade would mean that Magic has to swallow his pride about drafting him #2, taking a way below market deal for Lonzo (and chance that a team can fix his offensive game). Just not worth it IMO. His defense is good, but his offense is atrocious. Years of having his dad train him have left some really bad habits on the offensive end, starting first and foremost with that shot.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I'm in the 76ers market and many fans here seem to believe his agent became an "attorney" and shopped for a doctor to make that diagnosis.


I agree that Fultz's agent probably shopped for that diagnosis. I think this is one of those cases where both guys probably need a change of scenery. It looks like the environment has become kind of toxic over there for Fultz, and Lonzo isn't handling the expectations of saving his hometown Lakers.

yinoma2001 wrote:
76ers traded their pick AND the Sacto pick for Fultz. Imagine if the Lakers did something comparable to that.


How is that different from Lonzo? We passed on Tatum, Fox, and Mitchell for him. He failed his first workout with the team, and we overlooked it even though De'Aaron Fox killed his workout. That's just as bad.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:38 am    Post subject:

Threatt_Level wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I'm in the 76ers market and many fans here seem to believe his agent became an "attorney" and shopped for a doctor to make that diagnosis.


I agree that Fultz's agent probably shopped for that diagnosis. I think this is one of those cases where both guys probably need a change of scenery. It looks like the environment has become kind of toxic over there for Fultz, and Lonzo isn't handling the expectations of saving his hometown Lakers.

yinoma2001 wrote:
76ers traded their pick AND the Sacto pick for Fultz. Imagine if the Lakers did something comparable to that.


How is that different from Lonzo? We passed on Tatum, Fox, and Mitchell for him. He failed his first workout with the team, and we overlooked it even though De'Aaron Fox killed his workout. That's just as bad.


How different? We didn't give up another then-top 3 2019 pick (now it's better but likely will be a lottery pick).
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:41 am    Post subject:

Folks, he's particularly bad on the road this season. Time to accept that. Weird thing is, he was better on the road than home last season.

Maybe next season that'll even itself out.

At home (FG%): 42.3%
On the road (FG%): 32.4%

At home (3pt%): 43.3%
On the road (3pt%): 16.1%

But you gotta set your expectations when Lonzo is on the road this season, unfortunately.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:44 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Folks, he's particularly bad on the road this season. Time to accept that. Weird thing is, he was better on the road than home last season.

Maybe next season that'll even itself out.

At home (FG%): 42.3%
On the road (FG%): 32.4%

At home (3pt%): 43.3%
On the road (3pt%): 16.1%

But you gotta set your expectations when Lonzo is on the road this season, unfortunately.


This is why having Rondo will be very helpful to the team down the road. Right now he's just gutting it out. But Rondo provides the team with a bit of room when Lonzo hits these stretches.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:47 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Folks, he's particularly bad on the road this season. Time to accept that. Weird thing is, he was better on the road than home last season.

Maybe next season that'll even itself out.

At home (FG%): 42.3%
On the road (FG%): 32.4%

At home (3pt%): 43.3%
On the road (3pt%): 16.1%

But you gotta set your expectations when Lonzo is on the road this season, unfortunately.


This is why having Rondo will be very helpful to the team down the road. Right now he's just gutting it out. But Rondo provides the team with a bit of room when Lonzo hits these stretches.


Yeah, and more so than the shooting, I do wish Lonzo had more of an ability to create looks for others. That way, when his shot is off, which frankly is more often than we all like, he could at least set others up.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:48 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:

True. If he made 90% of his FTs, he'd have an even higher ppg average.

Lonzo Ball is currently shooting 56% on his FTs (0.5 - 0.9)

Imagine if he was shooting 80% (0.72 - 0.9) --> he'd increase his scoring avg from 8.3 to 8.5.

Now imagine if he shot 90% (0.81 - 0.9) --> His avg would go from 8.3 to 8.6!!

Lonzo is leaving mad points on the table by being a poor FT shooter.


Lonzo was a terrible FT shooter in college. And on top of that, Lonzo is terrible at drawing fouls.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:49 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
How different? We didn't give up another then-top 3 2019 pick (now it's better but likely will be a lottery pick).


But we have as much "sunk cost" in Lonzo as the Sixers do in Fultz. We didn't give up another pick to get Lonzo, but we passed on much better players even though he didn't workout well with us.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:52 am    Post subject:

Threatt_Level wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
How different? We didn't give up another then-top 3 2019 pick (now it's better but likely will be a lottery pick).


But we have as much "sunk cost" in Lonzo as the Sixers do in Fultz. We didn't give up another pick to get Lonzo, but we passed on much better players even though he didn't workout well with us.


He isn't a sunk cost yet. It's literally 1 year and summer knee surgery. He clearly put in the work in the weight room and his defense is a plus.

I can't believe you're comparing him with Fultz who may just have the permanent case of yips. And we didn't give up another potential lottery pick.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:53 am    Post subject:

Lonzo has yet to have an off-season to work on his game on a basketball court. That is fact.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Threatt_Level wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
How different? We didn't give up another then-top 3 2019 pick (now it's better but likely will be a lottery pick).


But we have as much "sunk cost" in Lonzo as the Sixers do in Fultz. We didn't give up another pick to get Lonzo, but we passed on much better players even though he didn't workout well with us.


He isn't a sunk cost yet. It's literally 1 year and summer knee surgery. He clearly put in the work in the weight room and his defense is a plus.

I can't believe you're comparing him with Fultz who may just have the permanent case of yips. And we didn't give up another potential lottery pick.


Yeah those two cases aren't comparable. I will say though, in a way Lonzo is a sunk cost because no one will pay a price for him equivalent to making us whole (or better).

We just gotta ride out the roller coaster with him.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Folks, he's particularly bad on the road this season. Time to accept that. Weird thing is, he was better on the road than home last season.

Maybe next season that'll even itself out.

At home (FG%): 42.3%
On the road (FG%): 32.4%

At home (3pt%): 43.3%
On the road (3pt%): 16.1%

But you gotta set your expectations when Lonzo is on the road this season, unfortunately.


This is why having Rondo will be very helpful to the team down the road. Right now he's just gutting it out. But Rondo provides the team with a bit of room when Lonzo hits these stretches.


Yeah, and more so than the shooting, I do wish Lonzo had more of an ability to create looks for others. That way, when his shot is off, which frankly is more often than we all like, he could at least set others up.


Lonzo doesn't shoot often enough for him to know when his shot is off for that game.

He takes 8 fga per game. When would he make the determination that his shot is off for the game? On the 4th shot? 5th shot?

0-4? 1-5?

Once he gets to 1-5, he only has 3 shots left anyways, might as well empty that clip.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:58 am    Post subject:


(4:50 - 5:10) Watch Zo.

For the record, Zo has held other opposing PGs to 32% this season when defending them.

LongBeachPoly wrote:

Lonzo doesn't shoot often enough for him to know when his shot is off for that game.

He takes 8 fga per game. When would he make the determination that his shot is off for the game? On the 4th shot? 5th shot?

0-4? 1-5?

Once he gets to 1-5, he only has 3 shots left anyways, might as well empty that clip.


Ran over to basketball-reference and didn't check to see that he's been shooting 11 FGA a game in December(6 Games) I assume?

Seems like a trend that's going to continue as well, his FGA has gone up, in particular after he's started playing aggressively, whether his shot was falling or not.
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Last edited by MJST on Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:01 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:59 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Lonzo isn't completely broken. I still think he can be a very productive and useful player.


I think so too and there is value in that.
He can be our Marcus Smart, which wouldn't be the end of the world, Smart is not a half bad player.
We just need to reconsider the construction of the rest of the squad.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Lonzo has yet to have an off-season to work on his game on a basketball court. That is fact.


Life is unfair
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Folks, he's particularly bad on the road this season. Time to accept that. Weird thing is, he was better on the road than home last season.

Maybe next season that'll even itself out.

At home (FG%): 42.3%
On the road (FG%): 32.4%

At home (3pt%): 43.3%
On the road (3pt%): 16.1%

But you gotta set your expectations when Lonzo is on the road this season, unfortunately.


This is why having Rondo will be very helpful to the team down the road. Right now he's just gutting it out. But Rondo provides the team with a bit of room when Lonzo hits these stretches.


Yeah, and more so than the shooting, I do wish Lonzo had more of an ability to create looks for others. That way, when his shot is off, which frankly is more often than we all like, he could at least set others up.


Lonzo doesn't shoot often enough for him to know when his shot is off for that game.

He takes 8 fga per game. When would he make the determination that his shot is off for the game? On the 4th shot? 5th shot?

0-4? 1-5?

Once he gets to 1-5, he only has 3 shots left anyways, might as well empty that clip.


He does noticeably sink his head and lose confidence when he misses his first shots. That's mental. Need someone to work with his confidence. I mean Kuz and BI are not bashful. They can brick and keep on going.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
MJST wrote:
Lonzo has yet to have an off-season to work on his game on a basketball court. That is fact.


Life is unfair


And maybe we can give him more than 1.25 seasons?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
MJST wrote:
Lonzo has yet to have an off-season to work on his game on a basketball court. That is fact.


Life is unfair


Holding his lack of an off-season cause he was hurt, against him isn't being 'real cause life is unfair'. It's being biased without logic.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject:

Lonzo doesn't have to be a scorer. Magic told him that. He needs to be a facilitator, and be competent on the defensive end, which is what he has improved on.

He will never be someone who will put up big numbers, which is fine. I will say that he needs to develop one specialty shot (long range, mid, or in close) so that he can get us at least 10 ppg. And he, as well as all NBA players, needs to have the ability to finish a layup, which he has struggled with.

He'll be fine as long as he accepts his role and not to try live up to a role projected onto him from fans.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
MJST wrote:
Lonzo has yet to have an off-season to work on his game on a basketball court. That is fact.


Life is unfair


Holding his lack of an off-season cause he was hurt, against him isn't being 'real cause life is unfair'. It's being biased without logic.


Ok, so you're saying people are being unfair to Lonzo?
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:11 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Folks, he's particularly bad on the road this season. Time to accept that. Weird thing is, he was better on the road than home last season.

Maybe next season that'll even itself out.

At home (FG%): 42.3%
On the road (FG%): 32.4%

At home (3pt%): 43.3%
On the road (3pt%): 16.1%

But you gotta set your expectations when Lonzo is on the road this season, unfortunately.


This is why having Rondo will be very helpful to the team down the road. Right now he's just gutting it out. But Rondo provides the team with a bit of room when Lonzo hits these stretches.


Yeah, and more so than the shooting, I do wish Lonzo had more of an ability to create looks for others. That way, when his shot is off, which frankly is more often than we all like, he could at least set others up.


Lonzo doesn't shoot often enough for him to know when his shot is off for that game.

He takes 8 fga per game. When would he make the determination that his shot is off for the game? On the 4th shot? 5th shot?

0-4? 1-5?

Once he gets to 1-5, he only has 3 shots left anyways, might as well empty that clip.


He would make that determination based on how he feels. I don't think it's at the same point in every game. Remember that game where he had a wide open layup with no defender and he corkscrwed around and tried to give it to Chandler? He was 1-3 at that time.

The "empty the clip" mentality is something Lonzo doesn't have. I might even argue if he did have that mentality, his percentages would go up since there is less pressure when you're just emptying the clip.

Anyway, my point is, sometimes, you just don't "feel" that you have it, whether it is justified or not, and so I think when that is the case, it would ideal if they could directly contribute offensively in other ways. Get to the line, create looks for others, etc.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:11 am    Post subject:

I will say he has not lived up to the high standards of a #2 pick as of now. But I need more than 1.25 seasons to make a final call on him.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:11 am    Post subject:

troy wrote:
Lonzo doesn't have to be a scorer. Magic told him that. He needs to be a facilitator, and be competent on the defensive end, which is what he has improved on.

He will never be someone who will put up big numbers, which is fine. I will say that he needs to develop one specialty shot (long range, mid, or in close) so that he can get us at least 10 ppg. And he, as well as all NBA players, needs to have the ability to finish a layup, which he has struggled with.

He'll be fine as long as he accepts his role and not to try live up to a role projected onto him from fans.


Then we shouldn't have picked him second. Being the second pick in a deep draft comes with the expectation that he's a future franchise player. This isn't the fault of the fans. This is the fault of the front office.

Magic saying he should just concentrate on being a facilitator and not worry about the rest is just Magic trying to save his own ass for making a colossal blunder. Not trading Ingram for Cousins cost Jim and Mitch their jobs, and Jeannie has to be wondering what the (bleep) we just did with Lonzo.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:13 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
MJST wrote:
Lonzo has yet to have an off-season to work on his game on a basketball court. That is fact.


Life is unfair


And maybe we can give him more than 1.25 seasons?


What is this "we" stuff? Is he on the trading block or something?
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