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ringfinger
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 Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Wasn't Kyrie drafted no. 1? Any other teams you can think of? |
Yeah, good point.
Lakers 2000-2002? |
Kobe drafted no. 13? |
Nope. He was drafted by the Hornets. Hornets then traded him to the Lakers for Vlade. So he was an acquisition. |
That's pretty technical. Jerry West wanted Kobe. Hornets were making the draft for the Lakers.
But the topic is about the draft being a crapshoot.
Kobe hadn't played in the league yet. Was a drafted player. I don't see the difference between trading Vlade for the no. 13 pick then drafting Kobe, vs. Charlotte drafting Kobe then trading him to the Lakers.
Would it be less of a crapshoot that way? Seems like the same.
I mean, would it be less of a crapshoot if we let someone else draft Lonzo then trade for him on draft day? |
Well, exactly, that's why I consider it a trade and not a drafted scenario because West was specifically targeting a player and not a pick. It's different when you trade for a pick, not knowing who will be available, and pick what you want with what is left over. It's different when you go and specifically target a player and acquire him or have the other team acquire him on your behalf which by all accounts did not occur in this case.
The difference is that the Lakers weren't after the 13th pick. They were specifically after Kobe Bryant regardless of what team took him and where. If he were drafted 14th instead, I think they still would have made moves to get him.
Sure, it's still a crapshoot though, I agree.
In either case, I'm not sure what we are debating on. I think all components of acquiring talent are necessary to build a championship and I'm pretty sure all championship teams have a drafted player that was key to their success, and, acquisitions as well. |
No, I don't know what you are debating.
This topic started with Vanquish saying that drafts are a crapshoot and we should focus on other avenues.
So it would actually be up to him to define what a "draft" is.
Now, I can't see how Charlotte drafting Kobe and trading him to us would make it any less of a crapshoot because now it's defined as a trade (but you never know).
But seems like you're saying it's more of a crapshoot if we traded Vlade for the no. 13 pick and drafted him and less of a crapshoot if we let Charlotte draft him first then trade for him.
Seems the same to me. |
But Vanquish also stated that, like myself, he believes you have to pursue ALL avenues. And that if you don't hit a superstar in the draft, that it's ok because you have other avenues to acquire one. I think that's fair.
Let me try to explain regarding Kobe.
If the Lakers had gone and traded Vlade for the 13th overall pick months in advance, there would have been no assurances that Kobe would have still been there. So in that event, I would consider Kobe a player drafted by the Lakers.
But that's not what happened. The Lakers specifically targeted Kobe Bryant, regardless of where he was drafted and by whom. Therefore, it was a trade acquisition.
Whether Kobe was drafted or traded for is irrelevant. Any time you acquire, by any method, a young player with little or no experience, there is some luck involved. Obsessing over the method is pointless, as it is not the method that introduces the element of luck, it is the acquisition of a player with little to no experience that does. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: |
But Vanquish also stated that, like myself, he believes you have to pursue ALL avenues. And that if you don't hit a superstar in the draft, that it's ok because you have other avenues to acquire one. I think that's fair.
Let me try to explain regarding Kobe.
If the Lakers had gone and traded Vlade for the 13th overall pick months in advance, there would have been no assurances that Kobe would have still been there. So in that event, I would consider Kobe a player drafted by the Lakers.
But that's not what happened. The Lakers specifically targeted Kobe Bryant, regardless of where he was drafted and by whom. Therefore, it was a trade acquisition.
Whether Kobe was drafted or traded for is irrelevant. Any time you acquire, by any method, a young player with little or no experience, there is some luck involved. Obsessing over the method is pointless, as it is not the method that introduces the element of luck, it is the acquisition of a player with little to no experience that does. |
Ok. Still not even sure what it is you're debating but thanks for the contribution.
Let's agree to be confused? |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
But Vanquish also stated that, like myself, he believes you have to pursue ALL avenues. And that if you don't hit a superstar in the draft, that it's ok because you have other avenues to acquire one. I think that's fair.
Let me try to explain regarding Kobe.
If the Lakers had gone and traded Vlade for the 13th overall pick months in advance, there would have been no assurances that Kobe would have still been there. So in that event, I would consider Kobe a player drafted by the Lakers.
But that's not what happened. The Lakers specifically targeted Kobe Bryant, regardless of where he was drafted and by whom. Therefore, it was a trade acquisition.
Whether Kobe was drafted or traded for is irrelevant. Any time you acquire, by any method, a young player with little or no experience, there is some luck involved. Obsessing over the method is pointless, as it is not the method that introduces the element of luck, it is the acquisition of a player with little to no experience that does. |
Ok. Still not even sure what it is you're debating but thanks for the contribution.
Let's agree to be confused? |
I'm not confused so I can't agree to that. =)
It all started with you asking "So can you come up with a recent championship team that didn't draft at least one superstar?"
Teams like Detroit Pistons were pointed out as was 2000 years Lakers (where Kobe and Shaq were acquired by trade). You could also probably point to the Mavericks in the Dirk years (he was acquired on draft day, not picked).
I think the Lakers in particular, are a good example of a scenario where we didn't draft a superstar, but we did have to develop a player into one. Maybe that's where we need to start the conversation, rather than focus on the method of acquisition which, as you have stated yourself, is moot. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
But Vanquish also stated that, like myself, he believes you have to pursue ALL avenues. And that if you don't hit a superstar in the draft, that it's ok because you have other avenues to acquire one. I think that's fair.
Let me try to explain regarding Kobe.
If the Lakers had gone and traded Vlade for the 13th overall pick months in advance, there would have been no assurances that Kobe would have still been there. So in that event, I would consider Kobe a player drafted by the Lakers.
But that's not what happened. The Lakers specifically targeted Kobe Bryant, regardless of where he was drafted and by whom. Therefore, it was a trade acquisition.
Whether Kobe was drafted or traded for is irrelevant. Any time you acquire, by any method, a young player with little or no experience, there is some luck involved. Obsessing over the method is pointless, as it is not the method that introduces the element of luck, it is the acquisition of a player with little to no experience that does. |
Ok. Still not even sure what it is you're debating but thanks for the contribution.
Let's agree to be confused? |
I'm not confused so I can't agree to that. =)
It all started with you asking "So can you come up with a recent championship team that didn't draft at least one superstar?"
Teams like Detroit Pistons were pointed out as was 2000 years Lakers (where Kobe and Shaq were acquired by trade). You could also probably point to the Mavericks in the Dirk years (he was acquired on draft day, not picked).
I think the Lakers in particular, are a good example of a scenario where we didn't draft a superstar, but we did have to develop a player into one. Maybe that's where we need to start the conversation, rather than focus on the method of acquisition which, as you have stated yourself, is moot. |
But I had an ongoing conversation with Vanguish - so whatever he meant by "draft."
You came in, now you want to distinguish between drafts and drafts acquired via trade...
But yet, you say they're irrelevant...
So yeah, I have no idea what exactly it is we are debating.
But all of my responses are within the parameters of Vanguishes' original premise - that's all I can say.
All I know is, Vanguish had a point he was making - about draft picks being a crapshoot and they rarely work out. So I was asking him has any team won a championship w/o drafting a superstar (again, however he wanted to define "drafting"). Again, I was challenging his premise - so it's however he wants to define his premise.
Now, if you feel he wanted to distinguish draft picks from draft picks acquired via trade - then so be it. Seems kind of odd. But unless you're really going to speak in his place, I really have no idea what it is we're debating here.
And your explanation of how the Lakers targeted Kobe - was odd to me. Because I don't see the relevance of that. There's draft day trades. The Spurs targeted Kawhi and got him in a draft day trade. The Jazz targeted Donovan Mitchell last year and got him in a draft day trade. I don't see the difference. The Magic drafted Webber and traded him for Penny Hardaway.
But my offer stands. We can agree to be confused. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:13 am Post subject: |
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^ Fair enough LBP. I was under the impression you felt that drafting was more important than other means of acquisition.
I just think they are all equally important, and that all championship teams have been able to win by utilizing ALL of those tactics in a variety of ways. Some more via draft, and some more via trade, and some more via FA, and most utilizing all 3. |
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lakerican
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| It is fair to conclude that Maginka overruled Jesse & RWest in the Lonzo pick? |
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epak
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| lakerican wrote: | | It is fair to conclude that Maginka overruled Jesse & RWest in the Lonzo pick? |
Who did Jesse and West want? |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | ^ Fair enough LBP. I was under the impression you felt that drafting was more important than other means of acquisition.
I just think they are all equally important, and that all championship teams have been able to win by utilizing ALL of those tactics in a variety of ways. Some more via draft, and some more via trade, and some more via FA, and most utilizing all 3. |
Yeah, I actually think drafting is the most important part of a rebuilding team. And the reason is - it's a chicken and egg thing.
What comes first for a rebuilding team? Signing free agents? Well, free agents don't want to go to a barren team. Trades? Well, you need assets to trade. It all starts with the draft when you're rebuilding. You've got to hit on those first. Then you can make use of trades and free agents.
Look at how the Lakers were able to get Shaq and Kobe. How did it start?
Well, we had some pretty good draft picks prior to Shaq - Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Vlade, Elden Campbell. We made it to the 2nd rd and that was able to attract Shaq.
So, it all starts with drafting when you are going through a rebuild. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| lakerican wrote: | | It is fair to conclude that Maginka overruled Jesse & RWest in the Lonzo pick? |
Why? Ball was the consensus #2 pick in that draft. I don’t fault the Lakers for making the pick. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | ^ Fair enough LBP. I was under the impression you felt that drafting was more important than other means of acquisition.
I just think they are all equally important, and that all championship teams have been able to win by utilizing ALL of those tactics in a variety of ways. Some more via draft, and some more via trade, and some more via FA, and most utilizing all 3. |
Yeah, I actually think drafting is the most important part of a rebuilding team. And the reason is - it's a chicken and egg thing.
What comes first for a rebuilding team? Signing free agents? Well, free agents don't want to go to a barren team. Trades? Well, you need assets to trade. It all starts with the draft when you're rebuilding. You've got to hit on those first. Then you can make use of trades and free agents.
Look at how the Lakers were able to get Shaq and Kobe. How did it start?
Well, we had some pretty good draft picks prior to Shaq - Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Vlade, Elden Campbell. We made it to the 2nd rd and that was able to attract Shaq.
So, it all starts with drafting when you are going through a rebuild. |
Hmm. I would say our rebuild started with Shaq, actually. I guess it depends on how you view it. None of the drafted guys you mention were part of the championship teams. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | ^ Fair enough LBP. I was under the impression you felt that drafting was more important than other means of acquisition.
I just think they are all equally important, and that all championship teams have been able to win by utilizing ALL of those tactics in a variety of ways. Some more via draft, and some more via trade, and some more via FA, and most utilizing all 3. |
Yeah, I actually think drafting is the most important part of a rebuilding team. And the reason is - it's a chicken and egg thing.
What comes first for a rebuilding team? Signing free agents? Well, free agents don't want to go to a barren team. Trades? Well, you need assets to trade. It all starts with the draft when you're rebuilding. You've got to hit on those first. Then you can make use of trades and free agents.
Look at how the Lakers were able to get Shaq and Kobe. How did it start?
Well, we had some pretty good draft picks prior to Shaq - Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Vlade, Elden Campbell. We made it to the 2nd rd and that was able to attract Shaq.
So, it all starts with drafting when you are going through a rebuild. |
Hmm. I would say our rebuild started with Shaq, actually. I guess it depends on how you view it. None of the drafted guys you mention were part of the championship teams. |
Our rebuild started when Magic retired, not when we got Shaq.
When did this current rebuild start? I'd say when Kobe tore his achilles.
And saying none of the guys were part of the championship teams - is another odd statement by you. Because you mentioned that trades were one of the important avenues of building a championship team. But in order to complete a trade, you need trade assets. And by definition, when you trade assets, they are no longer a part of the team. But, that doesn't mean you didn't need them to build the team. So, that's just odd.
Vlade was traded to acquire Kobe. Kobe wasn't given to us for free.
Eddie Jones was traded for Glen Rice.
Van Exel traded for Ty Lue.
And all of them helping us make the 2nd rd of the playoffs was enough to entice Shaq to come sign here.
But yeah, you sure are one confusing dude - or your logic is. Trades are important, but the assets used in the trade are irrelevant? |
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The God Particle
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Vanquish wrote: | | The God Particle wrote: | | Vanquish wrote: |
| Username wrote: | It's because we are in a win-now spotlight with LBJ here that our fanbase is losing patience with its young guys. I mean look at the other bottom dwellers and fans are more patient with their top picks.
Because most of those other fanbases don't know any better. They're perennial losers who are programmed to accept it. The Lakers know greatness and have experienced it for decades, and if you've lived through that greatness and witnessed it first hand, it's pretty clear to see Lonzo ain't it. |
As an aside, I don't think there are that many no 2 picks who actually proceed to be all stars let alone HOFs. The entire draft process is a crap shoot in my opinion, so I'm happy if we get a starting rotation player which I think Lonzo will be. I still consider Rondo to be the starter over Lonzo at this stage of their careers. |
I'm not sure that's the point. The fact is with the #2 pick, we had the second best opportunity at selecting the player in the draft (sans 1 player) to select the all-star or HOF in the draft. Now if no player in his draft turns into all-stars or HOF then we can say "it wouldn't have mattered".
If drafting is a crapshoot, find me a HOF or All-star that was selected with let's say... hmm... with the 58th pick. Exactly. |
On a 2015 article on nba.com, it has been stated that since 1980, the percentage of no 2 picks becoming all stars is around 33-34%
https://www.nba.com/magic/gallery/cohen-8ball-history-picking-1-8-nba-draft-percentage-all-stars-1980
That's 33% for an all star, not even a HOFer where the odds are way lower. Are the odds better at no 2 than at no 58 for drafting an all star? Sure, I will agree with you there.
However, I still stand by my initial point that it is actually much more likely to end up with a non all-star at no 2 than getting one (66% vs 34%). Consequently, I will be happy at getting a rotation level player though of course if we get an all star/HOF i'll be overjoyed. I'll be happy because getting all star at no 2 is a welcome deviation rather than the normal outcome aka we did better than we should have.
ETA: With respect to finding an all star selected at 58th, we had such a player who played for us last season though he was selected at 60th by the Kings. Isiah Thomas, 2 time all star (2016,2017) and one time all nba (2017). There's also Manu Ginobili, selected at 57th by the Spurs ( 2 time All Star, 2 time All NBA) |
#2 picks have on average, outperformed the average player at every other draft position except for one, that being the #1 pick. |
So it isn't a crapshoot. |
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The God Particle
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| disregard previous post..I see it's already be beat to death. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | Our rebuild started when Magic retired, not when we got Shaq.
When did this current rebuild start? I'd say when Kobe tore his achilles.
And saying none of the guys were part of the championship teams - is another odd statement by you. Because you mentioned that trades were one of the important avenues of building a championship team. But in order to complete a trade, you need trade assets. And by definition, when you trade assets, they are no longer a part of the team. But, that doesn't mean you didn't need them to build the team. So, that's just odd.
Vlade was traded to acquire Kobe. Kobe wasn't given to us for free.
Eddie Jones was traded for Glen Rice.
Van Exel traded for Ty Lue.
And all of them helping us make the 2nd rd of the playoffs was enough to entice Shaq to come sign here.
But yeah, you sure are one confusing dude - or your logic is. Trades are important, but the assets used in the trade are irrelevant? |
Well, are we talking about kicking off the construction of a championship roster or kicking off a rebuild? Two different things.
I know what you mean -- that, in order to start the construction of your championship roster, you have to have gone through some kind of rebuilding process. I just don't see it that way, I see them as two different phases particularly because many teams are perennially rebuilding.
I mean, when to you, was the Celtics championship roster born? I would say the moment they acquired KG. Not 1998 when Paul Pierce was drafted. |
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lakersfever714
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | -21! Ouch! Is he not even trying on defense anymore? We've been able to "absorb" his bad games and still pull out victories against weaker teams but that's not gonna happen against good teams.
Lebron could get us to the final (West Conf final) but we'd need everyone's contribution if we were to win it all. Still have more than half a season left to optimize the team. Hopefully, the people in charge will make the right decisions. |
Isn't this why we got Rondo?
Depending on a 2nd year 21 year old PG deep into the playoffs is probably unrealistic anyways. |
Rondo is just as bad as Lonzo from threes and we don't need his ball handling if Lebron was gonna do it. Not sure what Magic was thinking. He put us in this situation. It's like pick your poison. Lonzo or Rondo?
Rondo hot shooting streak at the beginning of the season was just that. A streak. His career 3-pt fg percentage is almost identical to that of Lonzo. Forget Lonzo or Rondo. I was thinking start Hart at 1 and KCP at 2.
Magic won the championship as a rookie. We don't need Lonzo to be anywhere like Magic. All I want from Lonzo is just don't be the statistical worst shooter in the NBA (3-pt and FT) or can attack the basket competently on a consistent basis.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | -21! Ouch! Is he not even trying on defense anymore? We've been able to "absorb" his bad games and still pull out victories against weaker teams but that's not gonna happen against good teams.
Lebron could get us to the final (West Conf final) but we'd need everyone's contribution if we were to win it all. Still have more than half a season left to optimize the team. Hopefully, the people in charge will make the right decisions. |
Isn't this why we got Rondo?
Depending on a 2nd year 21 year old PG deep into the playoffs is probably unrealistic anyways. |
Rondo is just as bad as Lonzo from threes and we don't need his ball handling if Lebron was gonna do it. Not sure what Magic was thinking. He put us in this situation. It's like pick your poison. Lonzo or Rondo?
Rondo hot shooting streak at the beginning of the season was just that. A streak. His career 3-pt fg percentage is almost identical to that of Lonzo. Forget Lonzo or Rondo. I was thinking start Hart at 1 and KCP at 2.
Magic won the championship as a rookie. We don't need Lonzo to be anywhere like Magic. All I want from Lonzo is just don't be the statistical worst shooter in the NBA (3-pt and FT) or can attack the basket competently on a consistent basis. |
Then he’s already giving you what you want. |
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lakersfever714
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | -21! Ouch! Is he not even trying on defense anymore? We've been able to "absorb" his bad games and still pull out victories against weaker teams but that's not gonna happen against good teams.
Lebron could get us to the final (West Conf final) but we'd need everyone's contribution if we were to win it all. Still have more than half a season left to optimize the team. Hopefully, the people in charge will make the right decisions. |
Isn't this why we got Rondo?
Depending on a 2nd year 21 year old PG deep into the playoffs is probably unrealistic anyways. |
Rondo is just as bad as Lonzo from threes and we don't need his ball handling if Lebron was gonna do it. Not sure what Magic was thinking. He put us in this situation. It's like pick your poison. Lonzo or Rondo?
Rondo hot shooting streak at the beginning of the season was just that. A streak. His career 3-pt fg percentage is almost identical to that of Lonzo. Forget Lonzo or Rondo. I was thinking start Hart at 1 and KCP at 2.
Magic won the championship as a rookie. We don't need Lonzo to be anywhere like Magic. All I want from Lonzo is just don't be the statistical worst shooter in the NBA (3-pt and FT) or can attack the basket competently on a consistent basis. |
Then he’s already giving you what you want. |
Not literally the worst shooter but he is definitely down there. I hope he has a good game. He can't possibly get any worse. Also, the thing about his FT shooting is that it's so bad it's actually better if he doesn't attack the basket and get fouled. He needs to fix his FT shooting first before he attempts to attack the basket and draws fouls.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Not literally the worst shooter but worst shooter overall? |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | lakerican wrote: | | It is fair to conclude that Maginka overruled Jesse & RWest in the Lonzo pick? |
Why? Ball was the consensus #2 pick in that draft. I don’t fault the Lakers for making the pick. |
he was not the consensus 2nd best player in the draft.....not even commonly listed as the 2nd best player. He became a "consensus mock draft #2 pick" when the Lakers got the 2nd pick. Most big boards had Tatum and Jackson ahead of Ball....many even listed guys like Dennis Smith Jr. ahead of Ball. I think Ball was mostly listed #4-#6 on most big boards before the lottery. |
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epak
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Mike Trudell
@LakersReporter
After praising how well Kuzma has been playing lately, Hornets coach James Borrego - who said he was a Lakers fan growing up, that he loved Showtime and got hooked on it - noted that he liked how Lonzo Ball plays: “He’s doing a lot of things out there that don’t go unnoticed.” |
Sounds right |
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LakerLogic
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Trying to hold off calling him a bust until next after he has a full summer to improve, I am not optimistic at all. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Hmm. I would say our rebuild started with Shaq, actually. I guess it depends on how you view it. None of the drafted guys you mention were part of the championship teams.with Shaq, actually. |
| ringfinger wrote: | Well, are we talking about kicking off the construction of a championship roster or kicking off a rebuild? Two different things.
I know what you mean -- that, in order to start the construction of your championship roster, you have to have gone through some kind of rebuilding process. I just don't see it that way, I see them as two different phases particularly because many teams are perennially rebuilding.
I mean, when to you, was the Celtics championship roster born? I would say the moment they acquired KG. Not 1998 when Paul Pierce was drafted. |
Yeah, I've never even heard of "kicking off the construction of a championship roster.". So, once again, you've got me confused.
I've never ever heard them break it up into phases like that. Today's the first day I've heard about the "start of the construction of your championship roster" phase.
Yeah, having a conversation with you sure is difficult. You have these logical separators in your head that no one's ever heard of.
Here you are saying "the rebuild started with Shaq" and in your head, rebuild to you means 2 totally different things:
1) kicking off a rebuild or
2) kicking off the construction of a championship roster
I've only used rebuild to mean one thing. Rebuild. I've never heard of anyone using rebuild to mean - kicking off the construction of a championship roster. I've never even heard of that phase, but apparently you have.
And you use rebuild for either phase. You're one interesting dude. Yeah if I answer your question regarding the Celtics "championship roster phase" - I think I'll just be going down some rabbit hole.
Thanks for the discussion though. |
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noahp45
Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 6572
Location: Oceanside Ca
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Im Just here to look at what the Ball haters had to say. |
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AirTupac
Star Player
Joined: 04 Feb 2018
Posts: 1234
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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WHAT A GAME  |
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giordan0
Star Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Good allrounded game by the kid today. |
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