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Ziggy
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Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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 Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Jesusdelonla wrote: | | Quote: | | Lowe: Lonzo has looked more explosive/athletic in the last week or so. Makes sense it would take him a while to get all the way back after knee surgery over the summer. |
Agree |
Yes. The lack of explosion is apparent in his block rate. It was much higher last season. Still doesn't look 100%. He's starting to come around though. |
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MJST
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Joined: 06 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Quote: | Walton said -- and also expressed amazement that only two pairs of Lakers teammates turned in triple-double duty on the same night before.
"I know it's not easy, but there's been a lot of good players in Lakers history," he said. "I figured Walton and Kobe [Bryant] would have done it a few times." |
Good one, Luke. |
They actually came pretty close I believe.
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Bol
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 4045
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSD wrote: | The Lonzo of last night totally changes the dynamic of this team.
The Lakers become so much more dangerous than just 1. Lebron ball or 2. Kuz/Lebron 2 man game. They become a triple threat, and if they ever add that 4th dimension of knockdown shooting to space the floor  |
Svi and Mo got it covered. |
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Number 7
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Location: Greece
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Bol wrote: | | LakerSD wrote: | The Lonzo of last night totally changes the dynamic of this team.
The Lakers become so much more dangerous than just 1. Lebron ball or 2. Kuz/Lebron 2 man game. They become a triple threat, and if they ever add that 4th dimension of knockdown shooting to space the floor |
Svi and Mo got it covered. |
MoSvi |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| lakersboy wrote: | The league is filled with good players who in the beginning showed flashes, and then later mastered how to become consistent. Very few, ever, were consistent at Lonzo's age. Once a good player achieves consistency, he becomes worthy of all-star consideration. How many players 2.5 years removed from high school, fit that description, past or present? Feel free to search the HOF and you'll struggle to find them. Factor in the missed off season while we see the occasional "that's what we've been waiting for" games, and we have the flashes that good players show. It's like water beginning to boil. The process is happening, but you're not going to rush it with criticism.
You mentioned others who show "signs" of stardom, in other words, they're also inconsistent. Zo showed signs of stardom last night, but the things he does and the circumstances he does them in are different from those others. I have no doubt from the "signs" I've seen, this is a guy on his way to stardom, but feel free to doubt. |
Consistency is a different issue. At this point, Ball has shown an occasional flash, like last night. He has not shown signs of stardom. If he regularly posted games like last night, with the occasional stinker, then he would be showing signs of stardom with consistency issues. But it’s closer to the other way around.
Ball is 21. Derrick Rose won an MVP at 22. For better or worse, this is a league full of guys who showed up only a short time after high school. The average player reaches his physical peak at 25 and begins to decline after that. This all matters because some players will make a leap and others will not, whether due to mentality, injury, or some other circumstance. Exum and Mudiay are examples of the latter, but there have been many more.
I call it like I see it. If Ball shows signs of making a leap, I’ll say so. Early in the season, I was happy because his shooting was improved. It didn’t last. After last night’s good shooting, his TS% is up to a whopping .473. He’s a good defensive player with good passing skills, but an overall liability on offense. He could become more than that, but he needs to start doing it. |
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Beir32
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Joined: 16 Feb 2016
Posts: 1710
Location: Western PA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | Here's a few points to ponder: there was a time that only seniors were eligible for the NBA draft. That meant that the majority of players were in the 22 to 23 year old range when they entered the league. A 22 or 23 years old rookie would have also sat on the bench for the first couple of years. My points?
Kids like ZO, Ingram, etc., are literally growing into their bodies, their emotions, and there comprehension of life. This young man is going through this internal process while (a) not being able to work out this summer (b) adjust his game to one of the all time greats. And a few other significant factors.
Despite this, he is already a bona fide defensive hound with length, quick hands, and the ability to read offenses like Rondo. We all, ok maybe just me, thought that he was going to be an offensive dynamo. Turns out, defense is his forte.
Time, which this generation raised on microwaves is oblivious too, and work, are his greatest allies. It's a process. Trust it! |
You're about the thousandth person to express this. That's cool, but there's a flip side. No one made Ball turn pro after one year of college. No one made Ball take the millions of dollars that come with being the #2 pick in the draft. He could have stayed in college and polished his game. No one made him "take his talents" to the NBA.
That is the standard by which he will be judged. Some of his peers -- Tatum, Fox, Mitchell, Markkanen -- and even guys who came after him like Doncic, have shown signs of stardom. At this point, Ball is a good defensive point guard. Well, you don't burn a #2 pick on a good defensive point guard.
At some point, Ball has to make a leap. He still has time to do it. But it is not guaranteed that he will ever make a leap. I've mentioned Exum and Mudiay before. But really, there are a lot of guys like that. Detroit offered Casey P. an $80M deal after four years. They must have thought he was about to break out.
Time can be just as much of an excuse as an ally. The process does not always work. At some point, the kid needs to get it together. He is playing in a league full of other kids who got it together. At some point in the near future, the hype needs to translate to reality, or else his dad can produce a 30 for 30 starring Lonzo Ball, Dante Exum, and Emmanuel Mudiay entitled "The Process F'ed Me." |
Unless you can name another player who was going to go top 2 and decided not to…in order to work on his game for free while risking injury before the pen hits the paper for his financial security then you can keep this first paragraph. All your other points are fine. |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Oof. If you're looking for "offensive stardom" through individual numbers, Lonzo Ball was NOT that guy in the NBA Draft and the scouts everywhere knew it.
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King Randle
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Joined: 21 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | lakersboy wrote: | The league is filled with good players who in the beginning showed flashes, and then later mastered how to become consistent. Very few, ever, were consistent at Lonzo's age. Once a good player achieves consistency, he becomes worthy of all-star consideration. How many players 2.5 years removed from high school, fit that description, past or present? Feel free to search the HOF and you'll struggle to find them. Factor in the missed off season while we see the occasional "that's what we've been waiting for" games, and we have the flashes that good players show. It's like water beginning to boil. The process is happening, but you're not going to rush it with criticism.
You mentioned others who show "signs" of stardom, in other words, they're also inconsistent. Zo showed signs of stardom last night, but the things he does and the circumstances he does them in are different from those others. I have no doubt from the "signs" I've seen, this is a guy on his way to stardom, but feel free to doubt. |
Consistency is a different issue. At this point, Ball has shown an occasional flash, like last night. He has not shown signs of stardom. If he regularly posted games like last night, with the occasional stinker, then he would be showing signs of stardom with consistency issues. But it’s closer to the other way around.
Ball is 21. Derrick Rose won an MVP at 22. For better or worse, this is a league full of guys who showed up only a short time after high school. The average player reaches his physical peak at 25 and begins to decline after that. This all matters because some players will make a leap and others will not, whether due to mentality, injury, or some other circumstance. Exum and Mudiay are examples of the latter, but there have been many more.
I call it like I see it. If Ball shows signs of making a leap, I’ll say so. Early in the season, I was happy because his shooting was improved. It didn’t last. After last night’s good shooting, his TS% is up to a whopping .473. He’s a good defensive player with good passing skills, but an overall liability on offense. He could become more than that, but he needs to start doing it. |
Good take...but players begin their physical decline after 25? Disagree with that. They are at their phycial and mental peek between the ages of 28-32. Physically they start to come down after that but mentally there better and much more mature so the elite can still dominate in their mid 30’s...Ala Jordan, Bron and even Kobe where the a Achilles injury really did him in. |
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Beir32
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Joined: 16 Feb 2016
Posts: 1710
Location: Western PA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Oof. If you're looking for "offensive stardom" through individual numbers, Lonzo Ball was NOT that guy in the NBA Draft and the scouts everywhere knew it. |
Agreed. However, just to play devil's advocate, a point guard making the majority of his free throws and layups isn't too much to ask, is it?!? (Put away the pitchforks, folks. I'm a big fan or Zo. Just sayin'.  ) |
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 17886
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Beir32 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Oof. If you're looking for "offensive stardom" through individual numbers, Lonzo Ball was NOT that guy in the NBA Draft and the scouts everywhere knew it. |
Agreed. However, just to play devil's advocate, a point guard making the majority of his free throws and layups isn't too much to ask, is it?!? (Put away the pitchforks, folks. I'm a big fan or Zo. Just sayin'. ) |
Yes at minimum. Even if he does the basics at an avg rate he will be an All-Star. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| King Randle wrote: | | Good take...but players begin their physical decline after 25? Disagree with that. They are at their phycial and mental peek between the ages of 28-32. Physically they start to come down after that but mentally there better and much more mature so the elite can still dominate in their mid 30’s...Ala Jordan, Bron and even Kobe where the a Achilles injury really did him in. |
Mentality is different from physical attributes. Skill set is different from physical attributes, too. I’m not making up the age 25 threshold for average physical peak, though. There was an article that we discussed in one of these threads, but I ran a quick search and couldn’t find it. A particular player may have his best seasons after 25 due to mentality, skill set, experience, and so forth, but the average player hits his physical peak at 25. |
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Jack's Room
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Joined: 24 Nov 2018
Posts: 316
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Jesusdelonla wrote: | | Quote: | | Lowe: Lonzo has looked more explosive/athletic in the last week or so. Makes sense it would take him a while to get all the way back after knee surgery over the summer. |
Agree |
Fun fact: Lonzo has more dunks this season (17) than he did all of last season (15). And he's done it in 23 fewer games. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Beir32 wrote: | | Unless you can name another player who was going to go top 2 and decided not to…in order to work on his game for free while risking injury before the pen hits the paper for his financial security then you can keep this first paragraph. All your other points are fine. |
I agree with the financial part. I despise the system that effectively forces kids to play for free so that college coaches and the schools can make money. I hope this is going to change.
Just the same, he took the money and the weight of expectations that goes with it. It’s not fair that the system works this way, but it does. It’s like giving law school graduates the choice of providing free legal services for four years or immediately handling televised death penalty cases. |
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pio2u
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Jack's Room
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Probably only two players in the league that can pull that off: Simmons and Lonzo. |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Jack's Room wrote: |
Probably only two players in the league that can pull that off: Simmons and Lonzo. |
Kevin Love?
Draymond Green?
LeBron?
Westbrook? |
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Jack's Room wrote: |
Probably only two players in the league that can pull that off: Simmons and Lonzo. |
Kevin Love?
Draymond Green?
LeBron?
Westbrook? |
Not sure about Love but yea those two are far from the only ones. It does say something that you could only come up with stars though. |
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Jack's Room
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Jack's Room wrote: |
Probably only two players in the league that can pull that off: Simmons and Lonzo. |
Kevin Love?
Draymond Green?
LeBron?
Westbrook? |
No, you're absolutely right. I was going off the #PointGuardRimProtection hashtag and should've been more clear. Only two point guards that could pull that off, though Westbrook is certainly a third. I haven't seen many of his full outlet passes in a while but here's one from the KD/Harden days. He prefers to grab and go of late. |
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ChickenBeckerman
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Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 2060
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ItsJustMagic wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | hype wrote: | Anyone saying Lonzo has been inconsistent overall doesnt care much about defense because he's been solid all season long there.. You can say his shooting is up and down but pretty much every single other aspect on the court has been consistent.. Do not understand how you can hate on one of our young guys clearly growing as we watch and still having tons of potential left for the future.. I don't even consider that an actual Lakers fan because a fan of the team is going to root for all the players that wear purple and gold regardless. Who roots for a player on there favorite team to play bad?  |
You don’t have to worry about Lonzo being up and down anymore. I heard he’s dialed his head in now so no more offensive struggles. |
You sound bitter. |
Seriously, it's like he's been emotionally hurt by the Balls or something. |
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ChickenBeckerman
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Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 2060
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ChickenBeckerman wrote: | | ChickenBeckerman wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ChickenBeckerman wrote: | | although he's throwing up bricks, I'm actually quite pleased that he's looking to take them, he's actually making good decisions when to take them, when to dish off and when to drive. That part of the equation was severely lacking. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say his shot will start to come around in a big way real soon. Gut feeling. |
Does your gut feeling tell you he's going to turn it around permanently or just temporarily like a roller coaster? |
First off. I saw tonights game coming for a while and am please to see I was spot on in my prediction.
I think it continues and the worst part of Lonzo's woes will soon be behind him.
Maybe a game here or there where he doesn't score much but contributes splendidly everywhere else. But I think the attitude shift that's been occuring over the course of the last 10 or so games is starting to blossom and he'll have even bigger games than the one tonight. Gut Feeling. |
His shot was never really broke. His head just wasn't dialed in probably for a multitude of reasons. I think at some point 2 weeks back or so he decided not to DGAF. Whether he made shots or not he'd be taking em and imposing his game. Saw it in flashes and started to increase gradually, even though he was bricking shots he was making the right decisions consistantly and dynamically. I don't see how anyone else has been missing this. |
Sounds like you’re extremely observant.
So his head is dialed in properly now. That’s good!
I wonder why he didn’t dial his head in sooner.
But now that he’s dialed his head in - I wonder how well he can shoot now? 35%? 40%? 45%? 50%?
Guess it depends how dialed in he is, we’ll see.
I wonder if his FT% will go up as well now that he’s dialed in?
I wonder if he can help Ingram dial in as well so Ingram starts nailing his 3 pointers. |
I seriously doubt you're happy about Lonzo's success yesterday. No biggy, if Lonzo goes 0-12 today then I'm wrong then I'm wrong and hopefully you can be a bit more happy this holiday season. cheers |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16162
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Jack's Room wrote: |
Probably only two players in the league that can pull that off: Simmons and Lonzo. |
Kevin Love?
Draymond Green?
LeBron?
Westbrook? |
Not sure about Love but yea those two are far from the only ones. It does say something that you could only come up with stars though. |
I only needed to come up with 1 other name to challenge the theory and I didn't feel like debating a hypothetical (who's to say Hart couldn't make a block and throw an outlet pass).
Proof: you're already wanting to debate about Love |
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drae
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LakersForever123
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 2261
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenBeckerman wrote: | | ItsJustMagic wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | hype wrote: | | Anyone saying Lonzo has been inconsistent overall doesnt care much about defense because he's been solid all season long there.. You can say his shooting is up and down but pretty much every single other aspect on the court has been consistent.. Do not understand how you can hate on one of our young guys clearly growing as we watch and still having tons of potential left for the future.. I don't even consider that an actual Lakers fan because a fan of the team is going to root for all the players that wear purple and gold regardless. Who roots for a player on there favorite team to play bad? |
You don’t have to worry about Lonzo being up and down anymore. I heard he’s dialed his head in now so no more offensive struggles. |
You sound bitter. |
Seriously, it's like he's been emotionally hurt by the Balls or something. |
Sorry, but this is too funny! Lol. |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16162
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenBeckerman wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ChickenBeckerman wrote: | | ChickenBeckerman wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | ChickenBeckerman wrote: | | although he's throwing up bricks, I'm actually quite pleased that he's looking to take them, he's actually making good decisions when to take them, when to dish off and when to drive. That part of the equation was severely lacking. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say his shot will start to come around in a big way real soon. Gut feeling. |
Does your gut feeling tell you he's going to turn it around permanently or just temporarily like a roller coaster? |
First off. I saw tonights game coming for a while and am please to see I was spot on in my prediction.
I think it continues and the worst part of Lonzo's woes will soon be behind him.
Maybe a game here or there where he doesn't score much but contributes splendidly everywhere else. But I think the attitude shift that's been occuring over the course of the last 10 or so games is starting to blossom and he'll have even bigger games than the one tonight. Gut Feeling. |
His shot was never really broke. His head just wasn't dialed in probably for a multitude of reasons. I think at some point 2 weeks back or so he decided not to DGAF. Whether he made shots or not he'd be taking em and imposing his game. Saw it in flashes and started to increase gradually, even though he was bricking shots he was making the right decisions consistantly and dynamically. I don't see how anyone else has been missing this. |
Sounds like you’re extremely observant.
So his head is dialed in properly now. That’s good!
I wonder why he didn’t dial his head in sooner.
But now that he’s dialed his head in - I wonder how well he can shoot now? 35%? 40%? 45%? 50%?
Guess it depends how dialed in he is, we’ll see.
I wonder if his FT% will go up as well now that he’s dialed in?
I wonder if he can help Ingram dial in as well so Ingram starts nailing his 3 pointers. |
I seriously doubt you're happy about Lonzo's success yesterday. No biggy, if Lonzo goes 0-12 today then I'm wrong then I'm wrong and hopefully you can be a bit more happy this holiday season. cheers |
Dang, I'm trying to support you man.
Let's be positive. Lonzo got his head dialed in. I'm with you on this.
I honestly think Lonzo will have a great game today cuz he's got his head dialed in now.
You have any other theories on other Laker players? Ingram? Has he dialed his head onto his ankle yet? |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16162
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenBeckerman wrote: |
Seriously, it's like he's been emotionally hurt by the Balls or something. |
Man, I thought you were wishing me a happy holiday season there.
Cheers to you friend. |
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