OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:31 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Lonzo and BI can be shutdown artists that you will need around LBJ + 2nd max FA. For those reasons, they can be very productive players to keep.


Who comes off the bench?
We'll cross that bridge when we get there.


Yup. And good problems to have.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:47 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
defense wrote:
Hes no Rubio


One day, maybe. Rubio has had a 28/12/6 game this year, after all.


Lonzo had a similar game in the second one of his career.


Lol yeah I know.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:20 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Lonzo and BI can be shutdown artists that you will need around LBJ + 2nd max FA. For those reasons, they can be very productive players to keep.


Ball did a lot of good things in this game. Shutting down Westbrook wasn't one of them. Westbrook did pretty much whatever he wanted against Ball. Thankfully, he missed several of his shots. Hart seemed more effective against Westbrook. In fact, this is a big part of the reason why Ball and the starting unit spent a big chunk of regulation on the bench. You can see this in the raw +/- stats. Ball was -12, while Hart was +23.

As for Ingram, what a waste. He had 11 assists in the game, but I don't remember anything that I would consider high leverage. I just don't know what to say about that guy.

Anyway, new RPM numbers are out. Ball has an ORPM of -0.87 and a DRPM of +0.53, for a net of -0.34. That's one of his higher scores of the year, if not the highest. He ranks 30th among PGs, between Beverly and Dinwiddie. Ingram has an ORPM of -2.69 and a DRPM of -0.04, for a net of -2.73. He ranks 76th among SFs, between Deandre Bembrey and Miles Bridges.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:24 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Lonzo and BI can be shutdown artists that you will need around LBJ + 2nd max FA. For those reasons, they can be very productive players to keep.


Ball did a lot of good things in this game. Shutting down Westbrook wasn't one of them. Westbrook did pretty much whatever he wanted against Ball. Thankfully, he missed several of his shots. Hart seemed more effective against Westbrook. In fact, this is a big part of the reason why Ball and the starting unit spent a big chunk of regulation on the bench. You can see this in the raw +/- stats. Ball was -12, while Hart was +23.

As for Ingram, what a waste. He had 11 assists in the game, but I don't remember anything that I would consider high leverage. I just don't know what to say about that guy.

Anyway, new RPM numbers are out. Ball has an ORPM of -0.87 and a DRPM of +0.53, for a net of -0.34. That's one of his higher scores of the year, if not the highest. He ranks 30th among PGs, between Beverly and Dinwiddie. Ingram has an ORPM of -2.69 and a DRPM of -0.04, for a net of -2.73. He ranks 76th among SFs, between Deandre Bembrey and Miles Bridges.


You're right, but I still project them to be good defenders in the future, particularly b/c their offensive games lag behind what they can do on the defensive end (and it seems the ORPM/DRPM splits pan out that way too).
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epak
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:47 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Lonzo and BI can be shutdown artists that you will need around LBJ + 2nd max FA. For those reasons, they can be very productive players to keep.


Ball did a lot of good things in this game. Shutting down Westbrook wasn't one of them. Westbrook did pretty much whatever he wanted against Ball. Thankfully, he missed several of his shots. Hart seemed more effective against Westbrook. In fact, this is a big part of the reason why Ball and the starting unit spent a big chunk of regulation on the bench. You can see this in the raw +/- stats. Ball was -12, while Hart was +23.

As for Ingram, what a waste. He had 11 assists in the game, but I don't remember anything that I would consider high leverage. I just don't know what to say about that guy.

Anyway, new RPM numbers are out. Ball has an ORPM of -0.87 and a DRPM of +0.53, for a net of -0.34. That's one of his higher scores of the year, if not the highest. He ranks 30th among PGs, between Beverly and Dinwiddie. Ingram has an ORPM of -2.69 and a DRPM of -0.04, for a net of -2.73. He ranks 76th among SFs, between Deandre Bembrey and Miles Bridges.


Hart played well. But you love to discredit Lonzo's defense whenever you get the chance.

Btw, Westbrook was 2-6 in the first. He and Lonzo both came out near the 3 min mark with the Lakers down 15. By the time Westbrook came back in the 2nd the lead was trimmed to 6. I don't think the 2nd unit got extended play due to shutting down Westbrook while he was on the bench.

To the bench's credit, they helped take the lead when WB got back.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:51 am    Post subject:

Hart is ranked 10th...

Marcus Smart is ranked 6th?

Looney is ranked 6th?

Dwight Powell is ranked 8th?

I'm sorry but this metric has way too many random results for me to take it seriously.

Hart had a great night last night... but anyone with eyes can see he's been very mediocre during the last month.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:21 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Hart played well. But you love to discredit Lonzo's defense whenever you get the chance.

Btw, Westbrook was 2-6 in the first. He and Lonzo both came out near the 3 min mark with the Lakers down 15. By the time Westbrook came back in the 2nd the lead was trimmed to 6. I don't think the 2nd unit got extended play due to shutting down Westbrook while he was on the bench.

To the bench's credit, they helped take the lead when WB got back.


So if Ball has a poor shooting line, it must be because the defense stopped him? That's the logical fallacy here. Ball didn't stop Westbrook. This season, Westbrook has proven himself capable of a bad shooting night against all sorts of defenders. People sometimes accuse me of just reading the box scores and not watching the game. Well, this is the reverse. Westbrook had a poor shooting night, therefore Ball must have shut him down. Um, no.

As for the first quarter, Westbrook had five assists. He basically blew past everyone, including Ball, and dropped the ball off to cutters or wide open three point shooters. He flat out killed us. If he had made some shots, like those two bunny layups he missed, we would have lost the game.

For some reason, Hart was more effective against Westbrook. In fact, Hart has some of the Larry Nance factor going for him. He does a lot of little, unglamorous things that add up. He made three or four little plays down the stretch last night that had an enormous impact on the game. There was one hustle rebound that was critical. He's got some thug in him, and I mean that in the best of ways. He's not afraid of unnecessary contact.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:21 am    Post subject:

Zach Lowe on Lonzo:

Quote:
3. Lonzo Ball, one dribble early

It's still hard to figure how Ball should function in a half-court offense. He won't be a lead ball handler alongside LeBron James. He's not a spot-up guy; he has hit just 32 percent on catch-and-shoot 3s, and he's too smart and hyperactive to stand still. He's like Lowry -- always buzzing around the court, vibrating with activity -- only without a jump shot.
In the half court, you see this a lot:

Yeah, that's Rudy Gobert. He's scary. But Ball pulls up early against ho-hum rim protectors. Ball hasn't pulled Gobert far enough toward himself or the basket to provide Ivica Zubac any advantage. Getting rid of the ball early can be good if doing so catches a key help defender leaning the wrong way. This isn't that.

Perhaps no NBA player is in more dire need of a midrange game. Only 15 percent of Ball's shots have come from between the rim and the 3-point arc, a share that ranks in the lowest possible percentile among guards, per Cleaning The Glass.

Ball could also be shying from contact. He's shooting 41.7 percent from the line on one attempt per game. That is unacceptable. Hassan Whiteside is embarrassed for him.

The Lakers are scoring just 0.82 points per possession when Ball drives, or passes to a teammate who shoots right way -- 220th among 256 players who have recorded at least 50 drives, per Second Spectrum. He averages only 7.5 drives per 100 possessions -- on par with Chandler Hutchison, Kevin Knox, Royce O'Neale, and other guys who weren't drafted to run NBA offenses. (That number leaps to 10.3 with LeBron off the floor -- exactly where it was last season, and still way low for a starting point guard.)
Ball is inscrutable -- limited in obvious ways, hard to project forward, but enticing because he's a visionary who cares about the right things.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:24 am    Post subject:

I liked seeing Lonzo get mad at the end of regulation after the gaffe and rise to the challenge.

I think he needs to play with more of an edge and last night we really saw that. Be aggressive young Jedi!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:41 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
epak wrote:
Hart played well. But you love to discredit Lonzo's defense whenever you get the chance.

Btw, Westbrook was 2-6 in the first. He and Lonzo both came out near the 3 min mark with the Lakers down 15. By the time Westbrook came back in the 2nd the lead was trimmed to 6. I don't think the 2nd unit got extended play due to shutting down Westbrook while he was on the bench.

To the bench's credit, they helped take the lead when WB got back.


So if Ball has a poor shooting line, it must be because the defense stopped him? That's the logical fallacy here. Ball didn't stop Westbrook. This season, Westbrook has proven himself capable of a bad shooting night against all sorts of defenders. People sometimes accuse me of just reading the box scores and not watching the game. Well, this is the reverse. Westbrook had a poor shooting night, therefore Ball must have shut him down. Um, no.

As for the first quarter, Westbrook had five assists. He basically blew past everyone, including Ball, and dropped the ball off to cutters or wide open three point shooters. He flat out killed us. If he had made some shots, like those two bunny layups he missed, we would have lost the game.

For some reason, Hart was more effective against Westbrook. In fact, Hart has some of the Larry Nance factor going for him. He does a lot of little, unglamorous things that add up. He made three or four little plays down the stretch last night that had an enormous impact on the game. There was one hustle rebound that was critical. He's got some thug in him, and I mean that in the best of ways. He's not afraid of unnecessary contact.


Yea I was pretty disappointed in Lonzos defense early on. Wasn’t keeping Westbrook in front and wasn’t as active as I thought he could be. With that said, I don’t agree that Hart was better, at least not by a noticeable margin. The third paragraph does seem like you’re going out of your way to discredit his D, whether you’re intending to or not. And that’s not to say I disagree about Hart doing those little things, but Zo does them more. He leads the team in steals per game and deflections per game(by almost a full deflection per), is 3rd behind Bron and Rondo in loose balls recovered and is 5th in boards(1st amongst guards). He does the little things more than anybody else on the roster(Hart is a relatively close second) and that’s what often goes unnoticed by fans. It’s strange to me that you notice Hart do that stuff and not Zo.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:43 am    Post subject:

He showed a lot of mental toughness last night. Very impressive OT.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:43 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Zach Lowe on Lonzo:

Quote:
3. Lonzo Ball, one dribble early

It's still hard to figure how Ball should function in a half-court offense. He won't be a lead ball handler alongside LeBron James. He's not a spot-up guy; he has hit just 32 percent on catch-and-shoot 3s, and he's too smart and hyperactive to stand still. He's like Lowry -- always buzzing around the court, vibrating with activity -- only without a jump shot.
In the half court, you see this a lot:

Yeah, that's Rudy Gobert. He's scary. But Ball pulls up early against ho-hum rim protectors. Ball hasn't pulled Gobert far enough toward himself or the basket to provide Ivica Zubac any advantage. Getting rid of the ball early can be good if doing so catches a key help defender leaning the wrong way. This isn't that.

Perhaps no NBA player is in more dire need of a midrange game. Only 15 percent of Ball's shots have come from between the rim and the 3-point arc, a share that ranks in the lowest possible percentile among guards, per Cleaning The Glass.

Ball could also be shying from contact. He's shooting 41.7 percent from the line on one attempt per game. That is unacceptable. Hassan Whiteside is embarrassed for him.

The Lakers are scoring just 0.82 points per possession when Ball drives, or passes to a teammate who shoots right way -- 220th among 256 players who have recorded at least 50 drives, per Second Spectrum. He averages only 7.5 drives per 100 possessions -- on par with Chandler Hutchison, Kevin Knox, Royce O'Neale, and other guys who weren't drafted to run NBA offenses. (That number leaps to 10.3 with LeBron off the floor -- exactly where it was last season, and still way low for a starting point guard.)
Ball is inscrutable -- limited in obvious ways, hard to project forward, but enticing because he's a visionary who cares about the right things.


Can't argue with that. And his last sentence is all I really care about. He's a frustrating player to watch though. His flaws happen to be the most obvious parts of the game - dribbling, finishing, shooting - which makes it easy for a lot of people to overlook his intangibles. I think he'll improve in those areas.

For me the big red flag is how much "competitiveness" does he have in his DNA. That's one thing I never want to question about a pro athlete, but there are just too many games where it seems like he doesn't care. Maybe it's a confidence thing and he can build it up. I think they should facilitate through him more. Last night when a play broke down they reset it to Lonzo quite a few times. This is something I play close attention to because he rarely gets the ball back when he gives it up. He may have some of Shaq's mentality where he plays better in other areas when the ball runs through him. He is unselfish to a fault, so he'll never complain about not touching the ball enough, but he's human and maybe it does affect his play.


Last edited by Ziggy on Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:44 am    Post subject:

that 3pt call was the best thing that happened to Lonzo.

he was a different player in OT
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:45 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
epak wrote:
Hart played well. But you love to discredit Lonzo's defense whenever you get the chance.

Btw, Westbrook was 2-6 in the first. He and Lonzo both came out near the 3 min mark with the Lakers down 15. By the time Westbrook came back in the 2nd the lead was trimmed to 6. I don't think the 2nd unit got extended play due to shutting down Westbrook while he was on the bench.

To the bench's credit, they helped take the lead when WB got back.


So if Ball has a poor shooting line, it must be because the defense stopped him? That's the logical fallacy here. Ball didn't stop Westbrook. This season, Westbrook has proven himself capable of a bad shooting night against all sorts of defenders. People sometimes accuse me of just reading the box scores and not watching the game. Well, this is the reverse. Westbrook had a poor shooting night, therefore Ball must have shut him down. Um, no.

As for the first quarter, Westbrook had five assists. He basically blew past everyone, including Ball, and dropped the ball off to cutters or wide open three point shooters. He flat out killed us. If he had made some shots, like those two bunny layups he missed, we would have lost the game.

For some reason, Hart was more effective against Westbrook. In fact, Hart has some of the Larry Nance factor going for him. He does a lot of little, unglamorous things that add up. He made three or four little plays down the stretch last night that had an enormous impact on the game. There was one hustle rebound that was critical. He's got some thug in him, and I mean that in the best of ways. He's not afraid of unnecessary contact.



The only person that can truly stop Russell Westbrook is Russell Westbrook. But as the season moves along, and if the guys Lonzo is matched up with shoot low percentages, would that be chalked up as coincidence? Or can we actually say Lonzo has good defense? We'll see at the end of the year.

And yes Hart had a great game. And since this is a Lonzo thread I wont even mention Hart's previous games that were not as delightful. He did a great job on Westbrook. I guess in Hart's case his defense was so "effective" that he almost stopped Westbrook with his defense?

Just for clarity, are you opposed to saying Lonzo's defense is effective? Or are you just against using the term "shut down?"
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:47 am    Post subject:

Jesusdelonla wrote:
that 3pt call was the best thing that happened to Lonzo.

he was a different player in OT


That deep 3 made me look bad . When he pulled up I was like "what?! NO!"

and then swishhh.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:00 am    Post subject:

https://twitter.com/aarondavis314/status/1086143147057524736?s=21

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:08 am    Post subject:

Lonzo gets props for the game. Idk the percentages of who played who in this game but with that aggressive mindset, you give the other team another thing to worry about. I don’t care if Westbrook is having a down year, we were not the reason that he got back into momentum.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:08 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Zach Lowe on Lonzo:

Quote:
3. Lonzo Ball, one dribble early

It's still hard to figure how Ball should function in a half-court offense. He won't be a lead ball handler alongside LeBron James. He's not a spot-up guy; he has hit just 32 percent on catch-and-shoot 3s, and he's too smart and hyperactive to stand still. He's like Lowry -- always buzzing around the court, vibrating with activity -- only without a jump shot.
In the half court, you see this a lot:

Yeah, that's Rudy Gobert. He's scary. But Ball pulls up early against ho-hum rim protectors. Ball hasn't pulled Gobert far enough toward himself or the basket to provide Ivica Zubac any advantage. Getting rid of the ball early can be good if doing so catches a key help defender leaning the wrong way. This isn't that.

Perhaps no NBA player is in more dire need of a midrange game. Only 15 percent of Ball's shots have come from between the rim and the 3-point arc, a share that ranks in the lowest possible percentile among guards, per Cleaning The Glass.

Ball could also be shying from contact. He's shooting 41.7 percent from the line on one attempt per game. That is unacceptable. Hassan Whiteside is embarrassed for him.

The Lakers are scoring just 0.82 points per possession when Ball drives, or passes to a teammate who shoots right way -- 220th among 256 players who have recorded at least 50 drives, per Second Spectrum. He averages only 7.5 drives per 100 possessions -- on par with Chandler Hutchison, Kevin Knox, Royce O'Neale, and other guys who weren't drafted to run NBA offenses. (That number leaps to 10.3 with LeBron off the floor -- exactly where it was last season, and still way low for a starting point guard.)
Ball is inscrutable -- limited in obvious ways, hard to project forward, but enticing because he's a visionary who cares about the right things.


Here's the LINK which also has the video:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25787638/10-things-like-including-draymond-green-kawhi-leonard-lonzo-ball-nba

The dreaded jump early pass.
2 ways to fix:
1. Dont do that.
2. Do it, and have Zubac lob it to Zo for wide open dunk.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:11 am    Post subject:

HellCrowe wrote:
Lonzo gets props for the game. Idk the percentages of who played who in this game but with that aggressive mindset, you give the other team another thing to worry about. I don’t care if Westbrook is having a down year, we were not the reason that he got back into momentum.



Not a fan of the hyperbole that goes around with "shut down." But along with your point, here's some numbers:

https://twitter.com/UniqueSportplus/status/1086159189716680705/photo/1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:11 am    Post subject:

BIG BALLER!!!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:16 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
HellCrowe wrote:
Lonzo gets props for the game. Idk the percentages of who played who in this game but with that aggressive mindset, you give the other team another thing to worry about. I don’t care if Westbrook is having a down year, we were not the reason that he got back into momentum.



Not a fan of the hyperbole that goes around with "shut down." But along with your point, here's some numbers:

https://twitter.com/UniqueSportplus/status/1086159189716680705/photo/1


Good to know he can bother an elite PG even when he doesn’t have his best defensive game.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:28 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
HellCrowe wrote:
Lonzo gets props for the game. Idk the percentages of who played who in this game but with that aggressive mindset, you give the other team another thing to worry about. I don’t care if Westbrook is having a down year, we were not the reason that he got back into momentum.



Not a fan of the hyperbole that goes around with "shut down." But along with your point, here's some numbers:

https://twitter.com/UniqueSportplus/status/1086159189716680705/photo/1


Right, today's NBA there is no way to "shut down" a player due to all the foul rules. But the way he plays defense as a 21 year old whose major weakness from scouts was his defense is great. I do think in a few years he has all-NBA defense potential b/c of the way he can impact the game defensively.

He's not an elite point of attack defender but as a team/hunting passing lanes/defensive rebounding defender, he is well rounded.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:50 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Lonzo and BI can be shutdown artists that you will need around LBJ + 2nd max FA. For those reasons, they can be very productive players to keep.


Ball did a lot of good things in this game. Shutting down Westbrook wasn't one of them. Westbrook did pretty much whatever he wanted against Ball. Thankfully, he missed several of his shots. Hart seemed more effective against Westbrook. In fact, this is a big part of the reason why Ball and the starting unit spent a big chunk of regulation on the bench. You can see this in the raw +/- stats. Ball was -12, while Hart was +23.

As for Ingram, what a waste. He had 11 assists in the game, but I don't remember anything that I would consider high leverage. I just don't know what to say about that guy.

Anyway, new RPM numbers are out. Ball has an ORPM of -0.87 and a DRPM of +0.53, for a net of -0.34. That's one of his higher scores of the year, if not the highest. He ranks 30th among PGs, between Beverly and Dinwiddie. Ingram has an ORPM of -2.69 and a DRPM of -0.04, for a net of -2.73. He ranks 76th among SFs, between Deandre Bembrey and Miles Bridges.

Hart was great on defense against Westbrook for sure
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:51 am    Post subject:

Lonzo Ball 18/10 vs The Thunder


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:07 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
Yea I was pretty disappointed in Lonzos defense early on. Wasn’t keeping Westbrook in front and wasn’t as active as I thought he could be. With that said, I don’t agree that Hart was better, at least not by a noticeable margin. The third paragraph does seem like you’re going out of your way to discredit his D, whether you’re intending to or not. And that’s not to say I disagree about Hart doing those little things, but Zo does them more. He leads the team in steals per game and deflections per game(by almost a full deflection per), is 3rd behind Bron and Rondo in loose balls recovered and is 5th in boards(1st amongst guards). He does the little things more than anybody else on the roster(Hart is a relatively close second) and that’s what often goes unnoticed by fans. It’s strange to me that you notice Hart do that stuff and not Zo.


You might be a bit over-sensitive, but I can't blame you in light of the periodic avalanches of negativity here when Ball has a bad game. But still, positive comments about Hart are not some sort of backhanded attack on Ball. If I have something negative to say about Ball, I'm not shy.

I made the comments about Hart because last night he made several critical hustle plays when the game was in the balance. The one I remember most was an offensive rebound between two defenders. As I said, Hart has a lot of Nance in his game. People are often puzzled by how highly Nance rates in the +/- stats. Like Nance, Hart makes a lot of the near-invisible plays that impact a game. Hart has a DRPM of +1.54, which is second in the league among SGs to Danny Green. As a group, we may be underrating Hart as a defensive player. And this has nothing to do with Ball's defense.
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