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epak
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 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Yea I was pretty disappointed in Lonzos defense early on. Wasn’t keeping Westbrook in front and wasn’t as active as I thought he could be. With that said, I don’t agree that Hart was better, at least not by a noticeable margin. The third paragraph does seem like you’re going out of your way to discredit his D, whether you’re intending to or not. And that’s not to say I disagree about Hart doing those little things, but Zo does them more. He leads the team in steals per game and deflections per game(by almost a full deflection per), is 3rd behind Bron and Rondo in loose balls recovered and is 5th in boards(1st amongst guards). He does the little things more than anybody else on the roster(Hart is a relatively close second) and that’s what often goes unnoticed by fans. It’s strange to me that you notice Hart do that stuff and not Zo. |
You might be a bit over-sensitive, but I can't blame you in light of the periodic avalanches of negativity here when Ball has a bad game. But still, positive comments about Hart are not some sort of backhanded attack on Ball. If I have something negative to say about Ball, I'm not shy.
I made the comments about Hart because last night he made several critical hustle plays when the game was in the balance. The one I remember most was an offensive rebound between two defenders. As I said, Hart has a lot of Nance in his game. People are often puzzled by how highly Nance rates in the +/- stats. Like Nance, Hart makes a lot of the near-invisible plays that impact a game. Hart has a DRPM of +1.54, which is second in the league among SGs to Danny Green. As a group, we may be underrating Hart as a defensive player. And this has nothing to do with Ball's defense. |
That's a great post! For the Hart thread.  |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | Just for clarity, are you opposed to saying Lonzo's defense is effective? Or are you just against using the term "shut down?" |
Shut down. Ball is not a shut down defender. In fact, I'm not sure that there are any shut down defenders at the point guard position in the current NBA. Maybe Marcus Smart, but I don't watch the Celtics often. The NBA's rule changes have essentially abolished shut down defense on the perimeter.
In the current NBA, point guard defense is more of a team project than ever. It's about switching and using big men to protect the rim. McGee, Chandler, and Zubac are just as much a part of the defense as whoever is technically guarding the opposing point guard.
Ball's strengths as a defender are his height, length, and versatility. He can disrupt passing lanes, block shots, and poke the ball loose. In the current NBA, that is worth a lot. But he's not a shut down defender. I'm not sure anyone is. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Yea I was pretty disappointed in Lonzos defense early on. Wasn’t keeping Westbrook in front and wasn’t as active as I thought he could be. With that said, I don’t agree that Hart was better, at least not by a noticeable margin. The third paragraph does seem like you’re going out of your way to discredit his D, whether you’re intending to or not. And that’s not to say I disagree about Hart doing those little things, but Zo does them more. He leads the team in steals per game and deflections per game(by almost a full deflection per), is 3rd behind Bron and Rondo in loose balls recovered and is 5th in boards(1st amongst guards). He does the little things more than anybody else on the roster(Hart is a relatively close second) and that’s what often goes unnoticed by fans. It’s strange to me that you notice Hart do that stuff and not Zo. |
You might be a bit over-sensitive, but I can't blame you in light of the periodic avalanches of negativity here when Ball has a bad game. But still, positive comments about Hart are not some sort of backhanded attack on Ball. If I have something negative to say about Ball, I'm not shy.
I made the comments about Hart because last night he made several critical hustle plays when the game was in the balance. The one I remember most was an offensive rebound between two defenders. As I said, Hart has a lot of Nance in his game. People are often puzzled by how highly Nance rates in the +/- stats. Like Nance, Hart makes a lot of the near-invisible plays that impact a game. Hart has a DRPM of +1.54, which is second in the league among SGs to Danny Green. As a group, we may be underrating Hart as a defensive player. And this has nothing to do with Ball's defense. |
Maybe. You are posting this in the Ball thread though so I would say it’s fair to assume you’re comparing the two with statements like that. Hart certainly made several critical plays last night. I am the last to deny those things which is why I’ve always been a big fan of Lonzo even through his shooting struggles. I’m happy DRPM shoes him to be a great defender, we may be underrating him but I don’t trust DRPM as much as you. In this case, I hope you’re right. |
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epak
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Just for clarity, are you opposed to saying Lonzo's defense is effective? Or are you just against using the term "shut down?" |
Shut down. Ball is not a shut down defender. In fact, I'm not sure that there are any shut down defenders at the point guard position in the current NBA. Maybe Marcus Smart, but I don't watch the Celtics often. The NBA's rule changes have essentially abolished shut down defense on the perimeter.
In the current NBA, point guard defense is more of a team project than ever. It's about switching and using big men to protect the rim. McGee, Chandler, and Zubac are just as much a part of the defense as whoever is technically guarding the opposing point guard.
Ball's strengths as a defender are his height, length, and versatility. He can disrupt passing lanes, block shots, and poke the ball loose. In the current NBA, that is worth a lot. But he's not a shut down defender. I'm not sure anyone is. |
Totally fair.
And I agree with the idea that Lonzo is worth a lot to our defense. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Maybe. You are posting this in the Ball thread though so I would say it’s fair to assume you’re comparing the two with statements like that. |
Sure. My comment was that, for some reason, Hart seemed to be more effective against Westbrook last night. I'd have to study the video to give you a deeper analysis than that. I leave that kind of work to people like GT, who are actually proficient at it. My general impression was that Hart did a better job of staying in front of Westbrook. Westbrook seemed to be able to get past Ball when he wanted to. This was most noticeable in the first quarter, of course, but it was still true late in the game. |
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Mr.81
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Lonzo and BI can be shutdown artists that you will need around LBJ + 2nd max FA. For those reasons, they can be very productive players to keep. |
Ball did a lot of good things in this game. Shutting down Westbrook wasn't one of them. Westbrook did pretty much whatever he wanted against Ball. Thankfully, he missed several of his shots. Hart seemed more effective against Westbrook. In fact, this is a big part of the reason why Ball and the starting unit spent a big chunk of regulation on the bench. You can see this in the raw +/- stats. Ball was -12, while Hart was +23.
As for Ingram, what a waste. He had 11 assists in the game, but I don't remember anything that I would consider high leverage. I just don't know what to say about that guy.
Anyway, new RPM numbers are out. Ball has an ORPM of -0.87 and a DRPM of +0.53, for a net of -0.34. That's one of his higher scores of the year, if not the highest. He ranks 30th among PGs, between Beverly and Dinwiddie. Ingram has an ORPM of -2.69 and a DRPM of -0.04, for a net of -2.73. He ranks 76th among SFs, between Deandre Bembrey and Miles Bridges. |
RPM is pretty useless to look at when comparing players, Delovedova has a higher ORPM than Lonzo, Kawhi and Ingram basically have the same DRPM. Honestly just going through the list should be enough for you go not put much if any emphasis on that stat. Don't cherry pick a stat and just try and put one player over the other, It's like saying Ingram is 39 in PER among SF and Lonzo is 60th among PG. |
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AFireInside619
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Keep this up and not sure if there’s anyone (not named Durant, Harden, Curry, Davis) that we would trade Ball for. Like GT said during Summer League, “Lonzo is the one.”
And what about that Jordan dunk switch to the lefty layup he did against OKC last night? Has anyone done that since Jordan vs the Lakers? I’m sure Kobe and Vince Carter has. Regardless, it’s a very short list. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | Keep this up and not sure if there’s anyone (not named Durant, Harden, Curry, Davis) that we would trade Ball for. Like GT said during Summer League, “Lonzo is the one.”
And what about that Jordan dunk switch to the lefty layup he did against OKC last night? Has anyone done that since Jordan vs the Lakers? I’m sure Kobe and Vince Carter has. Regardless, it’s a very short list. |
The kid is starting to realize he’s a really good athlete even by NBA standards. And he’s getting confidence in his shot. I expected to see this Zo earlier in the year but clearly underestimated the impact of surgery and a child. This time next year, he may be pushing for an all star game IMO. |
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Mr.81
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | AFireInside619 wrote: | Keep this up and not sure if there’s anyone (not named Durant, Harden, Curry, Davis) that we would trade Ball for. Like GT said during Summer League, “Lonzo is the one.”
And what about that Jordan dunk switch to the lefty layup he did against OKC last night? Has anyone done that since Jordan vs the Lakers? I’m sure Kobe and Vince Carter has. Regardless, it’s a very short list. |
The kid is starting to realize he’s a really good athlete even by NBA standards. And he’s getting confidence in his shot. I expected to see this Zo earlier in the year but clearly underestimated the impact of surgery and a child. This time next year, he may be pushing for an all star game IMO. |
Has me excited to see what his game will look like with a full summer to train, hopefully he stays just as aggressive when Lebron comes back. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Mr.81 wrote: | | RPM is pretty useless to look at when comparing players, Delovedova has a higher ORPM than Lonzo, Kawhi and Ingram basically have the same DRPM. Honestly just going through the list should be enough for you go not put much if any emphasis on that stat. Don't cherry pick a stat and just try and put one player over the other, It's like saying Ingram is 39 in PER among SF and Lonzo is 60th among PG. |
That's a topic that has been exhausted elsewhere. If you don't believe in metrics because they don't match your subjective opinions, that's cool. |
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Mr.81
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Mr.81 wrote: | | RPM is pretty useless to look at when comparing players, Delovedova has a higher ORPM than Lonzo, Kawhi and Ingram basically have the same DRPM. Honestly just going through the list should be enough for you go not put much if any emphasis on that stat. Don't cherry pick a stat and just try and put one player over the other, It's like saying Ingram is 39 in PER among SF and Lonzo is 60th among PG. |
That's a topic that has been exhausted elsewhere. If you don't believe in metrics because they don't match your subjective opinions, that's cool. |
If you don't believe in PER because it doesn't match your subjective opinion, that's cool. |
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CamReddish
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Mr.81 wrote: | | RPM is pretty useless to look at when comparing players, Delovedova has a higher ORPM than Lonzo, Kawhi and Ingram basically have the same DRPM. Honestly just going through the list should be enough for you go not put much if any emphasis on that stat. Don't cherry pick a stat and just try and put one player over the other, It's like saying Ingram is 39 in PER among SF and Lonzo is 60th among PG. |
That's a topic that has been exhausted elsewhere. If you don't believe in metrics because they don't match your subjective opinions, that's cool. |
Some people(You) cherry pick metrics to match your opinions and then you talk down or insult people that argue it with different metrics.
Clown show.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Mr.81 wrote: | | RPM is pretty useless to look at when comparing players, Delovedova has a higher ORPM than Lonzo, Kawhi and Ingram basically have the same DRPM. Honestly just going through the list should be enough for you go not put much if any emphasis on that stat. Don't cherry pick a stat and just try and put one player over the other, It's like saying Ingram is 39 in PER among SF and Lonzo is 60th among PG. |
That's a topic that has been exhausted elsewhere. If you don't believe in metrics because they don't match your subjective opinions, that's cool. |
So nobody who disagrees with a metric is objective? Doesn’t sound like you’re looking at the metric objectively with statements like that. |
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saetarubia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | HellCrowe wrote: | | Lonzo gets props for the game. Idk the percentages of who played who in this game but with that aggressive mindset, you give the other team another thing to worry about. I don’t care if Westbrook is having a down year, we were not the reason that he got back into momentum. |
Not a fan of the hyperbole that goes around with "shut down." But along with your point, here's some numbers:
https://twitter.com/UniqueSportplus/status/1086159189716680705/photo/1 |
Westbrook is 5-25 against ZO over two games. That's 20%. And he's shooting 41.5% this season so even considering WB's shooting struggles, ZO kept him way below his average.
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saetarubia
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:50 am Post subject: |
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We have won 4 of our last 6 and ZO has made an impact in all of them.
@Mavs - 21/5/7(Pts, Assists, Rebs)
vs Det - 5/11/5
vs Cavs - 19/6/8
@OKC - 18/10/6
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Jesusdelonla wrote: | that 3pt call was the best thing that happened to Lonzo.
he was a different player in OT |
no he wasnt. he was the same aggressive he was all game long. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| saetarubia wrote: | We have won 4 of our last 6 and ZO has made an impact in all of them.
@Mavs - 21/5/7(Pts, Assists, Rebs)
vs Det - 5/11/5
vs Cavs - 19/6/8
@OKC - 18/10/6 |
He's been the most effective and consistent of the young trio (skinniest kid in fat camp?) since LBJ's absence. I hope he gets more ball handling duties when he returns.
I dare say he's even running the pick and roll better. |
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JerryWest_44
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Undecided on my favorite ZO sequence in OT:
1) the deeep step back 3
2) the strong drive to the cup against Aquaman where he switches the ball from his right to left hand
3) or the subtle pocket pass to Zu |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryWest_44 wrote: | Undecided on my favorite ZO sequence in OT:
1) the deeep step back 3
2) the strong drive to the cup against Aquaman where he switches the ball from his right to left hand
3) or the subtle pocket pass to Zu |
This one: https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1086106664858570752
That's Curry-esque. |
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LKA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryWest_44 wrote: | Undecided on my favorite ZO sequence in OT:
1) the deeep step back 3
2) the strong drive to the cup against Aquaman where he switches the ball from his right to left hand
3) or the subtle pocket pass to Zu |
It’s the left handed finish for me |
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LakerLogic
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| He needs the ball in his hands. He's starting to assert himself. Luke can't keep him out for 12 minutes straight. |
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Treble Clef
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | HellCrowe wrote: | | Lonzo gets props for the game. Idk the percentages of who played who in this game but with that aggressive mindset, you give the other team another thing to worry about. I don’t care if Westbrook is having a down year, we were not the reason that he got back into momentum. |
Not a fan of the hyperbole that goes around with "shut down." But along with your point, here's some numbers:
https://twitter.com/UniqueSportplus/status/1086159189716680705/photo/1 |
Yeah I think there has been a lot of effort in collecting stats that suggest Lonzo is a shutdown defender but I think too much of this is a team stat, especially with all of the switching. For the point guard to be held in check, it takes the whole team helping each other, switching, avoiding turnovers that will lead to easy baskets, and you also just need some good fortune in the player missing the good shots they do get. The Lakers have had a lot of games where the offense was awful and I don't think the other team caused it with defense and the opposite is true as well.
I think Lonzo has done fine defensively, certainly better than expected since it was rumored to be his weakness. I can't say that I notice a big difference when he is in and out of the game, however, like when Dwight Howard would sub out and Sacre or whoever would allow a layup line. As others have said, its hard for a point guard to be that guy with today's rules.
Lonzo doesn't allow guys to make lazy passes in his presence but I don't think opposing point guards dread playing him or anything. |
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noahp45
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hydrohead
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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so russ is 10-50 in fg against us in the past two games.
Noiiice! |
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hydrohead
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | JerryWest_44 wrote: | Undecided on my favorite ZO sequence in OT:
1) the deeep step back 3
2) the strong drive to the cup against Aquaman where he switches the ball from his right to left hand
3) or the subtle pocket pass to Zu |
This one: https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1086106664858570752
That's Curry-esque. |
agreed. should have dropped the Sam Cassell dance after he drained that three |
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