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kikanga
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 Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:30 am Post subject: |
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I expect a good game from Ball.
Jamal Murray is a great matchup for him. Murray is shorter, less athletic, and plays a style of ball that is easy for Lonzo to guard.
I mean anything can happen, but I'm confident in Ball tonight. Playing him in draft kings.
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OCWA
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | You can teach shooting to a young player, and in most cases that player will improve over his career. But you CAN NOT change a young man’s mental make up. Lonzo is SOFT with capital S, that’s in his DNA, that’s not something he will change over time. I think having a dominant figure dad growing up forcing stuff onto him had something to do with it. |
I think this is exactly why Kyle Kuzma thinks he's misunderstood, and why multiple coaches and trainers RAVE about his competitiveness.
Being competitive doesn't have to be a facial expression or an extraverted sign. |
There was a sequence in summer league where he was forced into a bad shot and then had a shot spiked out of bounds and you could see him get angry and he essentially took the game over after that. He isn't able to physically take over an NBA game yet, but the competiveness is there.
There have been some small flashes where he has dominated sequences and those will grow as he gets accustomed to the speed of the game. |
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M2K
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Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 2432
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| LakersNewEra wrote: | Dayum this whole thing is Lonzos DLO snapchat moment. Players dont take that stuff lightly. Ultimately DLo ended up traded because of it. Got labeled a non leader. Im guessing this kinda stuff is taken a lot more seriously among players than most people realize.
#walkoffgate |
DLO wanted the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter... he wanted to take the money shot at the end of games... his teammates knew it... the opposing team knew it... and everyone at the game knew it. He wanted to be the one to put the dagger into the other team at the end of the game.
Ball can't even get on the floor in the 4th quarter.
The jury is still out on Ball... and even the kitty move he made during the skirmish can become a learning, maturing moment as a teammate. We'll see how he responds.
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M2K
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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I really, really want Ball to succeed for the sake of the Lakers.
My concern is his poor scoring ability and emotional investment in the game and his teammates.
Having said that... I see absolutely no indication that he is going to be a bust. He is an intelligent, skilled player with great passing instincts.
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A three headed monster... Jeannie, Pelinka, and Ham... another terrible season. |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | One thing contributing to his low FTs attempts, poor FT shooting %. Drummond had a similar problem. When you know you can't hit FTs, it changes the way you play offense. He is not seeking contact. |
There's also the fact that he defaults to the early open on PnR. Even when he has open layups, he passes to Lopez.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| M2K wrote: | | LakersNewEra wrote: | Dayum this whole thing is Lonzos DLO snapchat moment. Players dont take that stuff lightly. Ultimately DLo ended up traded because of it. Got labeled a non leader. Im guessing this kinda stuff is taken a lot more seriously among players than most people realize.
#walkoffgate |
DLO wanted the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter... he wanted to take the money shot at the end of games... his teammates knew it... the opposing team knew it... and everyone at the game knew it. He wanted to be the one to put the dagger into the other team at the end of the game.
Ball can't even get on the floor in the 4th quarter.
The jury is still out on Ball... and even the kitty move he made during the skirmish can become a learning, maturing moment as a teammate. We'll see how he responds. |
Granted it was Phoenix, but he took over that 4th Q. Drove into contact, layups.
If we compared rookie years, Zo in terms of attacking the paint, is like DAR in March/April of his rookie year.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| M2K wrote: | I really, really want Ball to succeed for the sake of the Lakers.
My concern is his poor scoring ability and emotional investment in the game and his teammates.
Having said that... I see absolutely no indication that he is going to be a bust. He is an intelligent, skilled player with great passing instincts. |
I do not think being a "bust" is the question, if "bust" is defined as it was earlier in this thread....as a player that cannot do anything effective in the NBA. Ball clearly has skills/gifts that allow him to perform particular elements of the game at a high level.
I am not very concerned about the shooting %'s because there are too many examples of young players struggling early on with their shooting.
I think the shooting struggles actually are serving as cover for far more concerning elements of his game. His shooting mechanics are simply going to be a problem at the NBA level....he is literally restricted to 1/2 or 2/3 of the court in getting a clean release with soft defense. It is like he is playing with one hand tied behind his back. Once he begins to make a few shots, the defense will get tighter and simply force him to the right side of the court. I have seen comments where people say they are not worried about him missing his shots because "he is getting open shots", which is mostly happening because the defense is allowing him those shots because he is not making them.
Next his handle is mediocre for a perimeter player and fairly poor for a primary ball handler. No he is not getting the ball snatched from him often, but it is limiting what he attempts to do on the court, especially within traffic.
He has very poor touch around the rim....floaters, layups, finger rolls....there is just no touch, and often appears he is simply throwing the ball towards the target. He looks fearful in the mid range....often passing it off to someone with a worse shot.
Finally my biggest concern with Ball is his overall lack of agility. He plays very stiff. Sure he is athletic in that he can run and jump at the level of a professional athlete....but when he gets in the air either passing or trying to finish...his body is very rigid which makes obtaining a good angle very difficult. I think this is why he shows the ball so early and often gets his shots blocked.
Shot Mechanics - fixable, but difficult
Ball Handling - can improve to a certain level
Touch - Can't really think of many players with poor touch that developed above average touch
Agility - think he will have to learn to work around, because I do not see significant improvement in that area.
To me, it's not about him being a bust....he has ability, and the Lakers will move heaven and earth to prevent him from totally failing. It is more about what he can become as an NBA player. Personally, I see his likely outcome being a middle of the pack PG and an average to above average NBA starter. That is not a terrible outcome, but I doubt it's the outcome you hope for a #2 pick in a deep draft. |
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Christopher Walken
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | 32 wrote: | | He's had some poor games recently but we also saw him get a triple double one week ago. Youngest player in nba history. This tells me he has big upside. |
He's definitely not the youngest player in NBA history. But considering the primary thing he needs to learn is to shoot, and not so much with defense, rebounding, making halfcourt reads, PnR timing, etc...
He's not as much of a project as once expected by me, for sure. |
He is the youngest player in NBA history with a triple double. |
And if they get rid of one and done he likely won’t be. |
 Relevance? |
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Christopher Walken
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | PGs Taken in the Top 10, 2017 NBA Draft
RPM
AVERAGE PLAYER........0.00
1. Frank Ntilikina........-0.25
2. Lonzo Ball..............-2.55
3) Dennis Smith, Jr.....-2.94
4) Markelle Fultz.........-3.14
5) De'Aaron Fox..........-5.00
BPM
AVERAGE PLAYER........0.0
1. Lonzo Ball..............-0.8
2. Frank Ntilikina........-1.3
3. Dennis Smith, Jr......-3.2
4. De'Aaron Fox..........-4.5
5. Markelle Fultz.........-9.4
TS%
AVERAGE PLAYER............55.3
1. Dennis Smith, Jr..........46.8
2. De'Aaron Fox..............45.4
3. Frank Ntilikina.............41.1
4. Markelle Fultz..............37.2
5. Lonzo Ball...................36.4
AST%
1. De'Aaron Fox...............30.7
2. Lonzo Ball...................29.0
3. Dennis Smith, Jr...........28.2
4. Frank Ntilikina..............27.2
5. Markelle Fultz...............12.7
TO%
1. De'Aaron Fox................14.6
2. Markelle Fultz...............15.7
3. Lonzo Ball....................18.2
4. Dennis Smith, Jr............18.8
5. Frank Ntilikina...............24.7
Assist-to-Turnover Ratio
1. Lonzo Ball.....................2.53
2. De'Aaron Fox.................2.27
3. Frank Ntilikina...............2.04
4. Dennis Smith, Jr.............1.26
5. Markelle Fultz................1.17
REB%
1. Lonzo Ball.....................10.4
2. Dennis Smith, Jr...............8.0
3. De'Aaron Fox...................6.3
4. Markelle Fultz..................6.2
5. Frank Ntilikina.................5.6
STL%
1. Frank Ntilikina.................4.7 
2. Lonzo Ball.......................2.2
3. Dennis Smith, Jr...............1.6
4. De'Aaron Fox...................1.4
5. Markelle Fultz..................1.2
BLK%
1. Lonzo Ball.......................2.1
2. Markelle Fultz..................1.1
3. Dennis Smith, Jr...............1.1
4. De'Aaron Fox...................0.5
5. Frank Ntilikina.................0.4 |
Phil was bad in signings, trades, and interpersonal team relations but Porzingis and nkillikina tell me phil and FO were good at drafting. |
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CHRISTYLE70
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Joined: 26 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Lonzo is actually doing the other rookies a favor with all the spotlight on him because most of the guards are barely shooting 40% Fox just hit 40% even Dennis Smith JR who is super hyped out here in Dallas where I live. Ive watched most of DeAaron Fox's games this season, hes not a better player than Lonzo out of all of the drafted guards this season theres only one who looks ready to play and even at that hes shooting 39% (Dennis Smith JR). Look at Russell Westbrook, Gary Payton and Russell Westbrooks stats from their first 15 games none of them shot the ball well at all, Rookies typically dont. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| K2 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | rogers49 wrote: | | El Seano wrote: | | How exactly can a player be top 10 in the league in assists and a bust at the same time? |
Kendall Marshall rings a bell? |
Marshall was 13th pick who avg 3 ast as a rookie. Not even close to being the same situation. |
Kendall Marshall (all-time assist leader at UNC) did average 3 assists over 14 minutes per game in his rookie season. He did improve to average 8.8 assists over 29minutes per game in his second season. |
yeah he was 2nd in the NBA in assists during his time with us and actually shot 40% from three.
If D'Antoni could do that with Marshall..... 
Then again he got stolen from us by Milwaukee (the way Nwaba did by Chicago) and despite them not utilizing him properly he was shooting 45% from the field and 40% from three again while coming off the bench and seemed to be really figuring it out before his injury. With which Milwaukee just cut him afterwards. Classy.
Anyway, the point is, a lot of people thought Kendall's shot was broken and he'd never amount to anything, but what it showed was that in the right system he could flourish. System matters a lot more than people think. With us and in our system Marshall looked like the pick he was with a solid enough upside to be at least a good rotational player or bench point guard to set the table for guys. Anywhere else he either looked misused or not used at all and people could go 'bust' but as he showed with us the talent was always there if utilized properly and maximized in the right system.
The system we currently run is not one that appeals to Lonzo's strengths, nor does it require him to take advantage of the things offensively he's good at in the comfortable ways he was able to do them elsewhere but here and that stuff does matter too.
However at this point his shooting and not pressuring the defense enough to get fouled a lot is the only real knocks I have. He's ahead of the curve on defense, rebounding and assists.
I personally think if we had a coach that actually understood what Lonzo is and isn't, suddenly he'd go on an offensive route at least better than people think he can now and they'd go "where's this coming from!?" without realizing how much the other system handicapped what he was good at offensively and what he could do while his shot was coming along.
But Luke is not that guy.
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LakersNewEra
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Joined: 16 Apr 2014
Posts: 1526
Location: Vancouver BC
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | M2K wrote: | I really, really want Ball to succeed for the sake of the Lakers.
My concern is his poor scoring ability and emotional investment in the game and his teammates.
Having said that... I see absolutely no indication that he is going to be a bust. He is an intelligent, skilled player with great passing instincts. |
I do not think being a "bust" is the question, if "bust" is defined as it was earlier in this thread....as a player that cannot do anything effective in the NBA. Ball clearly has skills/gifts that allow him to perform particular elements of the game at a high level.
I am not very concerned about the shooting %'s because there are too many examples of young players struggling early on with their shooting.
I think the shooting struggles actually are serving as cover for far more concerning elements of his game. His shooting mechanics are simply going to be a problem at the NBA level....he is literally restricted to 1/2 or 2/3 of the court in getting a clean release with soft defense. It is like he is playing with one hand tied behind his back. Once he begins to make a few shots, the defense will get tighter and simply force him to the right side of the court. I have seen comments where people say they are not worried about him missing his shots because "he is getting open shots", which is mostly happening because the defense is allowing him those shots because he is not making them.
Next his handle is mediocre for a perimeter player and fairly poor for a primary ball handler. No he is not getting the ball snatched from him often, but it is limiting what he attempts to do on the court, especially within traffic.
He has very poor touch around the rim....floaters, layups, finger rolls....there is just no touch, and often appears he is simply throwing the ball towards the target. He looks fearful in the mid range....often passing it off to someone with a worse shot.
Finally my biggest concern with Ball is his overall lack of agility. He plays very stiff. Sure he is athletic in that he can run and jump at the level of a professional athlete....but when he gets in the air either passing or trying to finish...his body is very rigid which makes obtaining a good angle very difficult. I think this is why he shows the ball so early and often gets his shots blocked.
Shot Mechanics - fixable, but difficult
Ball Handling - can improve to a certain level
Touch - Can't really think of many players with poor touch that developed above average touch
Agility - think he will have to learn to work around, because I do not see significant improvement in that area.
To me, it's not about him being a bust....he has ability, and the Lakers will move heaven and earth to prevent him from totally failing. It is more about what he can become as an NBA player. Personally, I see his likely outcome being a middle of the pack PG and an average to above average NBA starter. That is not a terrible outcome, but I doubt it's the outcome you hope for a #2 pick in a deep draft. |
Best post yet. However I am a little bit more optimistic about his chances to fix his shot and improve his agility but I hear what youre saying.
There is an Adam Morrison feel to Ball as a player that was able to get away with a lot of things on college level but cant cut it in pros. He did however have 2 amazing games thus far, hes shown us that there is something there so I doubt he ends up as Morrison, as someone that just cant play in the NBA.
Your analysis is spot on as is your projection IMO. Ball could be a decent starter in the NBA but will take 3 or 4 years for that. |
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MJST
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Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26389
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | M2K wrote: | | LakersNewEra wrote: | Dayum this whole thing is Lonzos DLO snapchat moment. Players dont take that stuff lightly. Ultimately DLo ended up traded because of it. Got labeled a non leader. Im guessing this kinda stuff is taken a lot more seriously among players than most people realize.
#walkoffgate |
DLO wanted the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter... he wanted to take the money shot at the end of games... his teammates knew it... the opposing team knew it... and everyone at the game knew it. He wanted to be the one to put the dagger into the other team at the end of the game.
Ball can't even get on the floor in the 4th quarter.
The jury is still out on Ball... and even the kitty move he made during the skirmish can become a learning, maturing moment as a teammate. We'll see how he responds. |
Granted it was Phoenix, but he took over that 4th Q. Drove into contact, layups.
If we compared rookie years, Zo in terms of attacking the paint, is like DAR in March/April of his rookie year. |
In that one game he was and that was with Bledsoe guarding him.
Where was it when the 5'8 Ullis was guarding him? Cause if it was the same Ball from that night I am very much doubting that he'd feel the need to use a fadeaway in the post at 6'7 against a 5'8 guard defending him.
Time will tell whether that Phoenix game was something we can consider around the mean of Lonso, or whether it was just an outlier and the guy he's been for most of the season is who he is.
I personally think the Suns game was a perfect storm and not something we should come to expect from Lonzo very often. It doesn't seem like it's his mentality nor was it his "I can play in the league" moment.
I think his mentality is who he's always shown it was and who it's always been. The guy who has an open layup but tries to give it to Lopez anyway.
I think that's who Lonzo is and always has been.
If we want to use the D'lo comparison, he had that same mentality to put the dagger in another team from high school, through college, through his rookie season.
Lonzo's mentality has always been the opposite, he's had flashes of it, but it was never really who he was, in his mind his teammate getting an open shot is better than him getting a wide open shot. That's the difference imo.
And I don't know if he's gonna change that. He'll be aggressive cause the coach asks him to, not because he's comfortable with it. I think the problem is he isn't comfortable with it, and he's only doing it because it's asked of him, and that's not the right way for it to happen imo.
Besides it seems he thinks 'aggression' is just shooting more, when it's really more about taking it to the basket on smaller guards and forcing them to have to foul you, or causing the defense to collapse so that you can kick it to a teammate or dish it to the perimeter.
That's what I want to see from Lonzo.
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Lonzo-Lite
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Joined: 17 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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He's thinking too much.
Saw his 1st shot? He doesn't catch and shoot; instead he catches, pauses to think, then shoots, and his shots always bricks long, he's made no adjustment in these few weeks.
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AllorNothing
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Joined: 08 Oct 2001
Posts: 18448
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Lonzo is getting on my nerve. Never seen a big baller be such a menta midget. Hope he snaps out of his scoreless funk. |
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george w kush
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Joined: 05 Jun 2009
Posts: 1171
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Get this scrub out of the game, he isn’t doing anything. Would rather see Ennis take his minutes. |
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32
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Posts: 73071
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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He's doing better. haha
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Last edited by 32 on Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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george w kush
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Joined: 05 Jun 2009
Posts: 1171
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Send him to the G league for a few months, then bring him back to play off the bench. That might take some pressure off him. Let him earn the starting spot if he wants it. |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | That's what I want to see from Lonzo.
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He's not a veteran. Pretty clear that his confidence in just one area is affected. I wanted him to attack Ulis at will too, but he only did it 6 minutes.
We know he's capable. We're not even 20 games into the season.
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prezkuz
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Better bounce back game for Lonzo. He still can't shoot. But, he's engaged in the game and with his teammates. |
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GODBE
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Lonzo is a transition god. |
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ThreePointBomber
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Location: Inland Empire
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| george w kush wrote: | | Get this scrub out of the game, he isn’t doing anything. Would rather see Ennis take his minutes. |
Do you guys get a kick out of our team doing bad?
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Batguano
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Dude is on pace to notch a triple-double and Lakers are up 20 at the half and fools are still complaining about Ball.  |
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trashcan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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lonzo would be a gleague god from what ive seen caruso do in it. i think lin was averaging a 25pt triple double in his gleague stint too
that wont help him at all |
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epak
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | Dude is on pace to notch a triple-double and Lakers are up 20 at the half and fools are still complaining about Ball. |
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