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Beir32
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


I'd wager most people who were ranking prospects going into this draft didn't have Kuzma anywhere near the player that he is currently. My point is that prospect/player ranking is a fun process that gets clicks and generates discussion but is ultimately inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

I think that there are players each year that are far more NBA ready than others (Tatum) and they make the others (Ingram and Ball, for example) look like bad picks after 20 games by comparison. Kuzma is another example of someone who looks more NBA ready than most.

My point is that while other players from a particular draft get out to faster starts than most do, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will be better players in the long run.

I guess I just don't put too much stock in ranking players after 20 games and even less in ranking them before a draft.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject:

Beir32 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


I'd wager most people who were ranking prospects going into this draft didn't have Kuzma anywhere near the player that he is currently. My point is that prospect/player ranking is a fun process that gets clicks and generates discussion but is ultimately inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

I think that there are players each year that are far more NBA ready than others (Tatum) and they make the others (Ingram and Ball, for example) look like bad picks after 20 games by comparison. Kuzma is another example of someone who looks more NBA ready than most.

My point is that while other players from a particular draft get out to faster starts than most do, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will be better players in the long run.

I guess I just don't put too much stock in ranking players after 20 games and even less in ranking them before a draft.


yeah, I am really not clear on what your trying to say....Vecenie has been high on Ball all along....and clearly remains confident in him. He is a regular guest on multiple Laker podcasts, and has always spoke highly of Ball. One thing that clearly should cease is if a person does not consider Ball the best or 2nd best prospect in the draft....somehow they are labeled a "hater".

If you listened to the podcast, you would have heard Vecenie say time and time again that everything is fine....just waiting on a larger sample to reach any type of conclusion. Not sure if your familiar with Vecenie and/or Zwicker, but I consider them two of the very best draft talent evaluators.

If you do not believe in ranking players before the draft.....I have no clue how you would advise teams to participate in the NBA Draft.
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Beir32
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Beir32 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


I'd wager most people who were ranking prospects going into this draft didn't have Kuzma anywhere near the player that he is currently. My point is that prospect/player ranking is a fun process that gets clicks and generates discussion but is ultimately inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

I think that there are players each year that are far more NBA ready than others (Tatum) and they make the others (Ingram and Ball, for example) look like bad picks after 20 games by comparison. Kuzma is another example of someone who looks more NBA ready than most.

My point is that while other players from a particular draft get out to faster starts than most do, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will be better players in the long run.

I guess I just don't put too much stock in ranking players after 20 games and even less in ranking them before a draft.


yeah, I am really not clear on what your trying to say....Vecenie has been high on Ball all along....and clearly remains confident in him. He is a regular guest on multiple Laker podcasts, and has always spoke highly of Ball. One thing that clearly should cease is if a person does not consider Ball the best or 2nd best prospect in the draft....somehow they are labeled a "hater".

If you listened to the podcast, you would have heard Vecenie say time and time again that everything is fine....just waiting on a larger sample to reach any type of conclusion. Not sure if your familiar with Vecenie and/or Zwicker, but I consider them two of the very best draft talent evaluators.

If you do not believe in ranking players before the draft.....I have no clue how you would advise teams to participate in the NBA Draft.


I didn't say I have a problem with teams ranking players before the draft. I also didn't say I had a problem with members of the media ranking players before the draft. I'm saying that when it is all said and done, even the most educated executives/former players/media experts inside the game have a rough estimate of how these players are going to turn out and that's about it. It's the nature of the beast.

Btw my opinion on the subject has nothing to do with Ball or any perceived slight against him. I'm hoping he turns into a stud and hopefully sooner than later. I just figured that in a thread about a guy that generates strong opinions from one extreme to the other, it's good to remember that ultimately none of us have a clue about what these players are gonna turn into…and that's one of the things that makes the NBA so fun!

I'll have to check out that podcast when I get a chance. I enjoy Vecenie's stuff.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.


I rarely have time to listen to a podcast, so I can't comment on what they were saying. In general, I'm not concerned with how pundits ranked prospects, especially after the fact. I've never seen any pundit who was consistently correct about draft prospects. In fact, I've never seen a pundit who I thought would outperform the better GMs in the league. Heck, if you have followed the pre-draft assessments by some of the more knowledgeable posters on this board, you've seen a lot of airballs.

At this point, I am trying to assess three things about Ball. First, what type of player will he be if and when he reaches his ceiling? Second, is he going to be the type of player we can build around? Third, how long will it be before we know whether he is going to reach his ceiling?

On the third question. it appears to me that we're looking at a 2-3 year development process, which is acceptable in the era of one and dones. The first two questions are more troublesome, at least to me. The more knowledgeable folks seem to envision him as some sort of hybrid of Jason Kidd and Manu Ginobili: a point guard who rebounds and plays defense, but operates mostly off the ball on offense. I can see how that would be valuable, but I don't see how you build a championship team around a player like that.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


That's an outdated scouting report.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


That's an outdated scouting report.


No. Outdated means at some point it was valid.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


That's an outdated scouting report.


No. Outdated means at some point it was valid.


Nah he was god awful during summer league.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


That's an outdated scouting report.


No. Outdated means at some point it was valid.

Zwicker's pre-draft breakdown of Zo's issues finishing at the rim has proven to be right on point.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


That's an outdated scouting report.


not sure why you claim this....but unless I misunderstand your claim, you are incorrect. I have read/listened to both Vecenie and Zwicker in recent weeks, and their comments in this area are consistent and correct.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:42 pm    Post subject:

42% free throw percetage
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:16 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


That's an outdated scouting report.


not sure why you claim this....but unless I misunderstand your claim, you are incorrect. I have read/listened to both Vecenie and Zwicker in recent weeks, and their comments in this area are consistent and correct.


Maybe it's because, I don't know, he studies more film than everyone on this forum combined and has statistics to back it up? Unlike other people on this forum, who spend their entire day posting awful takes and telling other people they're wrong with no basis in any sort of logic or reasoning?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
epak wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Fortysixn2 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
.

Another fun video to watch. Watching these videos really shows me what a poor shooting team we are, Lonzo is setting up a lot of great shots that end up as straight bricks (looking at you brook).


UCLA was intoxicating to watch last year because guys could shoot and were being setup perfectly by Lonzo. It was a beautiful thing to watch. This Lakers team is excruciating to watch because of their lack of shooting.



Matt Thomas shooting 53-55% 3P% in spanish league...


Sweet.
Any stats on how many buckets he gives up?

I admittedly never watched him in college, but his defense didn’t look bad to me at all in summer league.

We have to be careful the time we don’t fall victim to stereotyping. Just because he’s a short, slow footed, white, pure shooter, doesn’t automatically mean he’s a bad defender.

I haven’t seen any evidence that he isn’t any worse of a defender than Blue or Clarkson.

He actually looked tough as nails on defense to me — reminded me of Fisher, Harpring, or Majerle in terms of toughness.


Yeah, simply put, it was pretty bad in Vegas.

Oh, and it's definitely not stereotyping.

Using Blue or Clarkson as a standard of who is better or worse, doesn't exactly mean it's actually good, either.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject:

The Lebrons wrote:
adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


That's an outdated scouting report.


not sure why you claim this....but unless I misunderstand your claim, you are incorrect. I have read/listened to both Vecenie and Zwicker in recent weeks, and their comments in this area are consistent and correct.


Maybe it's because, I don't know, he studies more film than everyone on this forum combined and has statistics to back it up? Unlike other people on this forum, who spend their entire day posting awful takes and telling other people they're wrong with no basis in any sort of logic or reasoning?


Everyone has different ideas of what point of attack defense is. Even Zwicker thinks Kris Dunn is going to be THE GUY in terms of POA defense and I still think it's Marcus Smart.

I think they each prioritize ideas of POA defense differently.

Zo has been WAYYYYYYY better since the season started. But if it's crunch time and I had the preference, I'd want JC or KCP at POA and Zo off-ball. I trust their feet on man-D. I trust his instincts off-ball.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:24 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


That's an outdated scouting report.


No. Outdated means at some point it was valid.

Zwicker's pre-draft breakdown of Zo's issues finishing at the rim has proven to be right on point.


At one point, he did retract a lot with Zo's finishing, only because it was so efficient. But his thoughts on flexibility/mid-air adjustment, continuously finishing with the left hand, all legit.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject:

The Lebrons wrote:
adkindo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


That's an outdated scouting report.


not sure why you claim this....but unless I misunderstand your claim, you are incorrect. I have read/listened to both Vecenie and Zwicker in recent weeks, and their comments in this area are consistent and correct.


Maybe it's because, I don't know, he studies more film than everyone on this forum combined and has statistics to back it up? Unlike other people on this forum, who spend their entire day posting awful takes and telling other people they're wrong with no basis in any sort of logic or reasoning?


you struggling to read or comprehend? Maybe give it another try....I am questioning why he is calling it an "outdated scouting report" when both individuals have discussed the topic multiple times in recent weeks.

In the part of the response that you felt compelled to bold, it is not my opinion vs. GT's, or GT's vs. the two individuals on the podcast. I feel like this is pretty clear.

Honestly, what does it have to do with you at all? It's not like you are giving an opinion or continuing the discussion....only chiming in to mistakenly defend another poster, with attempted passive aggressive swipes.
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epak
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:36 pm    Post subject:

Was it really passive? Seemed straight on aggressive to me.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:38 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Everyone has different ideas of what point of attack defense is.


I have always considered it the ability to stay in front and/or attached to the individual your defending when they have the ball or are receiving the ball. Is there another definition?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:48 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Everyone has different ideas of what point of attack defense is.


I have always considered it the ability to stay in front and/or attached to the individual your defending when they have the ball or are receiving the ball. Is there another definition?


Can he sit down on defense?
Does he stop the basketball early in transition sequences?
Does he cut off downhill distance to help cut off drive/dribble penetration?
Does he gamble?
Does he swipe instead of using his feet when he gets tired?
Are his arms up?
What position is he denying on the floor?
Does he keep up laterally after two steps?
Does he put pressure on the ball when the dribble is given up?
Can he heat up his assignment and force a turnover?
How well does he use his length on defense?
Does he force the offensive player into his weaknesses when attacking the basket?
Does he demonstrate hoop IQ at the point of attack, meaning, does he space non-shooters, but doesn't allow them to get into a rhythm?
Can he provide great ball-denial, after the ball is given up?
Does he communicate?
Does he defend straight into the help to trap/force bad shots?
Can he switch in team defensive scheme if necessary?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:49 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


That's an outdated scouting report.


No. Outdated means at some point it was valid.

Zwicker's pre-draft breakdown of Zo's issues finishing at the rim has proven to be right on point.
no they havent. Zo has issues every where.

no one is being proven correct unless you thought the guy couldnt make a basic layup with no defenders around. thats what he's doing at times right now. blowing wide open layups. he can't make anything right now. that was never the case in hs, never the case in college. remember he's not going up against Deandre jordan every night in the paint. nor is he having to deal with bron every day or Kawhi every other day.

or some lock down pg.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:53 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Everyone has different ideas of what point of attack defense is.


I have always considered it the ability to stay in front and/or attached to the individual your defending when they have the ball or are receiving the ball. Is there another definition?


Can he sit down on defense?
Does he stop the basketball early in transition sequences?
Does he cut off downhill distance to help cut off drive/dribble penetration?
Does he gamble?
Does he swipe instead of using his feet when he gets tired?
Are his arms up?
What position is he denying on the floor?
Does he keep up laterally after two steps?
Does he put pressure on the ball when the dribble is given up?
Can he heat up his assignment and force a turnover?
How well does he use his length on defense?
Does he force the offensive player into his weaknesses when attacking the basket?
Does he demonstrate hoop IQ at the point of attack, meaning, does he space non-shooters, but doesn't allow them to get into a rhythm?
Can he provide great ball-denial, after the ball is given up?
Does he communicate?
Does he defend straight into the help to trap/force bad shots?
Can he switch in team defensive scheme if necessary?


I like my definition better
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:54 pm    Post subject:

You can stick to the guy, but it can still be John Wall driving right, and going for a left-handed dunk.

Not exactly great POA defense.

What's crazy is watching Marcus Smart, knowing he checks off A LOT on that list.

We didn't even talk about full-court presses/bumping slashers mid-drive without committing fouls/taking charges/digging at the ball/can he recover.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Listening to the recent episode of Sam Vecenie's Game Theory podcast, and he had Cole Zwicker on....they spoke a decent amount about Ball's struggles. They had him @ the 4th and 5th best prospect going into the draft....they both agreed they would keep him at that spot....or maybe drop him one spot even after seeing his shooting struggles.

They also discussed what type of player to pair with Ball....his solid off ball defense and his poor on ball / point of attack defense.

Game Theory Podcast


That's an outdated scouting report.


No. Outdated means at some point it was valid.

Zwicker's pre-draft breakdown of Zo's issues finishing at the rim has proven to be right on point.
no they havent. Zo has issues every where.

no one is being proven correct unless you thought the guy couldnt make a basic layup with no defenders around. thats what he's doing at times right now. blowing wide open layups. he can't make anything right now. that was never the case in hs, never the case in college. remember he's not going up against Deandre jordan every night in the paint. nor is he having to deal with bron every day or Kawhi every other day.

or some lock down pg.


Zwicker was clear that Ball's high efficiency finishing in college was mostly based on uncontested finishing. He was very detailed in Ball's limited handle, lack of athletic agility and difficulty finishing when contested (although a low sample size), would likely prove problematic in the NBA. He pretty much nailed it.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:06 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
You can stick to the guy, but it can still be John Wall driving right, and going for a left-handed dunk.

Not exactly great POA defense.

What's crazy is watching Marcus Smart, knowing he checks off A LOT on that list.

We didn't even talk about full-court presses/bumping slashers mid-drive without committing fouls/taking charges/digging at the ball/can he recover.


Most young guards are poor POA defenders, which is a generally accepted fact. I think Ball will have to rely on craft, angles, strategy, etc. more than most smaller athletic guards...just based on his size and lateral quickness.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:08 pm    Post subject:

Interested to see how Lonzo can adjust to better make layups.
Number one might be as mentioned before to jump when closer to the bucket.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:10 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
You can stick to the guy, but it can still be John Wall driving right, and going for a left-handed dunk.

Not exactly great POA defense.

What's crazy is watching Marcus Smart, knowing he checks off A LOT on that list.

We didn't even talk about full-court presses/bumping slashers mid-drive without committing fouls/taking charges/digging at the ball/can he recover.


Most young guards are poor POA defenders, which is a generally accepted fact. I think Ball will have to rely on craft, angles, strategy, etc. more than most guards...just based on his size and lateral quickness.


Yeah but there's a lot of people that think PG defenders don't exist, which isn't true either.

Kris Dunn and Marcus Smart were VERY effective VERY early.

Lonzo is more along the lines of a guy that may get beat, then hustle his ass off to recover for a swat. Percentages of that being effective are small, but he tries his ass off.

But point stands. Different ideas/priorities of what point of attack defense is.

I'm just picky, because sticking to a guy, doesn't mean shutting him down. Quite a few NBA players can still score with reasonable efficiency despite that, or get to their spots at will (Wall, Giannis, Simmons) as point of attack guys, even if you stick to them.
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