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LandsbergerRules
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Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 11197
Location: The Other Perspective
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 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | It's concerning that if his three ball isn't falling then he becomes a net-negative on offense. That literally is the only way he can score considering he has no mid-range, is one of (if not) the worst finishers in the league and makes Shaq look like Steve Nash at the free throw line. If that three ball doesn't become consistent then him and the Lakers are in for some trouble, the Lakers are a worse offensive team when he's on the court compared to when he's on the bench.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balllo01/on-off/2018
Although his defense is absolutely elite. |
Yup, Zo has such limited tools offensively, he has no backup plan when his three ball isn't falling. He is a nervous wreck on the FT line, too. Both problems are incredibly frustrating, but the mental issues on the line might be harder to solve, especially when the pressure gets even more intense as the team becomes a playoff contender.
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watchME
Star Player
Joined: 06 May 2011
Posts: 3384
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Pesci wrote: | Ball is an elite role-player. He’ll never average 17 a game.
What he will do is average a triple double though and when multiple rings.
He’ll never develop into a scorer like many here suggest. Randle showed at Kentucky that he was a potential franchise player who could score twenty a game in the league. Ingram showed at Duke what he could be.
Ball has shown me at UCLA that, offensively, he’s a three-point shooter and an off ball catch and shoot guy. He’ll never be a natural driver and finisher. He’ll never be a natural pull up in the midrange type of guy. It’s never been his game and it’s a major reason why he looks so unnatural when he tries these things in real games.
He can work on his game all he wants, but in the end, he’ll never be a anything close to a go-to scorer who can go get you a bucket anytime he wants.
I’ve been saying it all along. He’s a role-player, an elite one, a championship-level one, one who just may go into the Hall.
He’s an EXTREMELY unique player with extremely unique gifts, but he’ll never be a scorer. The Kidd comparisons are apt, except that Ball won’t be the same driver and finsher as Kidd, and Ball will be three times the shooter. |
I don't buy it. I believe if he works on his handles (Every PG ends up having to) and learns to float it up once he is inside the paint he will be fine. |
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Halflife
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 16742
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Pesci wrote: | Ball is an elite role-player. He’ll never average 17 a game.
What he will do is average a triple double though and when multiple rings.
He’ll never develop into a scorer like many here suggest. Randle showed at Kentucky that he was a potential franchise player who could score twenty a game in the league. Ingram showed at Duke what he could be.
Ball has shown me at UCLA that, offensively, he’s a three-point shooter and an off ball catch and shoot guy. He’ll never be a natural driver and finisher. He’ll never be a natural pull up in the midrange type of guy. It’s never been his game and it’s a major reason why he looks so unnatural when he tries these things in real games.
He can work on his game all he wants, but in the end, he’ll never be a anything close to a go-to scorer who can go get you a bucket anytime he wants.
I’ve been saying it all along. He’s a role-player, an elite one, a championship-level one, one who just may go into the Hall.
He’s an EXTREMELY unique player with extremely unique gifts, but he’ll never be a scorer. The Kidd comparisons are apt, except that Ball won’t be the same driver and finsher as Kidd, and Ball will be three times the shooter. |
so in the end hes a HOF role player? awesome. Like pippen, worthy, stockton etc. |
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Fortysixn2
Star Player
Joined: 22 Jun 2016
Posts: 2849
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:59 am Post subject: |
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In the balance he is having the impact that was expected. His offense is worse than anticipated (although he had a decent stretch) his defense is better than anticipated (among the league’s best). His dad, who was a huge distraction the first half of the season...has either chilled out or is just too busy in Lithuania. He has had a few injuries...ect.
Not a glowing awesome rookie season so far, not a bad one.
I think the most encouraging thing is that we’ve seen what’s actually elite about him, his anticipation and his hands. Those are things you can’t teach or work on, the other things are going to improve over time hopefully.
I’d rather have him than Fultz at this point, so that’s good  |
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splashmtn
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Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 3961
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Fortysixn2 wrote: | In the balance he is having the impact that was expected. His offense is worse than anticipated (although he had a decent stretch) his defense is better than anticipated (among the league’s best). His dad, who was a huge distraction the first half of the season...has either chilled out or is just too busy in Lithuania. He has had a few injuries...ect.
Not a glowing awesome rookie season so far, not a bad one.
I think the most encouraging thing is that we’ve seen what’s actually elite about him, his anticipation and his hands. Those are things you can’t teach or work on, the other things are going to improve over time hopefully.
I’d rather have him than Fultz at this point, so that’s good |
i some what agree with this.
I think his shooting/ft shooting as well is more mental than it is that funky form of his. But either way, lets go on ahead and fix that over the course of the next few seasons/summers. so maybe, even if the mental part still needs work he can have more ROOM for error on those shots.
but all in all, the shooting/ft shooting is 70% mental 30% form. we know this because we've seen other guys with ugly forms that were money.
It's as if he's always known his scoring wasnt the greatest attribute so now that he's playing vs elite offensive guys. its messing with his head like "man...this damian lillard guy is super good.. I'm never going to be that good  " bricks 2 free throws and air balls another 3. When most thought it would be the nba's elite defenders that would've made him work more for his offense. the nba's defense is suspect at best nowadays in most games. you now have defensive moments, vs lock down defenders or lock down teams(the pistons/celtics that beat us the last time).
as far as his finishing in traffic in the half court. he still tries to do things that worked well in highschool. not going to fly in the big leagues. guys are too long and too athletic. you see KCP catchup and beat wayne's shot against the glass vs miami. showing the ball is out in the nba uness you're super athletic. |
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LakerSD
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Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23788
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Late in the 3rd, Lonzo was looking at IT to take the 2 for 1. IT didn’t do it, Lonzo rolled his eyes and shook his head. |
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OCWA
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 3660
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSD wrote: | | Late in the 3rd, Lonzo was looking at IT to take the 2 for 1. IT didn’t do it, Lonzo rolled his eyes and shook his head. |
Lonzo does not suffer fools gladly. We have seen it numerous times this season where he gets upset and animated when other players make stupid/lackadaisical plays. Him pushing Randle towards his defensive assignment, him getting visibly aggravated when BI dribbles with his head down, and him getting mad at IT for not recognizing the 2 for 1 opportunity. Zo's, B-Ball IQ is off the charts and he will be a demanding teammate, like a leader should. He is basically a coach on the floor. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144469
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| OCWA wrote: | | LakerSD wrote: | | Late in the 3rd, Lonzo was looking at IT to take the 2 for 1. IT didn’t do it, Lonzo rolled his eyes and shook his head. |
Lonzo does not suffer fools gladly. We have seen it numerous times this season where he gets upset and animated when other players make stupid/lackadaisical plays. Him pushing Randle towards his defensive assignment, him getting visibly aggravated when BI dribbles with his head down, and him getting mad at IT for not recognizing the 2 for 1 opportunity. Zo's, B-Ball IQ is off the charts and he will be a demanding teammate, like a leader should. He is basically a coach on the floor. |
Imagine the problems we would have if the other players rolled their eyes and shook their heads when he passed up an open shot that ruins the offense. We don’t need a coach on the floor, we need a player. High b-ball IQs don’t sink the offense because they lack confidence.
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | OCWA wrote: | | LakerSD wrote: | | Late in the 3rd, Lonzo was looking at IT to take the 2 for 1. IT didn’t do it, Lonzo rolled his eyes and shook his head. |
Lonzo does not suffer fools gladly. We have seen it numerous times this season where he gets upset and animated when other players make stupid/lackadaisical plays. Him pushing Randle towards his defensive assignment, him getting visibly aggravated when BI dribbles with his head down, and him getting mad at IT for not recognizing the 2 for 1 opportunity. Zo's, B-Ball IQ is off the charts and he will be a demanding teammate, like a leader should. He is basically a coach on the floor. |
Imagine the problems we would have if the other players rolled their eyes and shook their heads when he passed up an open shot that ruins the offense. We don’t need a coach on the floor, we need a player. High b-ball IQs don’t sink the offense because they lack confidence. |
I can’t believe anybody would say this after watching the Lakers the last few years.
Kid just can’t win, he constantly gets criticized for not shooting and shooting too much simultaneously. And he’s a rookie PG... |
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venturalakersfan
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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We need players, we have a good coaching staff. Let’s allow Lonzo to become a player before we worry about him being a coach on the floor.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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eddiejonze
Star Player
Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 7251
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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They got away from running the BI or julius alley opp for Zo that they seemed to do once a game for like 5 games straight- do it early in the game, get his offensive confidence up.
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mookielala
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Joined: 29 Jul 2012
Posts: 3026
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm definitely no expert, but it's my opinion that Lonzo needs someone to work on his mechanics. They don't need to revamp the shot entirely, but help him to be less erratic. I feel like he is figuring out how to shoot every time he puts one up -- it's like spinning a roulette wheel. That won't work in the NBA. |
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | We need players, we have a good coaching staff. Let’s allow Lonzo to become a player before we worry about him being a coach on the floor. |
He’s naturally one and it’s an asset to have on a team. |
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OCWA
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 3660
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | OCWA wrote: | | LakerSD wrote: | | Late in the 3rd, Lonzo was looking at IT to take the 2 for 1. IT didn’t do it, Lonzo rolled his eyes and shook his head. |
Lonzo does not suffer fools gladly. We have seen it numerous times this season where he gets upset and animated when other players make stupid/lackadaisical plays. Him pushing Randle towards his defensive assignment, him getting visibly aggravated when BI dribbles with his head down, and him getting mad at IT for not recognizing the 2 for 1 opportunity. Zo's, B-Ball IQ is off the charts and he will be a demanding teammate, like a leader should. He is basically a coach on the floor. |
Imagine the problems we would have if the other players rolled their eyes and shook their heads when he passed up an open shot that ruins the offense. We don’t need a coach on the floor, we need a player. High b-ball IQs don’t sink the offense because they lack confidence. |
I've seen other players get on Lonzo when he makes mistakes. I've also seen Lonzo get mad at himself when he makes mistakes. That's what you want. You want everyone held accountable. That is why Walton said he liked the Randle/IT argument. The culture is changing, and it's about time. Magic was a demanding teammate and I'm sure the culture change we are seeing started at the top. |
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LakerMindLA
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Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 5344
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | Lonzo doesn't fit into any traditional archetype, that is why it is hard for fans to see what his potential is. Nobody really knows. He looks awkward finishing and shooting floaters. Only thing he is relatively comfortable doing is shooting 3s. That's streaky.
He needs to shoot the mid-range jumper like he did in that GSW game. The best case scenario he's shooting mid-range/finishing like Livingston and keeps his form on 3s with some minor tweaks.
I think the finishing will get better. I don't think he will ever be an elite iso scorer other than his step back shots. He is going to re-define the PG position and it could be a success. He certainly isn't a bust but most fans like Donovan Mitchell's game more because it's easier to appreciate scoring.
Ingram looked pretty damn awkward last year, and so did Randle his first couple of years. We'll just have to hope his skills catch up with his bball IQ. |
It is not that it is easier to appreciate scoring, it is that to become a championship contending team, you need an elite go-to scorer.
I almost view Lonzo at the 3rd wheel on a championship contending team. You need that 3rd wheel, but there are a bunch of really good 3rd wheels that would look along side two stars. |
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trablos
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Joined: 10 May 2017
Posts: 3020
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | We need players, we have a good coaching staff. Let’s allow Lonzo to become a player before we worry about him being a coach on the floor. |
The best coach in the world can only do so much, they can't get on the court and do what they ask their players to. The best thing a coach can have is a player-coach who will take what the coach wants to do and implement it real time. It's why the best managers empower their employees with a certain expertise to execute their strategy.
Lonzo is already a "player". Other than the funk he was in his first 6 weeks of his career he's only been a net positive because he's been tasked with doing what he does best. Using his IQ and natural skills to impact the game. |
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trablos
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| LakerMindLA wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | Lonzo doesn't fit into any traditional archetype, that is why it is hard for fans to see what his potential is. Nobody really knows. He looks awkward finishing and shooting floaters. Only thing he is relatively comfortable doing is shooting 3s. That's streaky.
He needs to shoot the mid-range jumper like he did in that GSW game. The best case scenario he's shooting mid-range/finishing like Livingston and keeps his form on 3s with some minor tweaks.
I think the finishing will get better. I don't think he will ever be an elite iso scorer other than his step back shots. He is going to re-define the PG position and it could be a success. He certainly isn't a bust but most fans like Donovan Mitchell's game more because it's easier to appreciate scoring.
Ingram looked pretty damn awkward last year, and so did Randle his first couple of years. We'll just have to hope his skills catch up with his bball IQ. |
It is not that it is easier to appreciate scoring, it is that to become a championship contending team, you need an elite go-to scorer.
I almost view Lonzo at the 3rd wheel on a championship contending team. You need that 3rd wheel, but there are a bunch of really good 3rd wheels that would look along side two stars. |
It depends how you define "wheel". If it's a scoring option, then he should never be more than a 3rd wheel. If you define it as a cog in your system, then he's surely going to be 1st or 2nd in terms of how important a guy is to your team winning. I feel that impacting your team by playing to your strengths should be what determines how valuable a guy is to his respective team.
"If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life thinking its stupid"
-some guy who studied gravity or something |
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LakerMindLA
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Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 5344
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| trablos wrote: | | LakerMindLA wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | Lonzo doesn't fit into any traditional archetype, that is why it is hard for fans to see what his potential is. Nobody really knows. He looks awkward finishing and shooting floaters. Only thing he is relatively comfortable doing is shooting 3s. That's streaky.
He needs to shoot the mid-range jumper like he did in that GSW game. The best case scenario he's shooting mid-range/finishing like Livingston and keeps his form on 3s with some minor tweaks.
I think the finishing will get better. I don't think he will ever be an elite iso scorer other than his step back shots. He is going to re-define the PG position and it could be a success. He certainly isn't a bust but most fans like Donovan Mitchell's game more because it's easier to appreciate scoring.
Ingram looked pretty damn awkward last year, and so did Randle his first couple of years. We'll just have to hope his skills catch up with his bball IQ. |
It is not that it is easier to appreciate scoring, it is that to become a championship contending team, you need an elite go-to scorer.
I almost view Lonzo at the 3rd wheel on a championship contending team. You need that 3rd wheel, but there are a bunch of really good 3rd wheels that would look along side two stars. |
It depends how you define "wheel". If it's a scoring option, then he should never be more than a 3rd wheel. If you define it as a cog in your system, then he's surely going to be 1st or 2nd in terms of how important a guy is to your team winning. I feel that impacting your team by playing to your strengths should be what determines how valuable a guy is to his respective team.
"If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life thinking its stupid"
-some guy who studied gravity or something |
Whether we use the term cog or wheel, unless he becomes a much better offensively, I don't think he will ever be the 1st or 2nd most important player on your team in terms of winning a championship.
You will still need two elite scorers and if you have those players, you have a championship contending team with or without Lonzo. |
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32
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Posts: 73071
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:00 am Post subject: |
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His rookie season has been uneventful and inconsistent. Missing 20+ games hasn't helped matters either. It seems like he never got into any kind of rhythm.
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | We need players, we have a good coaching staff. Let’s allow Lonzo to become a player before we worry about him being a coach on the floor. |
He’s naturally one and it’s an asset to have on a team. |
So passing up wide open shots and sinking the offense is natural? Come on, separate the hype from the truth. If he is an on court coach then he isn’t a good one.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| The PG is always an extension of the coach on the floor. Him passing up open shots has more to do with skill level than his "coaching" on the floor. Our offense runs better with him on the floor and our defense is much better. That is about what you are going to get from a rookie. |
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | We need players, we have a good coaching staff. Let’s allow Lonzo to become a player before we worry about him being a coach on the floor. |
He’s naturally one and it’s an asset to have on a team. |
So passing up wide open shots and sinking the offense is natural? Come on, separate the hype from the truth. If he is an on court coach then he isn’t a good one. |
Yes he can pass up open shots and hurt the offense(you’re ridiculously hyperbolic) and still be a coach on the floor. A good one at that. If you can’t see it I’m sorry but I’m not gonna educate you on why he’s a natural coach on the floor. |
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Jesusdelonla
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Joined: 24 Jan 2018
Posts: 15430
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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i don't care about his crooked shot, he is usually wide open and he is missing those shots. so 1000 shots made in summer routine.
also how about finishing at the rim? or a tear drop? 1000 of those over the summer as well |
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Endless3D
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Joined: 03 Mar 2018
Posts: 794
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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I think that his rim finishing is more of him needing to watch tape, stop showing the ball early and gaining confidence in making free throws thus being more willing to absorb contact.
But making free throws comes down to his shot so in a weird way it's all gonna come down to the shot. |
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GoldenThroat
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