OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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Judah
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject:

deal wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
Until Lonzo proves he's not useless offensively, he has no right to be used in the same sentence as Magic, Curry or "generational."


He already has but I’m not surprised you refuse to acknowledge it or are incapable of noticing it.


Lonzo is a liabilty with that terrible shot right now. This off season
he needs to work on;

- changing his shot, he can practice that pretzel shot to death but
it sucks..change it, period
- practice his new shot a billion times
- gain 20 lbs of muscle & work on his body

20 pounds of muscle in one summer, huh? Perhaps Magic should fire Gunnar and replace him with Barry Bonds instead.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:12 pm    Post subject:

deal wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
Until Lonzo proves he's not useless offensively, he has no right to be used in the same sentence as Magic, Curry or "generational."


He already has but I’m not surprised you refuse to acknowledge it or are incapable of noticing it.


Lonzo is a liabilty with that terrible shot right now. This off season
he needs to work on;

- changing his shot, he can practice that pretzel shot to death but
it sucks..change it, period
- practice his new shot a billion times
- gain 20 lbs of muscle & work on his body

We already know that the Lakers don’t want him to change his shot and I’m pretty sure it’s impossible to put on 20 pounds of muscle over the course of ~6 months.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:37 pm    Post subject:

Practice wrote:
deal wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
Until Lonzo proves he's not useless offensively, he has no right to be used in the same sentence as Magic, Curry or "generational."


He already has but I’m not surprised you refuse to acknowledge it or are incapable of noticing it.


Lonzo is a liabilty with that terrible shot right now. This off season
he needs to work on;

- changing his shot, he can practice that pretzel shot to death but
it sucks..change it, period
- practice his new shot a billion times
- gain 20 lbs of muscle & work on his body

We already know that the Lakers don’t want him to change his shot and I’m pretty sure it’s impossible to put on 20 pounds of muscle over the course of ~6 months.

Didn’t Kobe do just that, gained 20lbs or muscle? I remember Corey Magette got all impressed and all
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:12 pm    Post subject:

You guys crack me up
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:49 pm    Post subject:

I don't see Lonzo ever becoming good at attacking the basket and finishing. He has a poor first step, lacks iso moves, and average explosion. He needs to be a legit 3 pt shooter to be a serious offensive threat.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:31 pm    Post subject:

Wvc0925 wrote:
I don't see Lonzo ever becoming good at attacking the basket and finishing. He has a poor first step, lacks iso moves, and average explosion. He needs to be a legit 3 pt shooter to be a serious offensive threat.


Said the guy with no cred
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:49 am    Post subject:

Wvc0925 wrote:
I don't see Lonzo ever becoming good at attacking the basket and finishing. He has a poor first step, lacks iso moves, and average explosion. He needs to be a legit 3 pt shooter to be a serious offensive threat.


His first step is good enough to attack off the pick and roll. Lol at using lacking iso moves as an example of why he can never improve... he's 20 years old. He really struggled finishing this season when he got there thouh. But again he's 20 years old, he's going to improve.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:51 am    Post subject:

JKidd without being a journeyman, hopefully for him
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:31 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
Wvc0925 wrote:
I don't see Lonzo ever becoming good at attacking the basket and finishing. He has a poor first step, lacks iso moves, and average explosion. He needs to be a legit 3 pt shooter to be a serious offensive threat.


His first step is good enough to attack off the pick and roll. Lol at using lacking iso moves as an example of why he can never improve... he's 20 years old. He really struggled finishing this season when he got there thouh. But again he's 20 years old, he's going to improve.


I really don't think Zo's first step is that bad. His problem is that he takes bad angles to drive around his defender and goes way too wide, I've watched him waste many scoring opportunities because of that. Someone needs to teach him how to drive through his defender's hip and not try to drive a mile around them. He does however need work on the ball handling part of it, he's plenty quick enough but the ball seems to slow him down. Basic stuff, drop your chest, shorten your dribble etc.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject:

Am I the only one who would prefer to trade Ball instead of Ingram to the Spurs for a deal centered around KL? I am starting to think we can have our 1-4 positions filled by forwards in interchangeable roles. I can envision this lineup next year

PG- Lebron
SG- Paul George
SF- Ingram
PF- Randle
C- Lopez
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject:

al242 wrote:
Am I the only one who would prefer to trade Ball instead of Ingram to the Spurs for a deal centered around KL? I am starting to think we can have our 1-4 positions filled by forwards in interchangeable roles. I can envision this lineup next year

PG- Lebron
SG- Paul George
SF- Ingram
PF- Randle
C- Lopez


If you don't think Lonzo is that good, why would the Spurs want him (unless he's actually very good)?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:20 am    Post subject:

al242 wrote:
Am I the only one who would prefer to trade Ball instead of Ingram to the Spurs for a deal centered around KL? I am starting to think we can have our 1-4 positions filled by forwards in interchangeable roles. I can envision this lineup next year

PG- Lebron
SG- Paul George
SF- Ingram
PF- Randle
C- Lopez


I agree but only because Ingram's ceiling is higher, imo.
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governator
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:42 am    Post subject:

oldschool32 wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
Wvc0925 wrote:
I don't see Lonzo ever becoming good at attacking the basket and finishing. He has a poor first step, lacks iso moves, and average explosion. He needs to be a legit 3 pt shooter to be a serious offensive threat.


His first step is good enough to attack off the pick and roll. Lol at using lacking iso moves as an example of why he can never improve... he's 20 years old. He really struggled finishing this season when he got there thouh. But again he's 20 years old, he's going to improve.


I really don't think Zo's first step is that bad. His problem is that he takes bad angles to drive around his defender and goes way too wide, I've watched him waste many scoring opportunities because of that. Someone needs to teach him how to drive through his defender's hip and not try to drive a mile around them. He does however need work on the ball handling part of it, he's plenty quick enough but the ball seems to slow him down. Basic stuff, drop your chest, shorten your dribble etc.

Yup, similar to Randle. Both have quick first step but struggle to finish around the rim. Randle fixer that with better strength/explosion... Lonzo can do the same
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:09 pm    Post subject:

al242 wrote:
Am I the only one who would prefer to trade Ball instead of Ingram to the Spurs for a deal centered around KL? I am starting to think we can have our 1-4 positions filled by forwards in interchangeable roles. I can envision this lineup next year

PG- Lebron
SG- Paul George
SF- Ingram
PF- Randle
C- Lopez

I'm super super confused here, you mentioned trading for KL and he's not in your starting lineup?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:31 pm    Post subject:

Christopher Walken wrote:
al242 wrote:
Am I the only one who would prefer to trade Ball instead of Ingram to the Spurs for a deal centered around KL? I am starting to think we can have our 1-4 positions filled by forwards in interchangeable roles. I can envision this lineup next year

PG- Lebron
SG- Paul George
SF- Ingram
PF- Randle
C- Lopez

I'm super super confused here, you mentioned trading for KL and he's not in your starting lineup?


Kawhi as our SUPER 6th man... Duhh...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject:

I'd trade Lonzo for KL in a heartbeat. Question is how high do the Spurs and other teams value Lonzo though? After seeing how broken his jumpshot is, I'm not so sure other teams are so thrill about Lonzo. When we drafted him, we made it with assumption that his 40% 3-pt shooting percentage in college would translate to the NBA. If you remove the 3-pt shooting from the equation, then he's nowhere near the top prospects.

A team trading for him would have to assume the risk, like the Lakers did, of whether he would find his shooting touch next season or after.

I'm not even gonna go into how badly he shoots the ball while driving. Needless to say, Lonzo has major flaws (which many here seem to ignore). Ingram, not so much. I'd prefer to keep Ingram for life though even if our frontcourt is gonna be overcrowded with talent.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:45 pm    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
I'd trade Lonzo for KL in a heartbeat. Question is how high do the Spurs and other teams value Lonzo though? After seeing how broken his jumpshot is, I'm not so sure other teams are so thrill about Lonzo. When we drafted him, we made it with assumption that his 40% 3-pt shooting percentage in college would translate to the NBA. If you remove the 3-pt shooting from the equation, then he's nowhere near the top prospects.

A team trading for him would have to assume the risk, like the Lakers did, of whether he would find his shooting touch next season or after.

I'm not even gonna go into how badly he shoots the ball while driving. Needless to say, Lonzo has major flaws (which many here seem to ignore). Ingram, not so much. I'd prefer to keep Ingram for life though even if our frontcourt is gonna be overcrowded with talent.


Despite the gains that Ingram made, he is still not even an average player in the NBA...with a -1.3 BMP. That means his presence in the lineup costs us 1.3 points per 100 possessions vs an average NBA player. His numbers show that defensively he’s now an average NBA, offensively he’s improving but he’s not close.

Lonzo on the other hand, despite his garbage shooting has a +1.7 BMP...that means his defense is so good (+2.5 per 100) that is outweighs his offense (-0.8).

There is this terrible bias for fans that scoring is more important that anything else. Scoring is important, but defense is just as important. If Lonzo was a top 3 offensive guy at his position (because he is that good defensively) and sucked defensively, people would say that he’s a superstar. It’s the opposite and all people care about it his shooting.

A good example of this is Devin Booker. Guy is a star in the making who dropped 70 right? His offensive BPM is +2.9...that’s really good. His defense? -2.4. So in the wash he is helping his team out by half a point a night vs an average NBA player or so because he is so bad on the other end. Lonzo? He helps his team be better by around 2 points a night vs. an average NBA player.

If you want to focus on his garbage FT shot or how inconsistent his 3PT shooting is, or his inability to finish at the rim...that’s cool. But he is so good running the offense and defensively, he’s already a great young player who’s only getting better.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:55 pm    Post subject:

Fortysixn2 wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
I'd trade Lonzo for KL in a heartbeat. Question is how high do the Spurs and other teams value Lonzo though? After seeing how broken his jumpshot is, I'm not so sure other teams are so thrill about Lonzo. When we drafted him, we made it with assumption that his 40% 3-pt shooting percentage in college would translate to the NBA. If you remove the 3-pt shooting from the equation, then he's nowhere near the top prospects.

A team trading for him would have to assume the risk, like the Lakers did, of whether he would find his shooting touch next season or after.

I'm not even gonna go into how badly he shoots the ball while driving. Needless to say, Lonzo has major flaws (which many here seem to ignore). Ingram, not so much. I'd prefer to keep Ingram for life though even if our frontcourt is gonna be overcrowded with talent.


Despite the gains that Ingram made, he is still not even an average player in the NBA...with a -1.3 BMP. That means his presence in the lineup costs us 1.3 points per 100 possessions vs an average NBA player. His numbers show that defensively he’s now an average NBA, offensively he’s improving but he’s not close.

Lonzo on the other hand, despite his garbage shooting has a +1.7 BMP...that means his defense is so good (+2.5 per 100) that is outweighs his offense (-0.8).

There is this terrible bias for fans that scoring is more important that anything else. Scoring is important, but defense is just as important. If Lonzo was a top 3 offensive guy at his position (because he is that good defensively) and sucked defensively, people would say that he’s a superstar. It’s the opposite and all people care about it his shooting.

A good example of this is Devin Booker. Guy is a star in the making who dropped 70 right? His offensive BPM is +2.9...that’s really good. His defense? -2.4. So in the wash he is helping his team out by half a point a night vs an average NBA player or so because he is so bad on the other end. Lonzo? He helps his team be better by around 2 points a night vs. an average NBA player.

If you want to focus on his garbage FT shot or how inconsistent his 3PT shooting is, or his inability to finish at the rim...that’s cool. But he is so good running the offense and defensively, he’s already a great young player who’s only getting better.


I don't know what BMP is but if you're talking about BPM (Box Plus/Minus), then it's a whole new different can of worms. Klay Thompson has BPM of +1.71, does that mean Lonzo is as good as Klay? Nance has a BPM of +2.90. He must be an awesome player then!!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject:

Fortysixn2 wrote:
Lonzo on the other hand, despite his garbage shooting has a +1.7 BMP...that means his defense is so good (+2.5 per 100) that is outweighs his offense (-0.8).

There is this terrible bias for fans that scoring is more important that anything else. Scoring is important, but defense is just as important. If Lonzo was a top 3 offensive guy at his position (because he is that good defensively) and sucked defensively, people would say that he’s a superstar. It’s the opposite and all people care about it his shooting.


Let's assume for sake of discussion that this is the model that Ball follows in his career: A good defender and a poor offensive player. I don't think that this will happen -- I think his offense will improve considerably over time. But play along with me for the moment, because I want to illustrate a point.

The problem is something we don't always think about: team construction. The current era of the NBA is all about offense from the backcourt and defense from the front court. It has always been that way to some extent, but in the current NBA it is more extreme than I can ever recall it being.

No matter how good a PG may be on the defensive end, a PG's defensive impact never (or almost never) compares to the defensive impact of a big man. Only two guards finished in the top 10 in DRPM: Murray and Robertson. Ball finished 36th. Oladipo and Butler were the only other guards who finished above Ball. 31 forwards and centers finished above him. Conversely, ORPM is dominated by guards. The only big men who show up in the top 20 are Jokic (10), Towns (12), and Porter (18).

The point is that Ball is playing an offensive position. It's great that he has done so well on defense, but in the current NBA his current production is not tenable on a long term basis. You can add more defense in the front court, but it is hard to add front court offense. If you aren't getting offense from the backcourt, you are not going to win. In the long run, Ball would be a bench player or maybe a role player alongside a superstar scoring guard.

Again, I expect Ball to get better on the offensive end. This is just a thought exercise. The points are (1) for a PG in the current NBA, defense is not just as important as offense, and (2) if he was a top 3 offensive player at his position, he would indeed be a superstar, unless you think that Curry, Harden, and Irving are defensive stoppers (I left out Westbrook, because he actually does play some defense).
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:18 pm    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
Fortysixn2 wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
I'd trade Lonzo for KL in a heartbeat. Question is how high do the Spurs and other teams value Lonzo though? After seeing how broken his jumpshot is, I'm not so sure other teams are so thrill about Lonzo. When we drafted him, we made it with assumption that his 40% 3-pt shooting percentage in college would translate to the NBA. If you remove the 3-pt shooting from the equation, then he's nowhere near the top prospects.

A team trading for him would have to assume the risk, like the Lakers did, of whether he would find his shooting touch next season or after.

I'm not even gonna go into how badly he shoots the ball while driving. Needless to say, Lonzo has major flaws (which many here seem to ignore). Ingram, not so much. I'd prefer to keep Ingram for life though even if our frontcourt is gonna be overcrowded with talent.


Despite the gains that Ingram made, he is still not even an average player in the NBA...with a -1.3 BMP. That means his presence in the lineup costs us 1.3 points per 100 possessions vs an average NBA player. His numbers show that defensively he’s now an average NBA, offensively he’s improving but he’s not close.

Lonzo on the other hand, despite his garbage shooting has a +1.7 BMP...that means his defense is so good (+2.5 per 100) that is outweighs his offense (-0.8).

There is this terrible bias for fans that scoring is more important that anything else. Scoring is important, but defense is just as important. If Lonzo was a top 3 offensive guy at his position (because he is that good defensively) and sucked defensively, people would say that he’s a superstar. It’s the opposite and all people care about it his shooting.

A good example of this is Devin Booker. Guy is a star in the making who dropped 70 right? His offensive BPM is +2.9...that’s really good. His defense? -2.4. So in the wash he is helping his team out by half a point a night vs an average NBA player or so because he is so bad on the other end. Lonzo? He helps his team be better by around 2 points a night vs. an average NBA player.

If you want to focus on his garbage FT shot or how inconsistent his 3PT shooting is, or his inability to finish at the rim...that’s cool. But he is so good running the offense and defensively, he’s already a great young player who’s only getting better.


I don't know what BMP is but if you're talking about BPM (Box Plus/Minus), then it's a whole new different can of worms. Klay Thompson has BPM of +1.71, does that mean Lonzo is as good as Klay? Nance has a BPM of +2.90. He must be an awesome player then!!


Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about...i got that part wrong, doesn’t invalidate my argument though. Is Lonzo as good as Klay? Is Nance better than both of them? I’m not sure what a “New Different Can of Worms” means, we are talking about player effectiveness...BPM is a way of looking at it, if you’d rather just look at PPG or FG% or something basic, that’s cool, but I’m just telling you what advanced numbers state.

If you ask my opinion, Larry nance would be an all star if not for the fact that he has injury/energy issues (energy issues may have to do with his crones). He can play around 65 games a season around 20 minutes a night. If he were able to play 80 games a season 36 minutes a game, he’d be a 15/12 guy with 2 steals a game...so he may be more effective in helping his team win than Klay, yeah.

I think you are confusing how “good” a player is with how much he helps his team. I’m not saying that Nance is “better” than Klay Thompson, what I’m saying is that he does more on the time he is on the court to help his team win than Klay Thompson...that’s a statistical fact. Klay is a more skilled player.

You can find statistical outliers, but the fact remains we were a team with a winning record with ball starting and a losing record without him. Trash shot or no, he’s a player who helps you win games...numbers don’t how the same for BI.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:23 pm    Post subject:

Its easier to be a good defensive player than a good offensive players. Those players are actually easier to come by though, which is why offense is weighted more heavily. Now, once in a while, there comes a defensive player who is so good that their offense doesn't matter as much. To AH's point, that players is typically a front court player, particularly because less is demanded offensively from a front court player and, thus, poor offense in the front court is easier to cope with.

Patrick Beverly, Tony Allen, Shane Battier all come to mind as amazing defenders from the backcourt or wing. However, they will never have the acclaim as guys like Mutumbo, Wallace or Gobert.

If Ball is just a top defender, but stays at his current offensive level, he's in the ballpark of Rajon Rondo. That's a good career, but not someone memorable. To be one of the greats in this league, as a backcourt player, he needs to improve his individual offense, no matter how well he affects his team. Just the way it is. The good news is, because his ability to affect his team offensively is already so great, he doesn't really need to make many strides to get there.

Consider that Ball averaged 10/7/7 on 44% true shooting with elite D this season. Jason Kidd, by comparison, spent most of his best years essentially averaging around 15/9/7 on around 50% true shooting with similar elite D. That won't shooting won't pass mustard today. The standard for Zo is likely something around 16-18/9-11/6-8 on 53%+ TS, while keeping his D up. That requires a significant improvement in shooting - that happens, his PPG will naturally rise to that level. Its all attainable. Again, he's really not that far away from that already.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject:

Fortysixn2 wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
Fortysixn2 wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
I'd trade Lonzo for KL in a heartbeat. Question is how high do the Spurs and other teams value Lonzo though? After seeing how broken his jumpshot is, I'm not so sure other teams are so thrill about Lonzo. When we drafted him, we made it with assumption that his 40% 3-pt shooting percentage in college would translate to the NBA. If you remove the 3-pt shooting from the equation, then he's nowhere near the top prospects.

A team trading for him would have to assume the risk, like the Lakers did, of whether he would find his shooting touch next season or after.

I'm not even gonna go into how badly he shoots the ball while driving. Needless to say, Lonzo has major flaws (which many here seem to ignore). Ingram, not so much. I'd prefer to keep Ingram for life though even if our frontcourt is gonna be overcrowded with talent.


Despite the gains that Ingram made, he is still not even an average player in the NBA...with a -1.3 BMP. That means his presence in the lineup costs us 1.3 points per 100 possessions vs an average NBA player. His numbers show that defensively he’s now an average NBA, offensively he’s improving but he’s not close.

Lonzo on the other hand, despite his garbage shooting has a +1.7 BMP...that means his defense is so good (+2.5 per 100) that is outweighs his offense (-0.8).

There is this terrible bias for fans that scoring is more important that anything else. Scoring is important, but defense is just as important. If Lonzo was a top 3 offensive guy at his position (because he is that good defensively) and sucked defensively, people would say that he’s a superstar. It’s the opposite and all people care about it his shooting.

A good example of this is Devin Booker. Guy is a star in the making who dropped 70 right? His offensive BPM is +2.9...that’s really good. His defense? -2.4. So in the wash he is helping his team out by half a point a night vs an average NBA player or so because he is so bad on the other end. Lonzo? He helps his team be better by around 2 points a night vs. an average NBA player.

If you want to focus on his garbage FT shot or how inconsistent his 3PT shooting is, or his inability to finish at the rim...that’s cool. But he is so good running the offense and defensively, he’s already a great young player who’s only getting better.


I don't know what BMP is but if you're talking about BPM (Box Plus/Minus), then it's a whole new different can of worms. Klay Thompson has BPM of +1.71, does that mean Lonzo is as good as Klay? Nance has a BPM of +2.90. He must be an awesome player then!!


Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about...i got that part wrong, doesn’t invalidate my argument though. Is Lonzo as good as Klay? Is Nance better than both of them? I’m not sure what a “New Different Can of Worms” means, we are talking about player effectiveness...BPM is a way of looking at it, if you’d rather just look at PPG or FG% or something basic, that’s cool, but I’m just telling you what advanced numbers state.

If you ask my opinion, Larry nance would be an all star if not for the fact that he has injury/energy issues (energy issues may have to do with his crones). He can play around 65 games a season around 20 minutes a night. If he were able to play 80 games a season 36 minutes a game, he’d be a 15/12 guy with 2 steals a game...so he may be more effective in helping his team win than Klay, yeah.

I think you are confusing how “good” a player is with how much he helps his team. I’m not saying that Nance is “better” than Klay Thompson, what I’m saying is that he does more on the time he is on the court to help his team win than Klay Thompson...that’s a statistical fact. Klay is a more skilled player.

You can find statistical outliers, but the fact remains we were a team with a winning record with ball starting and a losing record without him. Trash shot or no, he’s a player who helps you win games...numbers don’t how the same for BI.


I wasn't aware that we had a winning record with Ball starting. What's our record with and without Ball in the starting lineup?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:37 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Its easier to be a good defensive player than a good offensive players. Those players are actually easier to come by though, which is why offense is weighted more heavily. Now, once in a while, there comes a defensive player who is so good that their offense doesn't matter as much. To AH's point, that players is typically a front court player, particularly because less is demanded offensively from a front court player and, thus, poor offense in the front court is easier to cope with.

Patrick Beverly, Tony Allen, Shane Battier all come to mind as amazing defenders from the backcourt or wing. However, they will never have the acclaim as guys like Mutumbo, Wallace or Gobert.

If Ball is just a top defender, but stays at his current offensive level, he's in the ballpark of Rajon Rondo. That's a good career, but not someone memorable. To be one of the greats in this league, as a backcourt player, he needs to improve his individual offense, no matter how well he affects his team. Just the way it is. The good news is, because his ability to affect his team offensively is already so great, he doesn't really need to make many strides to get there.

Consider that Ball averaged 10/7/7 on 44% true shooting with elite D this season. Jason Kidd, by comparison, spent most of his best years essentially averaging around 15/9/7 on around 50% true shooting with similar elite D. That won't shooting won't pass mustard today. The standard for Zo is likely something around 16-18/9-11/6-8 on 53%+ TS, while keeping his D up. That requires a significant improvement in shooting - that happens, his PPG will naturally rise to that level. Its all attainable. Again, he's really not that far away from that already.


That's what my thinking from the very beginning. Is "a Rajon Rondo type" player good enough to be the starting PG on a team chasing a championship? If we stick with Lonzo, then we are confident he would improve his shooting but that's all speculation at this point. If he continued to struggle with his shooting and we decided to go in a different direction, it would set us back again.

Rajon Rondo did win a championship with the Celtics but they had like 3 all stars on the team at the time. Needless to say, it would be very hard to reach the top with a guard who can't shoot and can't drive, regardless of what other things he could do.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:42 pm    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Its easier to be a good defensive player than a good offensive players. Those players are actually easier to come by though, which is why offense is weighted more heavily. Now, once in a while, there comes a defensive player who is so good that their offense doesn't matter as much. To AH's point, that players is typically a front court player, particularly because less is demanded offensively from a front court player and, thus, poor offense in the front court is easier to cope with.

Patrick Beverly, Tony Allen, Shane Battier all come to mind as amazing defenders from the backcourt or wing. However, they will never have the acclaim as guys like Mutumbo, Wallace or Gobert.

If Ball is just a top defender, but stays at his current offensive level, he's in the ballpark of Rajon Rondo. That's a good career, but not someone memorable. To be one of the greats in this league, as a backcourt player, he needs to improve his individual offense, no matter how well he affects his team. Just the way it is. The good news is, because his ability to affect his team offensively is already so great, he doesn't really need to make many strides to get there.

Consider that Ball averaged 10/7/7 on 44% true shooting with elite D this season. Jason Kidd, by comparison, spent most of his best years essentially averaging around 15/9/7 on around 50% true shooting with similar elite D. That won't shooting won't pass mustard today. The standard for Zo is likely something around 16-18/9-11/6-8 on 53%+ TS, while keeping his D up. That requires a significant improvement in shooting - that happens, his PPG will naturally rise to that level. Its all attainable. Again, he's really not that far away from that already.


That's what my thinking from the very beginning. Is "a Rajon Rondo type" player good enough to be the starting PG on a team chasing a championship? If we stick with Lonzo, then we are confident he would improve his shooting but that's all speculation at this point. If he continues to struggle with his shooting and we decide to go in a different direction, it would set us back again.


The actual Rajon Rondo did win a championship as the starting point guard on a championship team in 2008/09. Over us too, arrgggh Celtics nightmares. Thank god we took revenge the next year.

So I am going to say YES, a Rondo type player is good enough to be the starting PG and win it all


Last edited by Vanquish on Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:44 pm    Post subject:

Vanquish wrote:
lakersfever714 wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Its easier to be a good defensive player than a good offensive players. Those players are actually easier to come by though, which is why offense is weighted more heavily. Now, once in a while, there comes a defensive player who is so good that their offense doesn't matter as much. To AH's point, that players is typically a front court player, particularly because less is demanded offensively from a front court player and, thus, poor offense in the front court is easier to cope with.

Patrick Beverly, Tony Allen, Shane Battier all come to mind as amazing defenders from the backcourt or wing. However, they will never have the acclaim as guys like Mutumbo, Wallace or Gobert.

If Ball is just a top defender, but stays at his current offensive level, he's in the ballpark of Rajon Rondo. That's a good career, but not someone memorable. To be one of the greats in this league, as a backcourt player, he needs to improve his individual offense, no matter how well he affects his team. Just the way it is. The good news is, because his ability to affect his team offensively is already so great, he doesn't really need to make many strides to get there.

Consider that Ball averaged 10/7/7 on 44% true shooting with elite D this season. Jason Kidd, by comparison, spent most of his best years essentially averaging around 15/9/7 on around 50% true shooting with similar elite D. That won't shooting won't pass mustard today. The standard for Zo is likely something around 16-18/9-11/6-8 on 53%+ TS, while keeping his D up. That requires a significant improvement in shooting - that happens, his PPG will naturally rise to that level. Its all attainable. Again, he's really not that far away from that already.


That's what my thinking from the very beginning. Is "a Rajon Rondo type" player good enough to be the starting PG on a team chasing a championship? If we stick with Lonzo, then we are confident he would improve his shooting but that's all speculation at this point. If he continues to struggle with his shooting and we decide to go in a different direction, it would set us back again.


The actual Rajon Rondo did win a championship as the starting point guard on a championship team in 2008/09. Over us too, arrgggh Celtics nightmares. Thank god we took revenge the next year.

So I am going to say YES, a Rando type is good enough to be the starting PG and win it all


I guess if we have PG13 and Lebron, then anything is possible.
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