OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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LakerSanity
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:52 pm    Post subject:

To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:24 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.


That has always been my argument against Lonzo. To win a title, Lonzo is likely your 3rd or 4th best player. You still need to find your 1st and 2nd best player, which makes him a luxury, but not a necessity to construct a championship quality team.

Remove Rondo from the Celtics and replace him with another PG and they still likely win a championship with KG, PP and Ray Allen.

If the Lakers were to sign PG13 or Kawhi & Lebron we are a championship contending team with Lonzo or Pat Beverly or Darren Collison.

I could see Kawhi & Ingram being a championship 1-2 combo or even PG13 & Ingram combo, but I just can't envision Lonzo and another star being a championship quality 1-2 combo given his limitations and ceiling.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:14 pm    Post subject:

Oh brother. I'll see everyone next season. Ya'll too much.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:20 pm    Post subject:

I found it surprising that Magic/Pelinka did not recommend for Lonzo to make adjustments to his shooting form. Not a major make over but bring it up higher and shoot from the left side of his face.

Going off memory I believe KD and Joe Johnson shoots with this form. I feel he could adapt to this change rather quickly and be effective.

Would like to hear feed back from KIROE.

Just a pet peeve but I don't like when Kuz and Lo compete on half court shots. I just feel this messes up their form and touch. I know it did when I played around shooting long distance.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:18 am    Post subject:

A JKidd ceiling or Rondo floor for Zo? Sounds about right.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:23 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.


The problems with your Rondo analogy are (1) it was a different era of the NBA, (2) it required three Hall of Famers to win the title, and (3) anyway, Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball (so far).
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:39 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.


The problems with your Rondo analogy are (1) it was a different era of the NBA, (2) it required three Hall of Famers to win the title, and (3) anyway, Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball (so far).


Also, Lonzo lacks the fiery attitude of Rondo (which is a good and bad thing for Rondo).

I think Lonzo will never cost us games if he gets his shooting together but also that he'll never elevate his play to take over games as well. I really like his even-keel personality though.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:50 am    Post subject:

LakerMindLA wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.


That has always been my argument against Lonzo. To win a title, Lonzo is likely your 3rd or 4th best player. You still need to find your 1st and 2nd best player, which makes him a luxury, but not a necessity to construct a championship quality team.

Remove Rondo from the Celtics and replace him with another PG and they still likely win a championship with KG, PP and Ray Allen.

If the Lakers were to sign PG13 or Kawhi & Lebron we are a championship contending team with Lonzo or Pat Beverly or Darren Collison.

I could see Kawhi & Ingram being a championship 1-2 combo or even PG13 & Ingram combo, but I just can't envision Lonzo and another star being a championship quality 1-2 combo given his limitations and ceiling.

Thought experiment: swap Fisher and Rondo for the 2008 championship series. Do the Celtics still win?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:51 am    Post subject:

jg77 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.


The problems with your Rondo analogy are (1) it was a different era of the NBA, (2) it required three Hall of Famers to win the title, and (3) anyway, Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball (so far).


Also, Lonzo lacks the fiery attitude of Rondo (which is a good and bad thing for Rondo).

I think Lonzo will never cost us games if he gets his shooting together but also that he'll never elevate his play to take over games as well. I really like his even-keel personality though.

I'd say he elevated his play to defeat the Suns, Wizards, and Spurs (x2) this season. And that's just off the top of my head.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:54 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.


The problems with your Rondo analogy are (1) it was a different era of the NBA, (2) it required three Hall of Famers to win the title, and (3) anyway, Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball (so far).

Rondo put up a .470 TS% and -1.5 OBPM as a rookie. Zo put up a .440 TS% and -0.8 BPM as a rookie.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:00 am    Post subject:

jg77 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.


The problems with your Rondo analogy are (1) it was a different era of the NBA, (2) it required three Hall of Famers to win the title, and (3) anyway, Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball (so far).


Also, Lonzo lacks the fiery attitude of Rondo (which is a good and bad thing for Rondo).

I think Lonzo will never cost us games if he gets his shooting together but also that he'll never elevate his play to take over games as well. I really like his even-keel personality though.


I guess someone missed the Spurs game.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:01 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.


The problems with your Rondo analogy are (1) it was a different era of the NBA, (2) it required three Hall of Famers to win the title, and (3) anyway, Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball (so far).

Rondo put up a .470 TS% and -1.5 OBPM as a rookie. Zo put up a .440 TS% and -0.8 BPM as a rookie.


That's irrelevant to what we're discussing. We aren't talking about Rondo as a rookie, and we aren't talking about what Ball might develop into.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:15 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.


The problems with your Rondo analogy are (1) it was a different era of the NBA, (2) it required three Hall of Famers to win the title, and (3) anyway, Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball (so far).

Rondo put up a .470 TS% and -1.5 OBPM as a rookie. Zo put up a .440 TS% and -0.8 BPM as a rookie.


That's irrelevant to what we're discussing. We aren't talking about Rondo as a rookie, and we aren't talking about what Ball might develop into.

How is it irrelevant if the only relevant data point we have for a Ball/Rondo comparison is their rookie seasons?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:18 am    Post subject:

Christopher Walken wrote:
al242 wrote:
Am I the only one who would prefer to trade Ball instead of Ingram to the Spurs for a deal centered around KL? I am starting to think we can have our 1-4 positions filled by forwards in interchangeable roles. I can envision this lineup next year

PG- Lebron
SG- Paul George
SF- Ingram
PF- Randle
C- Lopez

I'm super super confused here, you mentioned trading for KL and he's not in your starting lineup?


Oversight, I actually didnt mean to put Lebron in here. This is what I meant to write:

PG- Ingram
SG- Paul George
SF- Kawhi
PF- Randle
C- Lopez[/quote]
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:29 am    Post subject:

I don't think the Lakers will trade for KL if he is available....it's just going to cost too much, I think they would gamble and try and get him in FA....and will focus this year on players they can sign out right.

Randle is the big wild card obviously, do we sign, do we renounce, do work a sign and trade....I don't expect any movement of our young players and certainly not Ball, Kuzma, Hart or Ingram.


If we get no one the Lakers will probably load up with good players who don't have a great market like Lopez and KCP with 1 year deals and let the youth troops continue to grow
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:36 am    Post subject:

As an aside in the Rondo/Kidd/Rubio v. Ball comparison, I wanted to note that Ball has a legit jumpshot those other pass first PGs lacked at the same age. Now Ball needs to knock down his jumpers with much greater regularity and his form will never be pretty to look at, but Zo's jumpshot gives him a narrower window in which to get his shot off (off the catch or bounce) versus set-shooters like young Rondo, Rubio, and Kidd. If nothing else, it allows Zo to be a much more viable off-ball guard early in his career than any of the other three who had to have the ball in their hands to be effective.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:11 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.


The problems with your Rondo analogy are (1) it was a different era of the NBA, (2) it required three Hall of Famers to win the title, and (3) anyway, Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball (so far).

Rondo put up a .470 TS% and -1.5 OBPM as a rookie. Zo put up a .440 TS% and -0.8 BPM as a rookie.


That's irrelevant to what we're discussing. We aren't talking about Rondo as a rookie, and we aren't talking about what Ball might develop into.

How is it irrelevant if the only relevant data point we have for a Ball/Rondo comparison is their rookie seasons?


Go read my post on the last page and LS's comment a couple posts later. That's what we're talking about.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject:

Zo for KL would be a dream trade. Lakers should try this during the offseason
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.


The problems with your Rondo analogy are (1) it was a different era of the NBA, (2) it required three Hall of Famers to win the title, and (3) anyway, Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball (so far).


(1) - I took that into consideration; the lineup would just have to compensate for his lack of shooting. It could be done.
(2) - It all depends on who plays next to him. Those hall of famers were also close to the tail end of their careers. Put him next to Durant, Klay Thompson and Draymond Green, can they compete for a title? Probably.
(3) - I don't agree that Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball, but will concede it was close and believe next year it won't be. Still, the point was whether a young Rondo can win a title as the 3rd or 4th best player, not whether Ball could. The context in making my statement, however, was within the assumption that Ball is or will soon be just as good as Rondo, at a minimum. If he's eventually better than Rondo, then this discussion becomes moot.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:40 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.


The problems with your Rondo analogy are (1) it was a different era of the NBA, (2) it required three Hall of Famers to win the title, and (3) anyway, Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball (so far).


(1) - I took that into consideration; the lineup would just have to compensate for his lack of shooting. It could be done.
(2) - It all depends on who plays next to him. Those hall of famers were also close to the tail end of their careers. Put him next to Durant, Klay Thompson and Draymond Green, can they compete for a title? Probably.
(3) - I don't agree that Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball, but will concede it was close and believe next year it won't be. Still, the point was whether a young Rondo can win a title as the 3rd or 4th best player, not whether Ball could. The context in making my statement, however, was within the assumption that Ball is or will soon be just as good as Rondo, at a minimum. If he's eventually better than Rondo, then this discussion becomes moot.


Rondo was definitively a better offensive player than Ball, he was hell of crafty and used to make the most insane layups. I trust Lonzo's 3pt shot more than his layup ability from what I witnessed last year
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:40 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
To win a title, Rajon Ronda (especially a young one) can be one your 3rd or 4th best player. However, I expect and anticipate Ball being much better than that.


The problems with your Rondo analogy are (1) it was a different era of the NBA, (2) it required three Hall of Famers to win the title, and (3) anyway, Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball (so far).

Rondo put up a .470 TS% and -1.5 OBPM as a rookie. Zo put up a .440 TS% and -0.8 BPM as a rookie.


That's irrelevant to what we're discussing. We aren't talking about Rondo as a rookie, and we aren't talking about what Ball might develop into.

How is it irrelevant if the only relevant data point we have for a Ball/Rondo comparison is their rookie seasons?


Go read my post on the last page and LS's comment a couple posts later. That's what we're talking about.

Your clearly inaccurate third point is what I was responding to. But LS addressed it below in a lengthier post, so nvm.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
(3) - I don't agree that Rondo was a better offensive player than Ball, but will concede it was close and believe next year it won't be. Still, the point was whether a young Rondo can win a title as the 3rd or 4th best player, not whether Ball could. The context in making my statement, however, was within the assumption that Ball is or will soon be just as good as Rondo, at a minimum. If he's eventually better than Rondo, then this discussion becomes moot.


Rondo was -0.1 OBPM in the title season for Boston, and he was positive for the rest of his years with the Celtics. He was +2.2 in the playoffs during the title year and was +2.0 the following year.

As for what Ball will do next year, that's beside the point. We all want Ball to improve. I'm addressing the idea that Ball is already a success due to his defense. I am encouraged by his defense, because I think that it is a major milestone for a player to perform one major skill at a high level in the NBA. If Ball is good enough to play high quality NBA defense, then there is reason to expect that he will be able to elevate other parts of his game to a legitimate NBA level.

But defense alone won't cut it. If Ball turns into another Rondo (which is a level that he has not yet attained), he would be a borderline bust. Ball was a #2 pick. Rondo was considered to be something of a liability at the end of the MJ/Kobe era when he was young, and he has been a vagabond in the Curry/Harden era. As he has shown in the first couple games against Portland, he can still be effective. But his skill set isn't something that teams value in this era.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
I found it surprising that Magic/Pelinka did not recommend for Lonzo to make adjustments to his shooting form. Not a major make over but bring it up higher and shoot from the left side of his face.

Going off memory I believe KD and Joe Johnson shoots with this form. I feel he could adapt to this change rather quickly and be effective.

Would like to hear feed back from KIROE.

Just a pet peeve but I don't like when Kuz and Lo compete on half court shots. I just feel this messes up their form and touch. I know it did when I played around shooting long distance.


Ya a lot, a lot of players do the slight left side of the head form. KD, Joe Johnson, Oladipo, Marc Gasol.
Here's Dipo using the slight left side form, 15secs into vid. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bc0nax0Hjpr/

I don't know how long it would take to adapt to a big adjustment in form..it depends on each player..and usually it takes a lot of game reps despite thousands of practice-reps, because game-speed jumping makes your form different....
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
From the Lee Jenkins article:

Quote:
Ball’s jump shot was ragged, but his rookie numbers were almost identical to Kidd’s, and the Lakers operated even faster than the Warriors. “When you’re out there with Zo, you get the reason for the hype,” Kuzma says. “He’s not going to wow you with scoring. But if you’re a true basketball fan, you appreciate the beauty of what he does. He gets a rebound, you run ahead, and he throws it like 60 feet without dribbling.
a coaches dream. and a scorers best friend.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Practice wrote:
deal wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
Until Lonzo proves he's not useless offensively, he has no right to be used in the same sentence as Magic, Curry or "generational."


He already has but I’m not surprised you refuse to acknowledge it or are incapable of noticing it.


Lonzo is a liabilty with that terrible shot right now. This off season
he needs to work on;

- changing his shot, he can practice that pretzel shot to death but
it sucks..change it, period
- practice his new shot a billion times
- gain 20 lbs of muscle & work on his body

We already know that the Lakers don’t want him to change his shot and I’m pretty sure it’s impossible to put on 20 pounds of muscle over the course of ~6 months.

Didn’t Kobe do just that, gained 20lbs or muscle? I remember Corey Magette got all impressed and all
and it ended up messing with his knees. which is why he went back to skinny kobe to be quicker rather than stronger. but buff kobe was a different type of beast. I liked both quick kobe and buff kobe.
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