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epak
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 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:30 am Post subject: |
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Could we say that Kidd with his game unchanged would not be all-nba today?
Sure we can say that. And most likely.
But can we say, Kidd would be good enough that he would actually change his game to fit today? I think that's the better discussion to have. And I think he could. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | Wall can’t shoot, Simmons can’t shoot, Iggy and Draymond(who handle a ton of PG responsibility) can’t shoot, Rubio can’t shoot, Westbrook can’t shoot, Rondo can’t shoot.
And those guys have been doing just fine this postseason. Its not imagining to believe a 10 time all star, 9 time all nba defense, 5 time all nba first team player would remain an all nba player today. It takes imagination to think he wouldn’t.
But can we discuss what’s actually going on here? Why is everybody so infatuated with devaluing Ball that they have to devalue a hall of famer who plays similar to him? |
So basically you jumped into a discussion that you didn't understand and now are trying to find a way out of it. Okay. It you want to understand the discussion, just go back a few pages and get caught up. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | Could we say that Kidd with his game unchanged would not be all-nba today?
Sure we can say that. And most likely.
But can we say, Kidd would be good enough that he would actually change his game to fit today? I think that's the better discussion to have. And I think he could. |
If we get into that sort of a hypothetical discussion, there can be no right or wrong answers. You can always imagine Jason Kidd changing his game and becoming, say, Russell Westbrook with a higher IQ. My personal view (which, like yours, can be neither right nor wrong) is that the hypothetical Kidd would have started working on his outside shot at an earlier age and that he could have had a peak season in which he touched the all-NBA plateau. Kidd was a highly competitive guy, after all. However, the Jason Kidd who lived in the real world did not develop an outside shot until his mid-30s. |
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epak
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | epak wrote: | Could we say that Kidd with his game unchanged would not be all-nba today?
Sure we can say that. And most likely.
But can we say, Kidd would be good enough that he would actually change his game to fit today? I think that's the better discussion to have. And I think he could. |
If we get into that sort of a hypothetical discussion, there can be no right or wrong answers. You can always imagine Jason Kidd changing his game and becoming, say, Russell Westbrook with a higher IQ. My personal view (which, like yours, can be neither right nor wrong) is that the hypothetical Kidd would have started working on his outside shot at an earlier age and that he could have had a peak season in which he touched the all-NBA plateau. Kidd was a highly competitive guy, after all. However, the Jason Kidd who lived in the real world did not develop an outside shot until his mid-30s. |
True true. |
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Mamba Mentality
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| With all this talk about Kidd, I guess Magic isn't as good as the guards in the current NBA with his career stat line of 19, 11, 7. Players play to how the game is played at that time. With it being more face paced now, you don't think Kidd and Magic could adjust to this? Btw, if the debate is on sheer stats alone on how they produced, then no Kidd would not be All-NBA. But I agree with an earlier post mentioning that his stats would be just as inflated as the players today if he were playing in this era. |
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BynumForThree
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamba Mentality wrote: | | With all this talk about Kidd, I guess Magic isn't as good as the guards in the current NBA with his career stat line of 19, 11, 7. Players play to how the game is played at that time. With it being more face paced now, you don't think Kidd and Magic could adjust to this? Btw, if the debate is on sheer stats alone on how they produced, then no Kidd would not be All-NBA. But I agree with an earlier post mentioning that his stats would be just as inflated as the players today if he were playing in this era. |
Define "inflated" because pretty sure we could call Magic's numbers "inflated" considering he played in the weakest era defensively of modern basketball.
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Mamba Mentality
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | Mamba Mentality wrote: | | With all this talk about Kidd, I guess Magic isn't as good as the guards in the current NBA with his career stat line of 19, 11, 7. Players play to how the game is played at that time. With it being more face paced now, you don't think Kidd and Magic could adjust to this? Btw, if the debate is on sheer stats alone on how they produced, then no Kidd would not be All-NBA. But I agree with an earlier post mentioning that his stats would be just as inflated as the players today if he were playing in this era. |
Define "inflated" because pretty sure we could call Magic's numbers "inflated" considering he played in the weakest era defensively of modern basketball. |
The faster the game, the inflated the stats. That's a great point about Magic. that can definitely be debated. But just for some perspective, the 2006 Suns team led by Nash would rank as a bottom 3 team in pace this season. That's mean's everyone plays fast, hence more possessions, and hence more points and assists. A lot of it has to do with more emphasis on the 3 PT shot and less defense. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | Wall can’t shoot, Simmons can’t shoot, Iggy and Draymond(who handle a ton of PG responsibility) can’t shoot, Rubio can’t shoot, Westbrook can’t shoot, Rondo can’t shoot.
And those guys have been doing just fine this postseason. Its not imagining to believe a 10 time all star, 9 time all nba defense, 5 time all nba first team player would remain an all nba player today. It takes imagination to think he wouldn’t.
But can we discuss what’s actually going on here? Why is everybody so infatuated with devaluing Ball that they have to devalue a hall of famer who plays similar to him? |
So basically you jumped into a discussion that you didn't understand and now are trying to find a way out of it. Okay. It you want to understand the discussion, just go back a few pages and get caught up. |
Take it easy bud. The discussion came from you saying he wouldn’t be all-NBA today. You use stats to support this despite the fact that guards stats are inflated these days. Then you started saying he couldn’t make all NBA now cause he can’t shoot, I provided examples of successful PGs who can’t shoot. They all won’t be all-NBA players because there are very few PGs in the NBA at any given time as good as Kidd. The one PG of his caliber who can’t shoot is Westbrook, and he’s a perennial all-nba player. The other guys aren’t because despite being similar to Kidd in shooting ability, they are far worse at the other facets of the game. Just like every guard these days, his numbers would be inflated in the modern NBA. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamba Mentality wrote: | | With all this talk about Kidd, I guess Magic isn't as good as the guards in the current NBA with his career stat line of 19, 11, 7. Players play to how the game is played at that time. With it being more face paced now, you don't think Kidd and Magic could adjust to this? Btw, if the debate is on sheer stats alone on how they produced, then no Kidd would not be All-NBA. But I agree with an earlier post mentioning that his stats would be just as inflated as the players today if he were playing in this era. |
Nope Magic wouldn’t be all-NBA cause he can’t shoot... well at least that’s what I’m being told. |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | I think you want Zo to get into the 16-18 PPG range minimum. I don't think the 18-20PPG range is necessary. What's more important is his 3pt%, his % at the rim and his FT%. If he can get those three up, then everything else falls into place and the scoring numbers naturally appear.
In his prime years, give me averages of at least 16/9/6 at a 53%+ TS% with the D he's already show, and we're good in my mind. |
thats all i'm asking for LS. nothing over the top. raise those percentages and we're golden. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamba Mentality wrote: | | With all this talk about Kidd, I guess Magic isn't as good as the guards in the current NBA with his career stat line of 19, 11, 7. Players play to how the game is played at that time. With it being more face paced now, you don't think Kidd and Magic could adjust to this? Btw, if the debate is on sheer stats alone on how they produced, then no Kidd would not be All-NBA. But I agree with an earlier post mentioning that his stats would be just as inflated as the players today if he were playing in this era. |
Magic played at a higher pace than NBA teams do now
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | Wall can’t shoot, Simmons can’t shoot, Iggy and Draymond(who handle a ton of PG responsibility) can’t shoot, Rubio can’t shoot, Westbrook can’t shoot, Rondo can’t shoot.
And those guys have been doing just fine this postseason. Its not imagining to believe a 10 time all star, 9 time all nba defense, 5 time all nba first team player would remain an all nba player today. It takes imagination to think he wouldn’t.
But can we discuss what’s actually going on here? Why is everybody so infatuated with devaluing Ball that they have to devalue a hall of famer who plays similar to him? |
So basically you jumped into a discussion that you didn't understand and now are trying to find a way out of it. Okay. It you want to understand the discussion, just go back a few pages and get caught up. |
Take it easy bud. The discussion came from you saying he wouldn’t be all-NBA today. You use stats to support this despite the fact that guards stats are inflated these days. Then you started saying he couldn’t make all NBA now cause he can’t shoot, I provided examples of successful PGs who can’t shoot. They all won’t be all-NBA players because there are very few PGs in the NBA at any given time as good as Kidd. The one PG of his caliber who can’t shoot is Westbrook, and he’s a perennial all-nba player. The other guys aren’t because despite being similar to Kidd in shooting ability, they are far worse at the other facets of the game. Just like every guard these days, his numbers would be inflated in the modern NBA. |
Same comment. You are missing the context of the discussion. If someone scores 30 ppg, they are not comparable to Jason Kidd. Volume and efficiency are both important. The best PGs (Curry, Harden) are high volume and high efficiency. Westbrook is high volume but not particularly efficient (Kobe was similar, though a little more efficient). Kidd was low volume and low efficiency. In the current conditions of the NBA, I have a hard time imagining a player like that being all-NBA at the PG position. |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Mamba Mentality wrote: | | With all this talk about Kidd, I guess Magic isn't as good as the guards in the current NBA with his career stat line of 19, 11, 7. Players play to how the game is played at that time. With it being more face paced now, you don't think Kidd and Magic could adjust to this? Btw, if the debate is on sheer stats alone on how they produced, then no Kidd would not be All-NBA. But I agree with an earlier post mentioning that his stats would be just as inflated as the players today if he were playing in this era. |
Magic played at a higher pace than NBA teams do now |
Magic played at a higher pace than SOME teams do now. The 88 Lakers pace was 99.1. Our squad this year was at 100.3. Even a slow team like Memphis today plays at 95 clip. League average this season was 97.3. Magic's 88' squad would be among the faster teams in the league today but doesn't resemble anything close to an outlier in terms of pace.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | Wall can’t shoot, Simmons can’t shoot, Iggy and Draymond(who handle a ton of PG responsibility) can’t shoot, Rubio can’t shoot, Westbrook can’t shoot, Rondo can’t shoot.
And those guys have been doing just fine this postseason. Its not imagining to believe a 10 time all star, 9 time all nba defense, 5 time all nba first team player would remain an all nba player today. It takes imagination to think he wouldn’t.
But can we discuss what’s actually going on here? Why is everybody so infatuated with devaluing Ball that they have to devalue a hall of famer who plays similar to him? |
So basically you jumped into a discussion that you didn't understand and now are trying to find a way out of it. Okay. It you want to understand the discussion, just go back a few pages and get caught up. |
Take it easy bud. The discussion came from you saying he wouldn’t be all-NBA today. You use stats to support this despite the fact that guards stats are inflated these days. Then you started saying he couldn’t make all NBA now cause he can’t shoot, I provided examples of successful PGs who can’t shoot. They all won’t be all-NBA players because there are very few PGs in the NBA at any given time as good as Kidd. The one PG of his caliber who can’t shoot is Westbrook, and he’s a perennial all-nba player. The other guys aren’t because despite being similar to Kidd in shooting ability, they are far worse at the other facets of the game. Just like every guard these days, his numbers would be inflated in the modern NBA. |
Same comment. You are missing the context of the discussion. If someone scores 30 ppg, they are not comparable to Jason Kidd. Volume and efficiency are both important. The best PGs (Curry, Harden) are high volume and high efficiency. Westbrook is high volume but not particularly efficient (Kobe was similar, though a little more efficient). Kidd was low volume and low efficiency. In the current conditions of the NBA, I have a hard time imagining a player like that being all-NBA at the PG position. |
You’re acting as if your opinion is more valid than the facts of Kidd’s career. The facts are he is a Hall of Famer who was all-NBA 5 times at a position where the rules have been changed to make it easier for and plays at a pace that would benefit him. He doesn’t fit in your preconceived notion of what a PG needs to be. Have a more open mind and I think you would see the flaws in your opinion. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Mamba Mentality wrote: | | With all this talk about Kidd, I guess Magic isn't as good as the guards in the current NBA with his career stat line of 19, 11, 7. Players play to how the game is played at that time. With it being more face paced now, you don't think Kidd and Magic could adjust to this? Btw, if the debate is on sheer stats alone on how they produced, then no Kidd would not be All-NBA. But I agree with an earlier post mentioning that his stats would be just as inflated as the players today if he were playing in this era. |
Magic played at a higher pace than NBA teams do now |
Magic played at a higher pace than SOME teams do now. The 88 Lakers pace was 99.1. Our squad this year was at 100.3. Even a slow team like Memphis today plays at 95 clip. League average this season was 97.3. Magic's 88' squad would be among the faster teams in the league today but doesn't resemble anything close to an outlier in terms of pace. |
From the time that Magic joined the Lakers in 1979 through 1989 the Laker pace was over 100 with the exception of the 88 team. Most of those seasons they were over 101.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Mamba Mentality wrote: | | With all this talk about Kidd, I guess Magic isn't as good as the guards in the current NBA with his career stat line of 19, 11, 7. Players play to how the game is played at that time. With it being more face paced now, you don't think Kidd and Magic could adjust to this? Btw, if the debate is on sheer stats alone on how they produced, then no Kidd would not be All-NBA. But I agree with an earlier post mentioning that his stats would be just as inflated as the players today if he were playing in this era. |
Magic played at a higher pace than NBA teams do now |
Magic played at a higher pace than SOME teams do now. The 88 Lakers pace was 99.1. Our squad this year was at 100.3. Even a slow team like Memphis today plays at 95 clip. League average this season was 97.3. Magic's 88' squad would be among the faster teams in the league today but doesn't resemble anything close to an outlier in terms of pace. |
From the time that Magic joined the Lakers in 1979 through 1989 the Laker pace was over 100 with the exception of the 88 team. Most of those seasons they were over 101. |
Do you believe Magic would have similar success to what he had in the modern NBA? |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | You’re acting as if your opinion is more valid than the facts of Kidd’s career. The facts are he is a Hall of Famer who was all-NBA 5 times at a position where the rules have been changed to make it easier for and plays at a pace that would benefit him. He doesn’t fit in your preconceived notion of what a PG needs to be. Have a more open mind and I think you would see the flaws in your opinion. |
You seem unwilling to grapple with the topic under discussion. Cheers. |
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silkwilkes
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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the 88 squad played with a legit 5 in Kareem. We slowed it up in the half court and posted up Kareem or Magic. You could hand check back then so it wasn't feasible to kick and drive... or b line to the rim (not technicals for hard fouls).
Different game. Impossible to compare. Best you can do is compare speed relative to the average speed of other teams during the same period. The Lakers were incredibly fast in 88.
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silkwilkes
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Could you imagine Magic playing a league without a hand check and no legit rim protection???? He would be a triple double average player... 30/20/10 lol.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Mamba Mentality wrote: | | With all this talk about Kidd, I guess Magic isn't as good as the guards in the current NBA with his career stat line of 19, 11, 7. Players play to how the game is played at that time. With it being more face paced now, you don't think Kidd and Magic could adjust to this? Btw, if the debate is on sheer stats alone on how they produced, then no Kidd would not be All-NBA. But I agree with an earlier post mentioning that his stats would be just as inflated as the players today if he were playing in this era. |
Magic played at a higher pace than NBA teams do now |
In addition, Magic played in a very different paradigm. Three point shooting was exotic for most of his career, and low post scoring was prized. To a large extent, the league evolved as a reaction to the high octane offenses of the ‘80s. The Pistons and the Riley era Knicks prized defensive length and slowdown tactics, which threatened to choke the life out of the game.
Having said that, Mamba raises a fair point. However, while Magic was not a volume scorer like, say, Westbrook, his career TS% was .610. He’d be fine in the modern era with that sort of production. In fact, I think he’d be a SF in the modern paradigm. This is not because he couldn’t play PG. It is because we now accept SFs as ball handlers (think Lebron and Ingram). ‘80s basketball doctrine was more rigid, which is why it was radical when Ralph Sampson wanted to played outside the post. |
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epak
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| silkwilkes wrote: | | Could you imagine Magic playing a league without a hand check and no legit rim protection???? He would be a triple double average player... 30/20/10 lol. |
I would think he'd be a better Ben Simmons?
With personality  |
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deal
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Don't know why there is a discussion about Magic, but, he was the
best PG in the NBA and he would b so today as well..
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MJST
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| silkwilkes wrote: | | Could you imagine Magic playing a league without a hand check and no legit rim protection???? He would be a triple double average player... 30/20/10 lol. |
It'd be a league where zone defense was allowed too.
But Magic would revolutionize the 1 spot and the 5 spot.
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danzag
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Mamba Mentality wrote: | | With all this talk about Kidd, I guess Magic isn't as good as the guards in the current NBA with his career stat line of 19, 11, 7. Players play to how the game is played at that time. With it being more face paced now, you don't think Kidd and Magic could adjust to this? Btw, if the debate is on sheer stats alone on how they produced, then no Kidd would not be All-NBA. But I agree with an earlier post mentioning that his stats would be just as inflated as the players today if he were playing in this era. |
Magic played at a higher pace than NBA teams do now |
Magic played at a higher pace than SOME teams do now. The 88 Lakers pace was 99.1. Our squad this year was at 100.3. Even a slow team like Memphis today plays at 95 clip. League average this season was 97.3. Magic's 88' squad would be among the faster teams in the league today but doesn't resemble anything close to an outlier in terms of pace. |
From the time that Magic joined the Lakers in 1979 through 1989 the Laker pace was over 100 with the exception of the 88 team. Most of those seasons they were over 101. |
Do you believe Magic would have similar success to what he had in the modern NBA? |
Magic is the greatest basketball player ever, so yes.
He was running and gunning before there was run-and-gun. |
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pio2u
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| silkwilkes wrote: | Could you imagine Magic playing a league without a hand check and no legit rim protection???? He would be a triple double average player... 30/20/20  |
FIFY  |
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