OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:12 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
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But, anyone saying Lonzo needs to work on his vision this offseason? Or last offseason?


It's more like, he has the gift of vision, and it's a natural talent. He took all of HS and NCAA to understand what to do when he makes those reads.

Quote:

Can you think of a player that actually improved on their vision after they came into the league?


How big of a list do you want?

Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett

That's about 5 bigmen off the top of my head.

Point guards... Hm.

Stephen Curry
James Harden
Russell Westbrook. Can't just rack up a bunch of assists without knowing who is open, even if it's just drive and kick. Need to see that before it happens.
Donovan Mitchell (just within the season)
Terry Rozier

Even Kris Dunn is on his way.

Wings? That's a massive list, so I'll just say Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady.

About James Harden. Assist % can help indicate how well a player finds the open man, but it says nothing about how advanced the reads are.

But watching that assist % from rookie year to end of last year, is just absurd.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html


Yeah, if Westbrook is someone who's considered to have vision then I'm going to bow out of this conversation.
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

But, anyone saying Lonzo needs to work on his vision this offseason? Or last offseason?


It's more like, he has the gift of vision, and it's a natural talent. He took all of HS and NCAA to understand what to do when he makes those reads.

Quote:

Can you think of a player that actually improved on their vision after they came into the league?


How big of a list do you want?

Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett

That's about 5 bigmen off the top of my head.

Point guards... Hm.

Stephen Curry
James Harden
Russell Westbrook. Can't just rack up a bunch of assists without knowing who is open, even if it's just drive and kick. Need to see that before it happens.
Donovan Mitchell (just within the season)
Terry Rozier

Even Kris Dunn is on his way.

Wings? That's a massive list, so I'll just say Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady.

About James Harden. Assist % can help indicate how well a player finds the open man, but it says nothing about how advanced the reads are.

But watching that assist % from rookie year to end of last year, is just absurd.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html


Yeah, if Westbrook is someone who's considered to have vision then I'm going to bow out of this conversation.


Go back and watch him at UCLA. His improvement is undeniable.
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epak
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject:

C'mon, he's bowing out. Let him be
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
C'mon, he's bowing out. Let him be


I think vision is being confused with decision making.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
Working with a skills trainer will be huge for Lonzo this summer. Excited to see his development going into next year.


He's doing a US Tour promoting his new album.
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governator
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 4:29 am    Post subject:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/brett-brown-says-ben-simmons-120049467.html

Should Lonzo change his form too? Felt like it was just in his head, had decent stretch post all star, just need to speed up the release
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giordan0
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 4:49 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
The issue isnít how Lonzo prepared it is with whom. His dad might have been fine for high school but he needs a professional for the NBA. Not only bball skills but also work on his conditioning, last season showed us that he isnít close to being physically prepared for the NBA.



Agree, I'm not really enthused with having his manager DMo (Darren Moore. ex-USC) as his trainer. I'd rather he work out this summer with a proven NBA level trainer who could compliment his current skillset.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 5:49 am    Post subject:

giordan0 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
The issue isnít how Lonzo prepared it is with whom. His dad might have been fine for high school but he needs a professional for the NBA. Not only bball skills but also work on his conditioning, last season showed us that he isnít close to being physically prepared for the NBA.



Agree, I'm not really enthused with having his manager DMo (Darren Moore. ex-USC) as his trainer. I'd rather he work out this summer with a proven NBA level trainer who could compliment his current skillset.


Agreed.

Magic and Rob should have made sure that Zo is working out with the best this summer. You can't tell him this is the biggest summer of your career, and then leave him surrounded with anything but the best.
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diando
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:01 am    Post subject:

Zo needs to work on his footwork and maybe add a Tony Parker like spin move to his arsenal. His footwork will help with his shot making.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
epak wrote:
C'mon, he's bowing out. Let him be


I think vision is being confused with decision making.
vision is decision making in basketball speak. whats the use in having great vision if you dont make the right decision? nothing.

and guess what? you would never know if say westbrook had good or less than good vision until you saw the decision he made. you can't see what they see. you can only see the result of what they do after they've seen or not have seen something. thats how we assume "why he has eyes behind his head." how did we know this? because he threw a no look pass to someone he never looked at.

if he never threw that pass we dont know if he knew the guy was there or not. all we would know is, the pass never was thrown to that guy. and thats all that matters.

westbrook has gotten better from his days in college. but overall, westbrook has B- vision/decision making ability. and he's a superstar pg. that is pretty bad if you as me for his position and his stature.
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splashmtn
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:57 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
You donít just get that level of IQ and vision. It comes from playing TONS of basketball. Reps and experience play a huge part in it even though some of it is god given. You donít gain that level of comfortablity and creativity with the ball without being in the gym playing the game constantly.


Doesn't every prospect play TONS of basketball? He played high school and AAU, same as everyone else? Or are you saying Lonzo played more basketball than other players?


BigGameHames wrote:
Should he have played less live action and been more focused on individual skills training growing up? Probably but arenít we nitpicking quite a bit considering he was drafted 2nd overall? Its time for him to focus on that now, when itís more apparent what he needs to work on to succeed.


No one's nitpicking. It's a question.

The whole pt is to improve as a basketball player. Everyone is saying this summer is very important for Lonzo to work on his game.

People have a list of what he needs to work on this summer. Is it not valid to wonder what he's been working on in past summers?

Who knows, maybe he's a really hard worker during the offseason but results are slow to come.

If that's the case, then results might be slow to come this offseason as well.

Or, maybe he hasn't been working on his weaknesses during the past summers because they haven't been weaknesses against HS and college competition but they are weaknesses now. So he'll work on them now. Maybe that's the case.

If that's the case, then that's kind of a lack of foresight either from his father, his coaches, his trainer. Someone could have told him that what works vs. HS and college competition probably is not enough vs. NBA level competition.


Yes that wouldnít shock me. Iím assuming he scrimmaged/played live action more while other guys were with skills trainers more. I doubt he was in the gym less compared to other prospects of his age/caliber. Seems like the Ball way, right or wrong judging by what we know. Run hills, get shots up, and play ball.

Nobody knows exactly what will be their weaknesses before they become weaknesses on the court. Finishing, outside shooting werenít weaknesses till the pros. Ball handling and FT shooting werenít weaknesses till college. Thatís why most if not all players go through an adjustment period when they move up a level.
I think you're right about zo and the balls. less skills training and more workout and go hoop. then let your game become what it is. problem with this is you end up with missing skills like finishing in traffic at the rim vs better comp.
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
You donít just get that level of IQ and vision. It comes from playing TONS of basketball. Reps and experience play a huge part in it even though some of it is god given. You donít gain that level of comfortablity and creativity with the ball without being in the gym playing the game constantly.


Doesn't every prospect play TONS of basketball? He played high school and AAU, same as everyone else? Or are you saying Lonzo played more basketball than other players?


BigGameHames wrote:
Should he have played less live action and been more focused on individual skills training growing up? Probably but arenít we nitpicking quite a bit considering he was drafted 2nd overall? Its time for him to focus on that now, when itís more apparent what he needs to work on to succeed.


No one's nitpicking. It's a question.

The whole pt is to improve as a basketball player. Everyone is saying this summer is very important for Lonzo to work on his game.

People have a list of what he needs to work on this summer. Is it not valid to wonder what he's been working on in past summers?

Who knows, maybe he's a really hard worker during the offseason but results are slow to come.

If that's the case, then results might be slow to come this offseason as well.

Or, maybe he hasn't been working on his weaknesses during the past summers because they haven't been weaknesses against HS and college competition but they are weaknesses now. So he'll work on them now. Maybe that's the case.

If that's the case, then that's kind of a lack of foresight either from his father, his coaches, his trainer. Someone could have told him that what works vs. HS and college competition probably is not enough vs. NBA level competition.


Yes that wouldnít shock me. Iím assuming he scrimmaged/played live action more while other guys were with skills trainers more. I doubt he was in the gym less compared to other prospects of his age/caliber. Seems like the Ball way, right or wrong judging by what we know. Run hills, get shots up, and play ball.

Nobody knows exactly what will be their weaknesses before they become weaknesses on the court. Finishing, outside shooting werenít weaknesses till the pros. Ball handling and FT shooting werenít weaknesses till college. Thatís why most if not all players go through an adjustment period when they move up a level.
I think you're right about zo and the balls. less skills training and more workout and go hoop. then let your game become what it is. problem with this is you end up with missing skills like finishing in traffic at the rim vs better comp.


Yea I wasnít saying itís right or wrong. I donít think thereís anything wrong with it through HS but once you get to college and pros, you gotta get a more qualified skills trainer. Hard to argue with a strategy that got the family EXACTLY what they wanted though.
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Endless3D
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 8:34 am    Post subject:

DMO gotta stick to being a ball family/BBB manager and let someone else train Lonzo.
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22
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject:

Is it fact or are we all speculating?

If DMO is still Zoís trainer I donít like what Zo projects to be unless DMO went around and learned a lot more stuff during the season (unlikely).

Zo needs an NBA proven skills trainer, dietician, and strength and conditioning coach if he wants to get to the best in NBA level.

Kid is naturally gifted! But itís gonna take some discipline to go from eating bowls of cheese and shooting below 50% from the line to get to where he wants to go and where we desperately need him to be
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject:

22 wrote:
Is it fact or are we all speculating?

If DMO is still Zoís trainer I donít like what Zo projects to be unless DMO went around and learned a lot more stuff during the season (unlikely).

Zo needs an NBA proven skills trainer, dietician, and strength and conditioning coach if he wants to get to the best in NBA level.

Kid is naturally gifted! But itís gonna take some discipline to go from eating bowls of cheese and shooting below 50% from the line to get to where he wants to go and where we desperately need him to be


Iíd say itís educated speculation. He definitely still works out with him sometimes. Likely goes or will go to other guys too though.
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22
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
22 wrote:
Is it fact or are we all speculating?

If DMO is still Zoís trainer I donít like what Zo projects to be unless DMO went around and learned a lot more stuff during the season (unlikely).

Zo needs an NBA proven skills trainer, dietician, and strength and conditioning coach if he wants to get to the best in NBA level.

Kid is naturally gifted! But itís gonna take some discipline to go from eating bowls of cheese and shooting below 50% from the line to get to where he wants to go and where we desperately need him to be


Iíd say itís educated speculation. He definitely still works out with him sometimes. Likely goes or will go to other guys too though.


I think itís fine then as long as heís getting the best training from other too. Then DMO can emulate what the other guys are doing too
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justsomelakerfan
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject:

Who's Dmo?
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22
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:02 pm    Post subject:

justsomelakerfan wrote:
Who's Dmo?
his friend/trainer/manager
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watchME
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject:

Maybe Iím bad at reading people but why do i get the feeling he feels entitled? As if he is already good enough? I used to feel the same way about dangelo.

Also he should change his shot ASAP. If he doesnít and still continue to shoot poorly I donít see a reason to keep starting him.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:39 pm    Post subject:

Lonzo Ball was name dropped during a date scene in the new Karate Kid series on YouTube RED.
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 3:01 pm    Post subject:

watchME wrote:
Maybe Iím bad at reading people but why do i get the feeling he feels entitled? As if he is already good enough? I used to feel the same way about dangelo.

Also he should change his shot ASAP. If he doesnít and still continue to shoot poorly I donít see a reason to keep starting him.


I donít think he should change his shot in any significant way but I also donít think heíll continue to shoot poorly.
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Jsthornton7
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 3:26 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
watchME wrote:
Maybe Iím bad at reading people but why do i get the feeling he feels entitled? As if he is already good enough? I used to feel the same way about dangelo.

Also he should change his shot ASAP. If he doesnít and still continue to shoot poorly I donít see a reason to keep starting him.


I donít think he should change his shot in any significant way but I also donít think heíll continue to shoot poorly.


I care way more about his free throw form right now than his in game shot form. That definitely needs to be worked on way more. He is completely out of rhythm.
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Fortysixn2
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject:

watchME wrote:
Maybe Iím bad at reading people but why do i get the feeling he feels entitled? As if he is already good enough? I used to feel the same way about dangelo.

Also he should change his shot ASAP. If he doesnít and still continue to shoot poorly I donít see a reason to keep starting him.


There is no evidence to support that he feels entitled. He has admitted that he needs to work on things, dudeís personality is just very plain and he doesnít show any emotion. Itís easy to make a lack of personality seem like anything you want it to be.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject:

Jsthornton7 wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
watchME wrote:
Maybe Iím bad at reading people but why do i get the feeling he feels entitled? As if he is already good enough? I used to feel the same way about dangelo.

Also he should change his shot ASAP. If he doesnít and still continue to shoot poorly I donít see a reason to keep starting him.


I donít think he should change his shot in any significant way but I also donít think heíll continue to shoot poorly.


I care way more about his free throw form right now than his in game shot form. That definitely needs to be worked on way more. He is completely out of rhythm.


I care way more about the shots that he takes about 10 times more often than free throws.
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Jsthornton7
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject:

I understand that the type of shot he is taking will cause his form to suffer, but I think that is something that is situationally based. Better shot selection will hopefully lead to improved results. Iím not expecting him to dramatically alter his shooting form in anyway this offseason.

A free throw is the same shot everytime and his shot mechanics just looked way out of sync and looking into those issues should really be a priority if attacking the rim/finishing in traffic and trying to focus more on having a score first mentality are really offseason priorities.
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