OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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King Randle
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:49 am    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:
Luke is coaching for his job.

If he is playing Rondo over Ball down the stretch it is because he thinks it leads to a better chance of winning the game.

I am on board with playing to win, development time was the last five years, it is time to be big boys now and get back to the playoffs, not work on some kind of massive multi-year player development plan.


You're spot on Lanny. Luke is definitely playing for his job and is going with who he believes will win games down the stretch. Whoever is playing best down the stretch is going to end the games.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:50 am    Post subject:

King Randle wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Luke is coaching for his job.

If he is playing Rondo over Ball down the stretch it is because he thinks it leads to a better chance of winning the game.

I am on board with playing to win, development time was the last five years, it is time to be big boys now and get back to the playoffs, not work on some kind of massive multi-year player development plan.


You're spot on Lanny. Luke is definitely playing for his job and is going with who he believes will win games down the stretch. Whoever is playing best down the stretch is going to end the games.


And Rose was absolutely torching Rondo at the end of games and just shooting over him. Yes, Lonzo was getting roasted too but I would have put Lonzo out there (17 straight minutes for Rondo at the end) to try to stop Rose a bit more with his size.
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Jesusdelonla
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
King Randle wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Luke is coaching for his job.

If he is playing Rondo over Ball down the stretch it is because he thinks it leads to a better chance of winning the game.

I am on board with playing to win, development time was the last five years, it is time to be big boys now and get back to the playoffs, not work on some kind of massive multi-year player development plan.


You're spot on Lanny. Luke is definitely playing for his job and is going with who he believes will win games down the stretch. Whoever is playing best down the stretch is going to end the games.


And Rose was absolutely torching Rondo at the end of games and just shooting over him. Yes, Lonzo was getting roasted too but I would have put Lonzo out there (17 straight minutes for Rondo at the end) to try to stop Rose a bit more with his size.


But but, rondo was telling baby TC where to be on the court.

If Hart played I have no complains but rondo? 17straight mins?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:58 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Right now there's no clear alternative to BI, while Lonzo has Rondo right at his heels. So BI will automatically get the starting nod and finish games, which is good for his development.

Lonzo is being trained with the Byron leash where you can see he plays to not make a mistake as opposed to taking risks and excelling.


Hart is a clear alternative to Ingram in the starting lineup. We watched it work. Ingram still needs to finish games but coming off the bench will help him too.


yeah, Ingram is clearly the weakest link in the starting lineup

Make the following Top 10 LG users lists....

-- those that want to bench and/or trade Ingram
-- those that are the biggest supporters of Lonzo
-- those that always claim Rondo is performing poorly
-- those that think Luke should be fired because his decisions on who gets playing time

It is basically the same list.


Never said Ingram was the weakest link just don’t think he fits very well in the starting lineup. Not advocating to give him less minutes, just minutes in different lineups so his skill set can be better utilized. Manu and Harden are just a few guys that thrive with the ball in their hands and were brought off the bench because there were other guys who needed the ball more in the starting lineup. Then you can run the offense of the second unit primarily through them. It’s a basketball reason, nothing more.
I didn’t say Rondo played poorly, just think he takes the ball out of Lebrons hands too much and is a poor defender. LeBron is just better with Lonzo. I would take time to pull numbers and explain it to you but that would be pointless as you wouldn’t believe that is why I believe what I believe anyways. I know you can’t accept that people believe Lonzo is better than Rondo for strictly basketball reasons but I do, believe it or not.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject:

Aside from shooting, Lonzo has been worse this year. I doubt he's past his prime already, so I'm going to guess something is affecting him, whether it's conditioning or adjusting to new teammates.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:07 am    Post subject:

Jesusdelonla wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
King Randle wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Luke is coaching for his job.

If he is playing Rondo over Ball down the stretch it is because he thinks it leads to a better chance of winning the game.

I am on board with playing to win, development time was the last five years, it is time to be big boys now and get back to the playoffs, not work on some kind of massive multi-year player development plan.


You're spot on Lanny. Luke is definitely playing for his job and is going with who he believes will win games down the stretch. Whoever is playing best down the stretch is going to end the games.


And Rose was absolutely torching Rondo at the end of games and just shooting over him. Yes, Lonzo was getting roasted too but I would have put Lonzo out there (17 straight minutes for Rondo at the end) to try to stop Rose a bit more with his size.


But but, rondo was telling baby TC where to be on the court.

If Hart played I have no complains but rondo? 17straight mins?


Say what you want...but Walton went with Rondo and they won. I'm not saying I would have done the same. But obviously Luke trusted Rondo more than Zo to win the game and they won. He trust Rondo's decision making more right now. It's important for Zo to embrace this and really pick up his game instead on sulking and losing confidence.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject:

King Randle wrote:
Jesusdelonla wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
King Randle wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Luke is coaching for his job.

If he is playing Rondo over Ball down the stretch it is because he thinks it leads to a better chance of winning the game.

I am on board with playing to win, development time was the last five years, it is time to be big boys now and get back to the playoffs, not work on some kind of massive multi-year player development plan.


You're spot on Lanny. Luke is definitely playing for his job and is going with who he believes will win games down the stretch. Whoever is playing best down the stretch is going to end the games.


And Rose was absolutely torching Rondo at the end of games and just shooting over him. Yes, Lonzo was getting roasted too but I would have put Lonzo out there (17 straight minutes for Rondo at the end) to try to stop Rose a bit more with his size.


But but, rondo was telling baby TC where to be on the court.

If Hart played I have no complains but rondo? 17straight mins?


Say what you want...but Walton went with Rondo and they won. I'm not saying I would have done the same. But obviously Luke trusted Rondo more than Zo to win the game and they won. He trust Rondo's decision making more right now. It's important for Zo to embrace this and really pick up his game instead on sulking and losing confidence.


I would argue we won despite Rondo at the end. He was just getting destroyed by Rose of all people. Would rather have had Hart in there and let LBJ/BI run the offense without a traditional "PG." For all the talk about non-traditional positions, Luke is very traditional about a "PG."
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I think fighting and competing for minutes with Rondo (as opposed to a lesser player like Ronnie Price) will in the long run, be good for Lonzo.


This is probably the first time in Lonzo’s life that he’s never had major minutes and a starring role just handed to him.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:16 am    Post subject:

Username wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think fighting and competing for minutes with Rondo (as opposed to a lesser player like Ronnie Price) will in the long run, be good for Lonzo.


This is probably the first time in Lonzo’s life that he’s never had major minutes and a starring role just handed to him.


Yup. I think Magic liked Fox b/c he had that "dog" in him. Lonzo isn't built that way (ironically Jules was...but I digress) nor was DLO. He's probably trying to coax that out of him but not sure if that'll ever come out.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject:

King Randle wrote:
Jesusdelonla wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
King Randle wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Luke is coaching for his job.

If he is playing Rondo over Ball down the stretch it is because he thinks it leads to a better chance of winning the game.

I am on board with playing to win, development time was the last five years, it is time to be big boys now and get back to the playoffs, not work on some kind of massive multi-year player development plan.


You're spot on Lanny. Luke is definitely playing for his job and is going with who he believes will win games down the stretch. Whoever is playing best down the stretch is going to end the games.


And Rose was absolutely torching Rondo at the end of games and just shooting over him. Yes, Lonzo was getting roasted too but I would have put Lonzo out there (17 straight minutes for Rondo at the end) to try to stop Rose a bit more with his size.


But but, rondo was telling baby TC where to be on the court.

If Hart played I have no complains but rondo? 17straight mins?


Say what you want...but Walton went with Rondo and they won. I'm not saying I would have done the same. But obviously Luke trusted Rondo more than Zo to win the game and they won. He trust Rondo's decision making more right now. It's important for Zo to embrace this and really pick up his game instead on sulking and losing confidence.


Rondo didn't do squat in last 4/6mins. We won cause of BI & Bron iso's
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:25 am    Post subject:

Jesusdelonla wrote:
Rondo didn't do squat in last 4/6mins. We won cause of BI & Bron iso's


Not that I think he should have played the last 17 minutes, but he had 2 important assists in the last minutes. His defense was poor, but I think he did his job on offense...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:25 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Right now there's no clear alternative to BI, while Lonzo has Rondo right at his heels. So BI will automatically get the starting nod and finish games, which is good for his development.

Lonzo is being trained with the Byron leash where you can see he plays to not make a mistake as opposed to taking risks and excelling.


Hart is a clear alternative to Ingram in the starting lineup. We watched it work. Ingram still needs to finish games but coming off the bench will help him too.


yeah, Ingram is clearly the weakest link in the starting lineup

Make the following Top 10 LG users lists....

-- those that want to bench and/or trade Ingram
-- those that are the biggest supporters of Lonzo
-- those that always claim Rondo is performing poorly
-- those that think Luke should be fired because his decisions on who gets playing time

It is basically the same list.


Never said Ingram was the weakest link just don’t think he fits very well in the starting lineup. Not advocating to give him less minutes, just minutes in different lineups so his skill set can be better utilized. Manu and Harden are just a few guys that thrive with the ball in their hands and were brought off the bench because there were other guys who needed the ball more in the starting lineup. Then you can run the offense of the second unit primarily through them. It’s a basketball reason, nothing more.
I didn’t say Rondo played poorly, just think he takes the ball out of Lebrons hands too much and is a poor defender. LeBron is just better with Lonzo. I would take time to pull numbers and explain it to you but that would be pointless as you wouldn’t believe that is why I believe what I believe anyways. I know you can’t accept that people believe Lonzo is better than Rondo for strictly basketball reasons but I do, believe it or not.


First, I think I have always been on the record that Lonzo is currently the better overall basketball player than Rondo, definitely will be the better basketball player, is more important to the organization, and should be the starter.

That said, Rondo is currently playing better with Lebron, and almost all the metrics I have looked at support that fact. If your conviction was only about basketball and winning, I think you would be open to Rondo in the starting lineup until Lonzo improves his play on the court.....but I do believe hell would freeze over before you ever advocated for Ball to come off the bench even if every measurement suggested it benefited the Lakers.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject:

Bol wrote:
Aside from shooting, Lonzo has been worse this year. I doubt he's past his prime already, so I'm going to guess something is affecting him, whether it's conditioning or adjusting to new teammates.


Lonzo? he is years away from sniffing his prime....he has at least 3 -4 more years before we can begin to consider him in his prime years......25, 26ish
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:31 am    Post subject:

We knew this was gonna be a debate the moment we signed Rondo.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject:

24ways2die wrote:
We knew this was gonna be a debate the moment we signed Rondo.


some of us did....many bought what Rondo was claiming about coming here to mentor Lonzo, etc. etc. Rondo will be 40 years old still out there trying to steal minutes from younger guys....that is just the way he is wired.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Username wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think fighting and competing for minutes with Rondo (as opposed to a lesser player like Ronnie Price) will in the long run, be good for Lonzo.


This is probably the first time in Lonzo’s life that he’s never had major minutes and a starring role just handed to him.


Yup. I think Magic liked Fox b/c he had that "dog" in him. Lonzo isn't built that way (ironically Jules was...but I digress) nor was DLO. He's probably trying to coax that out of him but not sure if that'll ever come out.


I honestly don't think Zo has that "dog" in him. Lavar raised him to be subservient imo so that he'd always be able to control him. The kid is talented with a unique skillset, but I doubt he'll ever be an MVP/franchise-level guy.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Right now there's no clear alternative to BI, while Lonzo has Rondo right at his heels. So BI will automatically get the starting nod and finish games, which is good for his development.

Lonzo is being trained with the Byron leash where you can see he plays to not make a mistake as opposed to taking risks and excelling.


Hart is a clear alternative to Ingram in the starting lineup. We watched it work. Ingram still needs to finish games but coming off the bench will help him too.


yeah, Ingram is clearly the weakest link in the starting lineup

Make the following Top 10 LG users lists....

-- those that want to bench and/or trade Ingram
-- those that are the biggest supporters of Lonzo
-- those that always claim Rondo is performing poorly
-- those that think Luke should be fired because his decisions on who gets playing time

It is basically the same list.


Never said Ingram was the weakest link just don’t think he fits very well in the starting lineup. Not advocating to give him less minutes, just minutes in different lineups so his skill set can be better utilized. Manu and Harden are just a few guys that thrive with the ball in their hands and were brought off the bench because there were other guys who needed the ball more in the starting lineup. Then you can run the offense of the second unit primarily through them. It’s a basketball reason, nothing more.
I didn’t say Rondo played poorly, just think he takes the ball out of Lebrons hands too much and is a poor defender. LeBron is just better with Lonzo. I would take time to pull numbers and explain it to you but that would be pointless as you wouldn’t believe that is why I believe what I believe anyways. I know you can’t accept that people believe Lonzo is better than Rondo for strictly basketball reasons but I do, believe it or not.


First, I think I have always been on the record that Lonzo is currently the better overall basketball player than Rondo, definitely will be the better basketball player, is more important to the organization, and should be the starter.

That said, Rondo is currently playing better with Lebron, and almost all the metrics I have looked at support that fact. If your conviction was only about basketball and winning, I think you would be open to Rondo in the starting lineup until Lonzo improves his play on the court.....but I do believe hell would freeze over before you ever advocated for Ball to come off the bench even if every measurement suggested it benefited the Lakers.


I understand you said and believe those things, I’m not attacking your position or the reasons behind them, you are the one accusing me of having an opinion not based on what is happening on the floor.

The Lakers best 3 game stretch came during Rondos suspension. It included an overtime loss where they were a FT away from beating a playof team, the only blowout of the year albeit against a bad team, and a win the next day against a team that lost for the second time all year last night. Do you disagree about that being their best stretch of 3 games?

I know you’re convinced I’m bias for Lonzo and if I am the reason I’m bias is because of the type of basketball player he is and the impact he has on the team. Nothing more. I don’t value Ball over the Lakers as you constantly infer, I think he makes the team better.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:51 am    Post subject:

Quote:
.but I do believe hell would freeze over before you ever advocated for Ball to come off the bench even if every measurement suggested it benefited the Lakers.


Strike two.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:00 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
I understand you said and believe those things, I’m not attacking your position or the reasons behind them, you are the one accusing me of having an opinion not based on what is happening on the floor.

The Lakers best 3 game stretch came during Rondos suspension. It included an overtime loss where they were a FT away from beating a playof team, the only blowout of the year albeit against a bad team, and a win the next day against a team that lost for the second time all year last night. Do you disagree about that being their best stretch of 3 games?

I know you’re convinced I’m bias for Lonzo and if I am the reason I’m bias is because of the type of basketball player he is and the impact he has on the team. Nothing more. I don’t value Ball over the Lakers as you constantly infer, I think he makes the team better.


we both have a very good idea about what each other think about players....and my primary issue is there seems to be correlating opinions in regards to how player A should be treated that are always paired with how player B, C, and D should be treated. I find it extremely flawed logic for anyone to advocate for Ball or Ingram to not start currently for this organization for many basketball and business reasons. As you can see from the subsequent post, I am being forced to post on eggshells as nearly anything I say is being scrutinized with a specific purpose, so we can leave it where it is today.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:01 am    Post subject:

durden-tyler wrote:
Jesusdelonla wrote:
Rondo didn't do squat in last 4/6mins. We won cause of BI & Bron iso's


Not that I think he should have played the last 17 minutes, but he had 2 important assists in the last minutes. His defense was poor, but I think he did his job on offense...


those assist could have come from any player on the court. it was not like he was getting double teamed and then making the right play or he created those assists from his play.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:08 am    Post subject:

Jesusdelonla wrote:
durden-tyler wrote:
Jesusdelonla wrote:
Rondo didn't do squat in last 4/6mins. We won cause of BI & Bron iso's


Not that I think he should have played the last 17 minutes, but he had 2 important assists in the last minutes. His defense was poor, but I think he did his job on offense...


those assist could have come from any player on the court. it was not like he was getting double teamed and then making the right play or he created those assists from his play.


that is a debate that you will never find your way out of....the value of an assist, the type of assist, should it even be an assist, etc.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
I understand you said and believe those things, I’m not attacking your position or the reasons behind them, you are the one accusing me of having an opinion not based on what is happening on the floor.

The Lakers best 3 game stretch came during Rondos suspension. It included an overtime loss where they were a FT away from beating a playof team, the only blowout of the year albeit against a bad team, and a win the next day against a team that lost for the second time all year last night. Do you disagree about that being their best stretch of 3 games?

I know you’re convinced I’m bias for Lonzo and if I am the reason I’m bias is because of the type of basketball player he is and the impact he has on the team. Nothing more. I don’t value Ball over the Lakers as you constantly infer, I think he makes the team better.


we both have a very good idea about what each other think about players....and my primary issue is there seems to be correlating opinions in regards to how player A should be treated that are always paired with how player B, C, and D should be treated. I find it extremely flawed logic for anyone to advocate for Ball or Ingram to not start currently for this organization for many basketball and business reasons. As you can see from the subsequent post, I am being forced to post on eggshells as nearly anything I say is being scrutinized with a specific purpose, so we can leave it where it is today.


Attempt to discredit my points and opinions instead of the reasons I’m making those points and why I hold those opinions and you won’t have to walk on egg shells. I’ve discussed why I believe what I believe with thought out reason that you ignore, to post about the underlying bias you believe are in my posts. That’s why you’re being warned.

Look I’m not as high on Ingram as many but even people who think Ingram is the best prospect on the team have told me they agree about my idea for Ingram as the 6th man. I think he has more 6 MOY potential than Kuzma who is the usual scapegoat to keep Ingram in the starting lineup. I believe things for basketball reasons, disagree you may end up correct but it’s going on two years of you inferring my opinions are bias and it’s grown old. We disagree about many basketball points but I think we have had some educated thoughtful debates when we don’t resort to the bias cop out. I’m guiltyof it at times too.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
I understand you said and believe those things, I’m not attacking your position or the reasons behind them, you are the one accusing me of having an opinion not based on what is happening on the floor.

The Lakers best 3 game stretch came during Rondos suspension. It included an overtime loss where they were a FT away from beating a playof team, the only blowout of the year albeit against a bad team, and a win the next day against a team that lost for the second time all year last night. Do you disagree about that being their best stretch of 3 games?

I know you’re convinced I’m bias for Lonzo and if I am the reason I’m bias is because of the type of basketball player he is and the impact he has on the team. Nothing more. I don’t value Ball over the Lakers as you constantly infer, I think he makes the team better.


we both have a very good idea about what each other think about players....and my primary issue is there seems to be correlating opinions in regards to how player A should be treated that are always paired with how player B, C, and D should be treated. I find it extremely flawed logic for anyone to advocate for Ball or Ingram to not start currently for this organization for many basketball and business reasons. As you can see from the subsequent post, I am being forced to post on eggshells as nearly anything I say is being scrutinized with a specific purpose, so we can leave it where it is today.


Attempt to discredit my points and opinions instead of the reasons I’m making those points and why I hold those opinions and you won’t have to walk on egg shells. I’ve discussed why I believe what I believe with thought out reason that you ignore, to post about the underlying bias you believe are in my posts. That’s why you’re being warned.

Look I’m not as high on Ingram as many but even people who think Ingram is the best prospect on the team have told me they agree about my idea for Ingram as the 6th man. I think he has more 6 MOY potential than Kuzma who is the usual scapegoat to keep Ingram in the starting lineup. I believe things for basketball reasons, disagree you may end up correct but it’s going on two years of you inferring my opinions are bias and it’s grown old. We disagree about many basketball points but I think we have had some educated thoughtful debates when we don’t resort to the bias cop out. I’m guiltyof it at times too.


I would prefer we just accepted we believe different things, and how we reached those conclusions. I have just found that the numbers do not support the claims when it relates to Lonzo, except on defense last season....but even those numbers are not strong this season. When the statement is made that Lebron and Lonzo are best paired, but the numbers say the opposite, I do not have many options left but to believe that a bias is behind the opinion. When I am told that Lonzo makes the players better around him on offense, but the on/off numbers have said the exact opposite going on 2 seasons now, how do I not conclude bias is behind the conclusion. This season I have noticed a strong correlation between opinions strongly defending Lonzo against any criticism, and opinions in Ingrams thread routinely with more negative suggestions of benching, trading, or highlighting his flaws. I think you would agree that I am probably lower on Ball than most Laker fans....much lower than yourself and a few others....but I still advocate for his development, his improvement, and his long term role as a starter on the team.
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LakersRGolden
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject:

Bol wrote:
Aside from shooting, Lonzo has been worse this year. I doubt he's past his prime already, so I'm going to guess something is affecting him, whether it's conditioning or adjusting to new teammates.


His role has changed drastically. It's gone from running the team to being a 3 & D guard.

Last year, he would hang back, get the rebound and push. That's Lebron's "job" now. The motion plays that he excels at in the 1/2 court are gone for Lebron drive and kicks. He just needs to find his role again in 10 fewer minutes per game.
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:
Bol wrote:
Aside from shooting, Lonzo has been worse this year. I doubt he's past his prime already, so I'm going to guess something is affecting him, whether it's conditioning or adjusting to new teammates.


His role has changed drastically. It's gone from running the team to being a 3 & D guard.

Last year, he would hang back, get the rebound and push. That's Lebron's "job" now. The motion plays that he excels at in the 1/2 court are gone for Lebron drive and kicks. He just needs to find his role again in 10 fewer minutes per game.


Exactly. It also ties in with his on/off numbers, where he mostly plays along starters, when they've been absolutely atrocious, yet never gets PT along the bench guys when they make a scoring run. Season on/off is a poor indicator of his actual performance from game-to-game, especially when Rondo has been pretty awful until last night's game. Needed Portland to punch that +/- up considerably.
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