OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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lakersfever714
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject:

This year the focus is about winning and less on player development so Lonzo doesn't get as big a leash as last year anymore. He's pressured to perform every time he's on the floor and so far that pressure has got to him. His minutes have been way down. Whenever he was on the floor with the ball, he's been very timid.

He should put himself in Hart's shoes: with the mentality of a late pick that would only get limited minutes off the bench but would utilize those minutes effectively in order to earn more playing time.

I'm glad Hart is playing well which makes up for this Lonzo pick.
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:35 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
I understand you said and believe those things, I’m not attacking your position or the reasons behind them, you are the one accusing me of having an opinion not based on what is happening on the floor.

The Lakers best 3 game stretch came during Rondos suspension. It included an overtime loss where they were a FT away from beating a playof team, the only blowout of the year albeit against a bad team, and a win the next day against a team that lost for the second time all year last night. Do you disagree about that being their best stretch of 3 games?

I know you’re convinced I’m bias for Lonzo and if I am the reason I’m bias is because of the type of basketball player he is and the impact he has on the team. Nothing more. I don’t value Ball over the Lakers as you constantly infer, I think he makes the team better.


we both have a very good idea about what each other think about players....and my primary issue is there seems to be correlating opinions in regards to how player A should be treated that are always paired with how player B, C, and D should be treated. I find it extremely flawed logic for anyone to advocate for Ball or Ingram to not start currently for this organization for many basketball and business reasons. As you can see from the subsequent post, I am being forced to post on eggshells as nearly anything I say is being scrutinized with a specific purpose, so we can leave it where it is today.


Attempt to discredit my points and opinions instead of the reasons I’m making those points and why I hold those opinions and you won’t have to walk on egg shells. I’ve discussed why I believe what I believe with thought out reason that you ignore, to post about the underlying bias you believe are in my posts. That’s why you’re being warned.

Look I’m not as high on Ingram as many but even people who think Ingram is the best prospect on the team have told me they agree about my idea for Ingram as the 6th man. I think he has more 6 MOY potential than Kuzma who is the usual scapegoat to keep Ingram in the starting lineup. I believe things for basketball reasons, disagree you may end up correct but it’s going on two years of you inferring my opinions are bias and it’s grown old. We disagree about many basketball points but I think we have had some educated thoughtful debates when we don’t resort to the bias cop out. I’m guiltyof it at times too.


I would prefer we just accepted we believe different things, and how we reached those conclusions. I have just found that the numbers do not support the claims when it relates to Lonzo, except on defense last season....but even those numbers are not strong this season. When the statement is made that Lebron and Lonzo are best paired, but the numbers say the opposite, I do not have many options left but to believe that a bias is behind the opinion. When I am told that Lonzo makes the players better around him on offense, but the on/off numbers have said the exact opposite going on 2 seasons now, how do I not conclude bias is behind the conclusion. This season I have noticed a strong correlation between opinions strongly defending Lonzo against any criticism, and opinions in Ingrams thread routinely with more negative suggestions of benching, trading, or highlighting his flaws. I think you would agree that I am probably lower on Ball than most Laker fans....much lower than yourself and a few others....but I still advocate for his development, his improvement, and his long term role as a starter on the team.


Come on man. Every number does not suggest that as I have been posting numbers and mentioning games where Lonzo and LeBron were better together. You’re being dishonest saying that. Disagree, that’s totally fine but enough of this bias (bleep). I have always advocated for Ingram’s improvement and development, I think he could do that more on the bench than in the starting lineup. That doesn’t mean I’m bias it’s an opinion. You’re clearly incapable of having a discussion without inferring my bias as you refuse to respond to the points I make. I asked you a simple question, were the 3 games Rondo missed the best 3 game stretch of the year for the Lakers? If you disagree I can see why you think Rondo and LeBron are better together. The numbers suggest LeBron had his most positive impact in those games and that the team was at their best.
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epak
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:39 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
Bol wrote:
Aside from shooting, Lonzo has been worse this year. I doubt he's past his prime already, so I'm going to guess something is affecting him, whether it's conditioning or adjusting to new teammates.


His role has changed drastically. It's gone from running the team to being a 3 & D guard.

Last year, he would hang back, get the rebound and push. That's Lebron's "job" now. The motion plays that he excels at in the 1/2 court are gone for Lebron drive and kicks. He just needs to find his role again in 10 fewer minutes per game.


Exactly. It also ties in with his on/off numbers, where he mostly plays along starters, when they've been absolutely atrocious, yet never gets PT along the bench guys when they make a scoring run. Season on/off is a poor indicator of his actual performance from game-to-game, especially when Rondo has been pretty awful until last night's game. Needed Portland to punch that +/- up considerably.


I'm just hoping things average out by the end of the year.
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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject:

Rondo
KCP/Lance
Ingram
LBJ
McGee

Lonzo
Hart
Svi
Kuzma
Chandler/Mo

We should make LBJ play with "his" signings and let Lonzo play on the second unit with this shooter lineup.

Playing against the second units he would dominate, gain confidence and this lineup would have up to four good shooters if we played Mo.

Also this lineup wouldn't have any iso/ballhogging vets that would neutralize his playmaking.

Whichever lineup played better throughout the game should close.
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epak
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:59 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Rondo
KCP/Lance
Ingram
LBJ
McGee

Lonzo
Hart
Svi
Kuzma
Chandler/Mo

We should make LBJ play with "his" signings and let Lonzo play on the second unit with this shooter lineup.

Playing against the second units he would dominate, gain confidence and this lineup would have up to four good shooters if we played Mo.

Also this lineup wouldn't have any iso/ballhogging vets that would neutralize his playmaking.

Whichever lineup played better throughout the game should close.



I've had it with the current starting lineup. When BI came back and was going to be the SG, I thought the lineup wouldn't work. But after the Mavs game, I was bamboozled and thought it would work

But besides that fluke Mavs game, they've been crap. I've had it so much that I'd even be OK with Lonzo going to the bench. Ideally, it would be one of BI/Kuzma. But hey, whatever makes the team better. So if it's Zo, let it be.

Unless they use the lineup again in Sacramento and the unit blows out the Kings, then I'm back on rooting for the current lineup haha.
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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Rondo
KCP/Lance
Ingram
LBJ
McGee

Lonzo
Hart
Svi
Kuzma
Chandler/Mo

We should make LBJ play with "his" signings and let Lonzo play on the second unit with this shooter lineup.

Playing against the second units he would dominate, gain confidence and this lineup would have up to four good shooters if we played Mo.

Also this lineup wouldn't have any iso/ballhogging vets that would neutralize his playmaking.

Whichever lineup played better throughout the game should close.



I've had it with the current starting lineup. When BI came back and was going to be the SG, I thought the lineup wouldn't work. But after the Mavs game, I was bamboozled and thought it would work

But besides that fluke Mavs game, they've been crap. I've had it so much that I'd even be OK with Lonzo going to the bench. Ideally, it would be one of BI/Kuzma. But hey, whatever makes the team better. So if it's Zo, let it be.

Unless they use the lineup again in Sacramento and the unit blows out the Kings, then I'm back on rooting for the current lineup haha.


To be honest I don't care which of these lineups start... I just put that lineup first because LBJ won't come off the bench.

The point of these lineups is to free up Zo to play like he did last season.
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
I understand you said and believe those things, I’m not attacking your position or the reasons behind them, you are the one accusing me of having an opinion not based on what is happening on the floor.

The Lakers best 3 game stretch came during Rondos suspension. It included an overtime loss where they were a FT away from beating a playof team, the only blowout of the year albeit against a bad team, and a win the next day against a team that lost for the second time all year last night. Do you disagree about that being their best stretch of 3 games?

I know you’re convinced I’m bias for Lonzo and if I am the reason I’m bias is because of the type of basketball player he is and the impact he has on the team. Nothing more. I don’t value Ball over the Lakers as you constantly infer, I think he makes the team better.


we both have a very good idea about what each other think about players....and my primary issue is there seems to be correlating opinions in regards to how player A should be treated that are always paired with how player B, C, and D should be treated. I find it extremely flawed logic for anyone to advocate for Ball or Ingram to not start currently for this organization for many basketball and business reasons. As you can see from the subsequent post, I am being forced to post on eggshells as nearly anything I say is being scrutinized with a specific purpose, so we can leave it where it is today.


Attempt to discredit my points and opinions instead of the reasons I’m making those points and why I hold those opinions and you won’t have to walk on egg shells. I’ve discussed why I believe what I believe with thought out reason that you ignore, to post about the underlying bias you believe are in my posts. That’s why you’re being warned.

Look I’m not as high on Ingram as many but even people who think Ingram is the best prospect on the team have told me they agree about my idea for Ingram as the 6th man. I think he has more 6 MOY potential than Kuzma who is the usual scapegoat to keep Ingram in the starting lineup. I believe things for basketball reasons, disagree you may end up correct but it’s going on two years of you inferring my opinions are bias and it’s grown old. We disagree about many basketball points but I think we have had some educated thoughtful debates when we don’t resort to the bias cop out. I’m guiltyof it at times too.


I would prefer we just accepted we believe different things, and how we reached those conclusions. I have just found that the numbers do not support the claims when it relates to Lonzo, except on defense last season....but even those numbers are not strong this season. When the statement is made that Lebron and Lonzo are best paired, but the numbers say the opposite, I do not have many options left but to believe that a bias is behind the opinion. When I am told that Lonzo makes the players better around him on offense, but the on/off numbers have said the exact opposite going on 2 seasons now, how do I not conclude bias is behind the conclusion. This season I have noticed a strong correlation between opinions strongly defending Lonzo against any criticism, and opinions in Ingrams thread routinely with more negative suggestions of benching, trading, or highlighting his flaws. I think you would agree that I am probably lower on Ball than most Laker fans....much lower than yourself and a few others....but I still advocate for his development, his improvement, and his long term role as a starter on the team.


Come on man. Every number does not suggest that as I have been posting numbers and mentioning games where Lonzo and LeBron were better together. You’re being dishonest saying that. Disagree, that’s totally fine but enough of this bias (bleep). I have always advocated for Ingram’s improvement and development, I think he could do that more on the bench than in the starting lineup. That doesn’t mean I’m bias it’s an opinion. You’re clearly incapable of having a discussion without inferring my bias as you refuse to respond to the points I make. I asked you a simple question, were the 3 games Rondo missed the best 3 game stretch of the year for the Lakers? If you disagree I can see why you think Rondo and LeBron are better together. The numbers suggest LeBron had his most positive impact in those games and that the team was at their best.


all I really know to do is give you the numbers....

Ball/James Lineups - traditional stats
https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612747/lineups-traditional/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GroupQuantity=2&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*ball:GROUP_NAME*E*james

Rondo/James Lineups - traditional stats
https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612747/lineups-traditional/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GroupQuantity=2&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*rondo:GROUP_NAME*E*james

- the traditional stats compared between the two clearly illustrate a much better result with Rondo/Lebron lineups being a -0.6 compared to Ball/Lebron lineups being a -2.8.

Ball/James Lineups - advanced stats
https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612747/lineups-advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GroupQuantity=2&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*ball:GROUP_NAME*E*james

Rondo/James Lineups - advanced stats
https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612747/lineups-advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GroupQuantity=2&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*rondo:GROUP_NAME*E*james

- the advanced metrics compared between the two clearly illustrate a much better result with Rondo/Lebron lineups with a better net rating and a faster pace compared to Ball/Lebron lineups.

Lonzo Ball On/Off
Rajon Rondo On/Off

- on/off numbers illustrate that the team is 3 points better on offense, and 7.5 points better on defense when Rondo is on the court compared to when he is on the bench. In contrast, the team 9.8 points worse on offense and 8.9 points worse on defense when Lonzo is on the court compared to when he is on the bench.
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splashmtn
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
This year the focus is about winning and less on player development so Lonzo doesn't get as big a leash as last year anymore. He's pressured to perform every time he's on the floor and so far that pressure has got to him. His minutes have been way down. Whenever he was on the floor with the ball, he's been very timid.

He should put himself in Hart's shoes: with the mentality of a late pick that would only get limited minutes off the bench but would utilize those minutes effectively in order to earn more playing time.

I'm glad Hart is playing well which makes up for this Lonzo pick.
the problem with comparing zo to hart or kuz is that those guys do not have the same responsibilities as he does at the pg spot. not even close. they have 2 jobs.
play decent defense and score. thats it.

his job is play very good defense on the hardest position in the nba that constantly runs off of screens. while also setting up the team in the offense, while also hitting the open man at the right spots, while also scoring the ball from deep, and going to the rack in traffic and scoring.

^^you're trying to compare hart a guy with 2 jobs to a guy named lonzo with 4 jobs. its not a fair comparison at all.

If lonzo just said the heck with it and became a scorer or occasionally passed. he would score at a higher clip and be more efficient. but the passing would be gone for the most part. If he was asked to only pass. he would have a ton of assists but no points. if he was asked to only defend, he could do that too but the other stuff would suffer.

you see D.lillard. all offense and ZERO defense. he's slightly above average at setting up his guys. lillard is a short shooting guard with point guard handles and quickness.
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splashmtn
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Rondo
KCP/Lance
Ingram
LBJ
McGee

Lonzo
Hart
Svi
Kuzma
Chandler/Mo

We should make LBJ play with "his" signings and let Lonzo play on the second unit with this shooter lineup.

Playing against the second units he would dominate, gain confidence and this lineup would have up to four good shooters if we played Mo.

Also this lineup wouldn't have any iso/ballhogging vets that would neutralize his playmaking.

Whichever lineup played better throughout the game should close.
all jokes aside, i would actually try this if i were luke.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject:

He aint no Jkidd
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
This year the focus is about winning and less on player development so Lonzo doesn't get as big a leash as last year anymore. He's pressured to perform every time he's on the floor and so far that pressure has got to him. His minutes have been way down. Whenever he was on the floor with the ball, he's been very timid.

He should put himself in Hart's shoes: with the mentality of a late pick that would only get limited minutes off the bench but would utilize those minutes effectively in order to earn more playing time.

I'm glad Hart is playing well which makes up for this Lonzo pick.


If he has it, he will rise to the occasion. A dinosaur like Rondo should not pressure him to play well. If he's alpha, he will take it.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:23 am    Post subject:

AirTupac wrote:
He aint no Jkidd


He is JKidd with a jump shot. Not the first or 2nd option but someone that can set the tone and pace and make a huge impact .
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
AirTupac wrote:
He aint no Jkidd


He is JKidd with a jump shot. Not the first or 2nd option but someone that can set the tone and pace and make a huge impact .


I might be anti-lonzo because of his recent play but I was just rewatching JKIDD gameplay. He just seems like he is smarter than Lonzo. Dude was balling out in his 2nd year with 16/10. Lonzo isn't clicking things together. He should be able to drive in, hop step, do whatever to get in the lane to help open up / finish, but he doesnt do any of that. Can't play halfcourt either :/
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:29 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
I understand you said and believe those things, I’m not attacking your position or the reasons behind them, you are the one accusing me of having an opinion not based on what is happening on the floor.

The Lakers best 3 game stretch came during Rondos suspension. It included an overtime loss where they were a FT away from beating a playof team, the only blowout of the year albeit against a bad team, and a win the next day against a team that lost for the second time all year last night. Do you disagree about that being their best stretch of 3 games?

I know you’re convinced I’m bias for Lonzo and if I am the reason I’m bias is because of the type of basketball player he is and the impact he has on the team. Nothing more. I don’t value Ball over the Lakers as you constantly infer, I think he makes the team better.


we both have a very good idea about what each other think about players....and my primary issue is there seems to be correlating opinions in regards to how player A should be treated that are always paired with how player B, C, and D should be treated. I find it extremely flawed logic for anyone to advocate for Ball or Ingram to not start currently for this organization for many basketball and business reasons. As you can see from the subsequent post, I am being forced to post on eggshells as nearly anything I say is being scrutinized with a specific purpose, so we can leave it where it is today.


Attempt to discredit my points and opinions instead of the reasons I’m making those points and why I hold those opinions and you won’t have to walk on egg shells. I’ve discussed why I believe what I believe with thought out reason that you ignore, to post about the underlying bias you believe are in my posts. That’s why you’re being warned.

Look I’m not as high on Ingram as many but even people who think Ingram is the best prospect on the team have told me they agree about my idea for Ingram as the 6th man. I think he has more 6 MOY potential than Kuzma who is the usual scapegoat to keep Ingram in the starting lineup. I believe things for basketball reasons, disagree you may end up correct but it’s going on two years of you inferring my opinions are bias and it’s grown old. We disagree about many basketball points but I think we have had some educated thoughtful debates when we don’t resort to the bias cop out. I’m guiltyof it at times too.


I would prefer we just accepted we believe different things, and how we reached those conclusions. I have just found that the numbers do not support the claims when it relates to Lonzo, except on defense last season....but even those numbers are not strong this season. When the statement is made that Lebron and Lonzo are best paired, but the numbers say the opposite, I do not have many options left but to believe that a bias is behind the opinion. When I am told that Lonzo makes the players better around him on offense, but the on/off numbers have said the exact opposite going on 2 seasons now, how do I not conclude bias is behind the conclusion. This season I have noticed a strong correlation between opinions strongly defending Lonzo against any criticism, and opinions in Ingrams thread routinely with more negative suggestions of benching, trading, or highlighting his flaws. I think you would agree that I am probably lower on Ball than most Laker fans....much lower than yourself and a few others....but I still advocate for his development, his improvement, and his long term role as a starter on the team.


Come on man. Every number does not suggest that as I have been posting numbers and mentioning games where Lonzo and LeBron were better together. You’re being dishonest saying that. Disagree, that’s totally fine but enough of this bias (bleep). I have always advocated for Ingram’s improvement and development, I think he could do that more on the bench than in the starting lineup. That doesn’t mean I’m bias it’s an opinion. You’re clearly incapable of having a discussion without inferring my bias as you refuse to respond to the points I make. I asked you a simple question, were the 3 games Rondo missed the best 3 game stretch of the year for the Lakers? If you disagree I can see why you think Rondo and LeBron are better together. The numbers suggest LeBron had his most positive impact in those games and that the team was at their best.


all I really know to do is give you the numbers....

Ball/James Lineups - traditional stats
https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612747/lineups-traditional/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GroupQuantity=2&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*ball:GROUP_NAME*E*james

Rondo/James Lineups - traditional stats
https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612747/lineups-traditional/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GroupQuantity=2&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*rondo:GROUP_NAME*E*james

- the traditional stats compared between the two clearly illustrate a much better result with Rondo/Lebron lineups being a -0.6 compared to Ball/Lebron lineups being a -2.8.

Ball/James Lineups - advanced stats
https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612747/lineups-advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GroupQuantity=2&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*ball:GROUP_NAME*E*james

Rondo/James Lineups - advanced stats
https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612747/lineups-advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GroupQuantity=2&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*rondo:GROUP_NAME*E*james

- the advanced metrics compared between the two clearly illustrate a much better result with Rondo/Lebron lineups with a better net rating and a faster pace compared to Ball/Lebron lineups.

Lonzo Ball On/Off
Rajon Rondo On/Off

- on/off numbers illustrate that the team is 3 points better on offense, and 7.5 points better on defense when Rondo is on the court compared to when he is on the bench. In contrast, the team 9.8 points worse on offense and 8.9 points worse on defense when Lonzo is on the court compared to when he is on the bench.


This conversation started because I mentioned that the on off numbers are deceptive due to the inefficiency of the starting lineup we’ve been using which is a large portion of their minutes together. You still haven’t answered my very simple question.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
AirTupac wrote:
He aint no Jkidd


He is JKidd with a jump shot. Not the first or 2nd option but someone that can set the tone and pace and make a huge impact .


JKidd is more aggressive, he actually attacks the paint and finishes around the rim. Watch him in the half-court. He actually has a different game than Lonzo in the half-court who usually is relegated to standing behind the corner three to operate, either to shoot, to cut, or lob a pass.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject:

Jesusdelonla wrote:
King Randle wrote:
Jesusdelonla wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
King Randle wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Luke is coaching for his job.

If he is playing Rondo over Ball down the stretch it is because he thinks it leads to a better chance of winning the game.

I am on board with playing to win, development time was the last five years, it is time to be big boys now and get back to the playoffs, not work on some kind of massive multi-year player development plan.


You're spot on Lanny. Luke is definitely playing for his job and is going with who he believes will win games down the stretch. Whoever is playing best down the stretch is going to end the games.


And Rose was absolutely torching Rondo at the end of games and just shooting over him. Yes, Lonzo was getting roasted too but I would have put Lonzo out there (17 straight minutes for Rondo at the end) to try to stop Rose a bit more with his size.


But but, rondo was telling baby TC where to be on the court.

If Hart played I have no complains but rondo? 17straight mins?


Say what you want...but Walton went with Rondo and they won. I'm not saying I would have done the same. But obviously Luke trusted Rondo more than Zo to win the game and they won. He trust Rondo's decision making more right now. It's important for Zo to embrace this and really pick up his game instead on sulking and losing confidence.


Rondo didn't do squat in last 4/6mins. We won cause of BI & Bron iso's


I'm not disagreeing that Rondo was the reason they won. My point is Walton went with who he thought would win the game and they did. He's done this a few times already, going with Rondo down the stretch...and he's probably going to continue doing that unless Zo really steps up his game.
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AirTupac
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject:

Jordan-esque wrote:
CRoost wrote:
AirTupac wrote:
He aint no Jkidd


He is JKidd with a jump shot. Not the first or 2nd option but someone that can set the tone and pace and make a huge impact .


JKidd is more aggressive, he actually attacks the paint and finishes around the rim. Watch him in the half-court. He actually has a different game than Lonzo in the half-court who usually is relegated to standing behind the corner three to operate, either to shoot, to cut, or lob a pass.


Yeah the difference is glaring. Half the time, I dont even notice Lonzo anymore because hes just standing around. Im just perplexed to why he doesnt use his athleticism and length to drive in and finish. He's missing a lot to his game despite his high IQ and passing abilities.
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:38 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
This conversation started because I mentioned that the on off numbers are deceptive due to the inefficiency of the starting lineup we’ve been using which is a large portion of their minutes together. You still haven’t answered my very simple question.


If you go back to the initial post of our discussion, and follow it all the way through, post by post.....I see nothing about this initiating our conversation. Our conversation began based on your position that Hart should start in place of Ingram. I am not sure what your simple question was that I failed to answer, but if you are going to claim/take the position that the numbers....all of them....the lineup comparisons, the traditional stats, the advanced metrics, the net ratings, the on/off numbers give an incorrect perception of reality....then I really do not have much of a counter to offer, and we will have to disagree.
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
This conversation started because I mentioned that the on off numbers are deceptive due to the inefficiency of the starting lineup we’ve been using which is a large portion of their minutes together. You still haven’t answered my very simple question.


If you go back to the initial post of our discussion, and follow it all the way through, post by post.....I see nothing about this initiating our conversation. Our conversation began based on your position that Hart should start in place of Ingram. I am not sure what your simple question was that I failed to answer, but if you are going to claim/take the position that the numbers....all of them....the lineup comparisons, the traditional stats, the advanced metrics, the net ratings, the on/off numbers give an incorrect perception of reality....then I really do not have much of a counter to offer, and we will have to disagree.


I said that to somebody else and that sparked the conversation about Hart over Ingram in the starting lineup. I thought you read that very critical part of my opinion, my bad for assuming that.

My question was do you believe the 3 games Rondo missed was the best 3 game stretch of the year for the team? OT loss to the spurs, blowout of the Suns, beating Denver on back to back. I believe that was the best stretch and it was the best +/- stretch for LeBron. So yes I think those numbers are an incorrect perception of reality. If we return to the starting lineup that occurred in that stretch I believe LeBron and Lonzos numbers individually and together would drastically improve as those games hint at.
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epak
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:57 am    Post subject:

AirTupac wrote:
Jordan-esque wrote:
CRoost wrote:
AirTupac wrote:
He aint no Jkidd


He is JKidd with a jump shot. Not the first or 2nd option but someone that can set the tone and pace and make a huge impact .


JKidd is more aggressive, he actually attacks the paint and finishes around the rim. Watch him in the half-court. He actually has a different game than Lonzo in the half-court who usually is relegated to standing behind the corner three to operate, either to shoot, to cut, or lob a pass.


Yeah the difference is glaring. Half the time, I dont even notice Lonzo anymore because hes just standing around. Im just perplexed to why he doesnt use his athleticism and length to drive in and finish. He's missing a lot to his game despite his high IQ and passing abilities.


I think number wise a 21 year old Lonzo fairs well with 21 year old JKidd.
But they are different indeed.
JKidd had better handles and maneuvered better in traffic. I believe that's the big hurdle for Lonzo. Lonzo seems to require space to be as effective.

However, if Lonzo keeps up with the 3ball %, I think his game will change from what JKidd was.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:06 am    Post subject:

I'm a bit torn on Lonzo. You know legends and greats can play anywhere, any system. They go to a place, and everything just gravitates and revolves around them. I get all the stuff about how he's a system player, but if that's really the truth, then he shouldn't have been a #2 pick. You want a little more from your #2, not just utility guy or system guy. Lakers went from trying to build a Warriors type team, which was foolish to begin with, to signing Lebron and Rondo. So as much as Mitch and Buss were given heat for no direction, Magic and Pelinka are sorta going in every direction. Base on where they're going, they shouldn't have drafted Lonzo.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Rondo
KCP/Lance
Ingram
LBJ
McGee

Lonzo
Hart
Svi
Kuzma
Chandler/Mo

We should make LBJ play with "his" signings and let Lonzo play on the second unit with this shooter lineup.

Playing against the second units he would dominate, gain confidence and this lineup would have up to four good shooters if we played Mo.

Also this lineup wouldn't have any iso/ballhogging vets that would neutralize his playmaking.

Whichever lineup played better throughout the game should close.
all jokes aside, i would actually try this if i were luke.


I'm not joking... I'm dead serious... let LBJ play with his iso ball crew maybe even switch Chandler for McGee... and let Lonzo play with some young shooters.
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Zillethai
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:15 am    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
AirTupac wrote:
He aint no Jkidd


He is JKidd with a jump shot. Not the first or 2nd option but someone that can set the tone and pace and make a huge impact .


Put some respeck on Jason Kidd's name
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PhiberOptik
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
I'm a bit torn on Lonzo. You know legends and greats can play anywhere, any system. They go to a place, and everything just gravitates and revolves around them. I get all the stuff about how he's a system player, but if that's really the truth, then he shouldn't have been a #2 pick. You want a little more from your #2, not just utility guy or system guy. Lakers went from trying to build a Warriors type team, which was foolish to begin with, to signing Lebron and Rondo. So as much as Mitch and Buss were given heat for no direction, Magic and Pelinka are sorta going in every direction. Base on where they're going, they shouldn't have drafted Lonzo.


I think we all are man. We want him to succeed but sometimes he's just "not there". See, we don't complain about BI, Kuz and Hart this way. It's not about making shots or not but it's the effort, willingness, the way you run, the way you let go of your emotions on the court says it all.
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epak
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:16 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
I'm a bit torn on Lonzo. You know legends and greats can play anywhere, any system. They go to a place, and everything just gravitates and revolves around them. I get all the stuff about how he's a system player, but if that's really the truth, then he shouldn't have been a #2 pick. You want a little more from your #2, not just utility guy or system guy. Lakers went from trying to build a Warriors type team, which was foolish to begin with, to signing Lebron and Rondo. So as much as Mitch and Buss were given heat for no direction, Magic and Pelinka are sorta going in every direction. Base on where they're going, they shouldn't have drafted Lonzo.


Hmm.
In my opinion, he's not a system guy per se.
He is the system... if that makes sense.
With that idea, I think a #2 pick makes sense.
Remember, Lebron was NOT a guarantee back then.

Lonzo is not being the engine he's supposed to be. Whether it be because the engine is the Big Fish in Lebron now, or Lonzo is just not bringing it consistently. Or both.

He's a smart kid. I'm hoping he figures it out.
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