OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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epak
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:11 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Ziggy wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
CRoost wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
His defense and passing are elite traits.

He's building from that foundation.

I can't say BI/Kuz/Hart have any elite traits that are developed at this point.

If you're focusing on his offense, no dispute there. It's a major work in progress.


I am yet to see anything in his passing that exceeds the norms for an NBA point guard. I keep waiting to see it, because so many of you insist that he has "elite court vision" and generational basketball IQ. I see him making the same sorts of passes as the average NBA point guard. Occasionally, he makes a great, high leverage pass. But so do all of the other NBA quality point guards. I want to believe that all of you are right and I am wrong, but when I watch the games, I just don't see what you see.


He's not a dribble the ball for 15 seconds, find someone curling and then pass.

He is the ultimate hockey assist guy too swiftly moving the ball to the open guy. But his vision is amazing.

I just don't think you'll see what we see. I feel you've already determined what a 21 year old's ceiling is at this point.


This is the most underappreciated about his game . The no dribble pass for easy transition basket directly or indirectly. I never saw anyone with that vision. It’s like he’s scanning everyone in a split second.


He's the antithesis of Rondo in certain respects. Rondo dribbles a lot and finds passing opportunities.

Lonzo moves the ball to create the opportunity or he moves the ball along. Doesn't seem like having the ball in his hands for extended times in the half court, which is perfect playing alongside a guy like LBJ.


Well said. Lonzo's assists would be higher if he were used as a hub. And I don't even mean as a dribble the ball hub, but just as a guy they go to when the offense breaks down and they set something up again. As it stands now, he rarely gets the ball back when the offense breaks down. We have Lebron to be that crutch.


This is why he works well with LBJ b/c as a hockey assist passer with LBJ you have a lot of floor vision.


I dont see it.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:13 pm    Post subject:

eddiejonze wrote:
That's because I have finally deduced you have never actually played basketball.


Whatever, man.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
eddiejonze wrote:
That's because I have finally deduced you have never actually played basketball.


Whatever, man.


Yeah. AH offers at least well-reasoned rationales for his skepticism, which in turns challenges my assumptions. I don't see why we need to lower the level of discourse to that.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject:

At around 8:10 in the 4th, Lakers down 95-87, Lonzo rebounds a Forbes missed three, but before he even lands the ground, he outlets in the air to Lebron who then goes the length for an And 1. That was the start of the Lebron show.

Subtle things like that, people don't recognize or understand. Most guards just come down with the ball, and possibly dribble up themselves. Then set the offense. Or perhaps, they come down, then see the outlet pass, but at that point, maybe Lebron's opening will have been gone. Not all rebounds and outlets are created equally.

His defense hasn't gotten enough attention from the mass media either because they're mesmerized by three pt makers. This guy should be untouchable and in due time, he will be appreciated.
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epak
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject:

I see.
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Last edited by epak on Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:35 pm; edited 4 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:23 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
At around 8:10 in the 4th, Lakers down 95-87, Lonzo rebounds a Forbes missed three, but before he even lands the ground, he outlets in the air to Lebron who then goes the length for an And 1. That was the start of the Lebron show.

Subtle things like that, people don't recognize or understand. Most guards just come down with the ball, and possibly dribble up themselves. Then set the offense. Or perhaps, they come down, then see the outlet pass, but at that point, maybe Lebron's opening will have been gone. Not all rebounds and outlets are created equally.

His defense hasn't gotten enough attention from the mass media either because they're mesmerized by three pt makers. This guy should be untouchable and in due time, he will be appreciated.


Yep very well said.
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AFireInside619
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:33 pm    Post subject:

I was watching “The Fumble” (shout out to the sexy Lakers fan Ty) and they were talking about the Wall Ball rumor. I made the mistake of reading the YouTube comments. Plenty of people still think Ball is a bust. I guess they don’t watch any games. He’s arguably the second most important player on the Lakers. Crappy players in the past got love because of their defense (Greg Anthony, Bruce Bowen, Doug Christie), but can’t play the game nearly as well as Zo.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
eddiejonze wrote:
That's because I have finally deduced you have never actually played basketball.


Whatever, man.


Yeah. AH offers at least well-reasoned rationales for his skepticism, which in turns challenges my assumptions. I don't see why we need to lower the level of discourse to that.


That's why we're lucky to have you, man.
Patient enough to explain things that others already see.
Props!

The discourse was already lowered people just are starting to match it- go scroll 20 pages back.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
At around 8:10 in the 4th, Lakers down 95-87, Lonzo rebounds a Forbes missed three, but before he even lands the ground, he outlets in the air to Lebron who then goes the length for an And 1. That was the start of the Lebron show.

Subtle things like that, people don't recognize or understand. Most guards just come down with the ball, and possibly dribble up themselves. Then set the offense. Or perhaps, they come down, then see the outlet pass, but at that point, maybe Lebron's opening will have been gone. Not all rebounds and outlets are created equally.

His defense hasn't gotten enough attention from the mass media either because they're mesmerized by three pt makers. This guy should be untouchable and in due time, he will be appreciated.



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:40 pm    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
I was watching “The Fumble” (shout out to the sexy Lakers fan Ty) and they were talking about the Wall Ball rumor. I made the mistake of reading the YouTube comments. Plenty of people still think Ball is a bust. I guess they don’t watch any games. He’s arguably the second most important player on the Lakers. Crappy players in the past got love because of their defense (Greg Anthony, Bruce Bowen, Doug Christie), but can’t play the game nearly as well as Zo.

Whether for Lonzo or not I'm gonna be really mad it we get Wall man.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:


https://media.giphy.com/media/kKLlJrPHjeR4Y9P82s/giphy.gif


This is amazing.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject:

Lonzo is the kind of guy where if youve played basketball you really appreciate his skills. He doesnt need to dribble for 15 seconds and get two different screens to make something happen. If you are open chances are he will find you. And he is always making passes that will try and take advantage of mismatches off the rebound in transition. It sounds arrogant but if you cant see how special Zo is i dont know what to tell you. I said it before, if he can average 15 points a game this dude is gonna be an all star for a long time.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:49 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
At around 8:10 in the 4th, Lakers down 95-87, Lonzo rebounds a Forbes missed three, but before he even lands the ground, he outlets in the air to Lebron who then goes the length for an And 1. That was the start of the Lebron show.

Subtle things like that, people don't recognize or understand. Most guards just come down with the ball, and possibly dribble up themselves. Then set the offense. Or perhaps, they come down, then see the outlet pass, but at that point, maybe Lebron's opening will have been gone. Not all rebounds and outlets are created equally.

His defense hasn't gotten enough attention from the mass media either because they're mesmerized by three pt makers. This guy should be untouchable and in due time, he will be appreciated.


https://media.giphy.com/media/kKLlJrPHjeR4Y9P82s/giphy.gif


So average.
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:52 pm    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
Lonzo is the kind of guy where if youve played basketball you really appreciate his skills. He doesnt need to dribble for 15 seconds and get two different screens to make something happen. If you are open chances are he will find you. And he is always making passes that will try and take advantage of mismatches off the rebound in transition. It sounds arrogant but if you cant see how special Zo is i dont know what to tell you. I said it before, if he can average 15 points a game this dude is gonna be an all star for a long time.


Yea it’s impossible not sound like an arrogant ass when you say stuff like that but you’re not wrong. I’m yet to come across somebody in real life who played or coached competitively that doesn’t see him as a quality starter at the very least. Most see him as more. I kinda use it as a barometer when talking to new people about ball.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:01 pm    Post subject:

Lonzo’s passing ability is definitely elite. I dont see how anyone can deny this
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
At around 8:10 in the 4th, Lakers down 95-87, Lonzo rebounds a Forbes missed three, but before he even lands the ground, he outlets in the air to Lebron who then goes the length for an And 1. That was the start of the Lebron show.

Subtle things like that, people don't recognize or understand. Most guards just come down with the ball, and possibly dribble up themselves. Then set the offense. Or perhaps, they come down, then see the outlet pass, but at that point, maybe Lebron's opening will have been gone. Not all rebounds and outlets are created equally.

His defense hasn't gotten enough attention from the mass media either because they're mesmerized by three pt makers. This guy should be untouchable and in due time, he will be appreciated.


https://media.giphy.com/media/kKLlJrPHjeR4Y9P82s/giphy.gif


Love that play, that’s Lonzo at his essence
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
Lonzo is the kind of guy where if youve played basketball you really appreciate his skills. He doesnt need to dribble for 15 seconds and get two different screens to make something happen. If you are open chances are he will find you. And he is always making passes that will try and take advantage of mismatches off the rebound in transition. It sounds arrogant but if you cant see how special Zo is i dont know what to tell you. I said it before, if he can average 15 points a game this dude is gonna be an all star for a long time.


When your teammate airballs multiple shots in the same game it deflates the whole team, there's no getting around that and if you've played basketball you'd appreciate that.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:28 pm    Post subject:

PauPau wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Lonzo is the kind of guy where if youve played basketball you really appreciate his skills. He doesnt need to dribble for 15 seconds and get two different screens to make something happen. If you are open chances are he will find you. And he is always making passes that will try and take advantage of mismatches off the rebound in transition. It sounds arrogant but if you cant see how special Zo is i dont know what to tell you. I said it before, if he can average 15 points a game this dude is gonna be an all star for a long time.


When your teammate airballs multiple shots in the same game it deflates the whole team, there's no getting around that and if you've played basketball you'd appreciate that.

It doesn't deflate the whole team and the ones who do get deflated are mentally weak and should probably practice cross country skiing.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:32 pm    Post subject:

Christopher Walken wrote:
PauPau wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Lonzo is the kind of guy where if youve played basketball you really appreciate his skills. He doesnt need to dribble for 15 seconds and get two different screens to make something happen. If you are open chances are he will find you. And he is always making passes that will try and take advantage of mismatches off the rebound in transition. It sounds arrogant but if you cant see how special Zo is i dont know what to tell you. I said it before, if he can average 15 points a game this dude is gonna be an all star for a long time.


When your teammate airballs multiple shots in the same game it deflates the whole team, there's no getting around that and if you've played basketball you'd appreciate that.

It doesn't deflate the whole team and the ones who do get deflated are mentally weak and should probably practice cross country skiing.

No coming back from those deflating airballs.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=bi6fftt43xo
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Christopher Walken wrote:
PauPau wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Lonzo is the kind of guy where if youve played basketball you really appreciate his skills. He doesnt need to dribble for 15 seconds and get two different screens to make something happen. If you are open chances are he will find you. And he is always making passes that will try and take advantage of mismatches off the rebound in transition. It sounds arrogant but if you cant see how special Zo is i dont know what to tell you. I said it before, if he can average 15 points a game this dude is gonna be an all star for a long time.


When your teammate airballs multiple shots in the same game it deflates the whole team, there's no getting around that and if you've played basketball you'd appreciate that.

It doesn't deflate the whole team and the ones who do get deflated are mentally weak and should probably practice cross country skiing.

No coming back from those deflating airballs.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=bi6fftt43xo


Ruined his career!!! 😂😂😂
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:41 pm    Post subject:

Christopher Walken wrote:
PauPau wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Lonzo is the kind of guy where if youve played basketball you really appreciate his skills. He doesnt need to dribble for 15 seconds and get two different screens to make something happen. If you are open chances are he will find you. And he is always making passes that will try and take advantage of mismatches off the rebound in transition. It sounds arrogant but if you cant see how special Zo is i dont know what to tell you. I said it before, if he can average 15 points a game this dude is gonna be an all star for a long time.


When your teammate airballs multiple shots in the same game it deflates the whole team, there's no getting around that and if you've played basketball you'd appreciate that.

It doesn't deflate the whole team and the ones who do get deflated are mentally weak and should probably practice cross country skiing.


So I take it you've never played basketball?
Watch the reactions of his teammates, listen to the crowd, the commentators when he goes on clank but specifically airball expedition.
Teammates feed on each others' energy; synergy.
When a team is shooting over 45% in a game behind the ark the players are in rhythm, the team is in rhythm regardless of who takes the shot.
If you'd played basketball before, you'd know that.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject:

Can we get a video of that mid air touch pass to McGee vs the Suns?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject:

eddiejonze wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I just don't think you'll see what we see. I feel you've already determined what a 21 year old's ceiling is at this point.


It didn't take long for this to turn into a string of ad hominem responses, but that's okay. I'm not talking about his ceiling. I'm talking about what he is doing right now. There is more evidence than just the eyeball test. After a couple decent games, his latest ORPM number is up to a -1.17. That is partly due to his shooting, which appears to be regressing. But if he is such an elite, valuable passer, it should be having a more tangible effect in the numbers. Ball is averaging 6 assists per 36 with an assist% of 21.5. Some of that is a by-product of playing with Lebron, but still, the numbers do not jump out at you. When I look at the leaguewide reactions to Ball, I see polite interest, but none of the gushing you see here. So for me, the eyeball test matches the numbers and external indicia, not the gushing on this board.

I'm not going to tell you that he can't become a better player. Of course he can. I'm telling you that, in the here and now, you might just be seeing what you want to see instead of what is really there.


That's because I have finally deduced you have never actually played basketball.
After reading your posts over the years (Painfully, reluctantly) and doing my darn best to not respond this is a moment I just can't pass up- I've figured you out guy.
You seem to really know your stats, how the salary cap works, and basically are a well versed analytics guy.
But players from the pro's on down to the darn weekly game I play at each and every week for the last 25 years- all see a guy in Lonzo that would be fun to play WITH: always play with your head up, cause he'll find you, and don't worry if you get picked, he'll pick up your man. Basically....
A PERFECT TEAMATE ON THE FLOOR
No stats will ever show that.


So true
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject:

PauPau wrote:
Christopher Walken wrote:
PauPau wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Lonzo is the kind of guy where if youve played basketball you really appreciate his skills. He doesnt need to dribble for 15 seconds and get two different screens to make something happen. If you are open chances are he will find you. And he is always making passes that will try and take advantage of mismatches off the rebound in transition. It sounds arrogant but if you cant see how special Zo is i dont know what to tell you. I said it before, if he can average 15 points a game this dude is gonna be an all star for a long time.


When your teammate airballs multiple shots in the same game it deflates the whole team, there's no getting around that and if you've played basketball you'd appreciate that.

It doesn't deflate the whole team and the ones who do get deflated are mentally weak and should probably practice cross country skiing.


So I take it you've never played basketball?
Watch the reactions of his teammates, listen to the crowd, the commentators when he goes on clank but specifically airball expedition.
Teammates feed on each others' energy; synergy.
When a team is shooting over 45% in a game behind the ark the players are in rhythm, the team is in rhythm regardless of who takes the shot.
If you'd played basketball before, you'd know that.


There is no time to get deflated. Because on the next play Lonzo would steal the ball and it would lead a brilliant pass for the score. Only lazy fans watch one side of the court.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Christopher Walken wrote:
PauPau wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
Lonzo is the kind of guy where if youve played basketball you really appreciate his skills. He doesnt need to dribble for 15 seconds and get two different screens to make something happen. If you are open chances are he will find you. And he is always making passes that will try and take advantage of mismatches off the rebound in transition. It sounds arrogant but if you cant see how special Zo is i dont know what to tell you. I said it before, if he can average 15 points a game this dude is gonna be an all star for a long time.


When your teammate airballs multiple shots in the same game it deflates the whole team, there's no getting around that and if you've played basketball you'd appreciate that.

It doesn't deflate the whole team and the ones who do get deflated are mentally weak and should probably practice cross country skiing.

No coming back from those deflating airballs.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=bi6fftt43xo


Ruined his career!!! 😂😂😂


Nice try lads.
Kobe was 18, straight outta high school, almost never played in the 4th and was thrust into the burner without prep.....yes, very comparable situations.

We can all see Lonzo's skills but it seems to me not everyone can see his weaknesses and if they can its a painful thing to acknowledge them, it shouldn't be.
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