Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35855 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 8:51 am Post subject: Kobe vs Olajuwon?
If Duncan is seen as having comparable impact to Kobe, and Hakeem is regarded as being better than Duncan, wouldn't that make Hakeem better than Kobe? I've never heard anyone claim that before though. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Kobe vs Olajuwon?
CandyCanes wrote:
If Duncan is seen as having comparable impact to Kobe, and Hakeem is regarded as being better than Duncan, wouldn't that make Hakeem better than Kobe? I've never heard anyone claim that before though.
I am not sure that Hakeem is generally considered better than Duncan. I normally see Duncan ranked above him.
Anyway, Hakeem tends to be near the bottom of the top 10 list primarily because he only has two rings and one MVPs.
Views of Hakeem are heavily dependent on how much importance people put on rings and defense.
People rarely compare Kobe and Hakeem because they played in different eras and different positions.
I tend to rate Kobe ahead of Hakeem but I see the argument for the other way.
in hakeem's case, regarding all the championships or lack of, it's kind of hard to win championships when the lakers, celtics, and bulls are doing damage during your prime. duncan would not have won anything in that era on the spurs, for example.
hakeem is clearly a more "skilled" player. Duncan clearly has more awards and championships. it's back to the same kobe vs lebron argument. hakeem had it way harder than duncan as far as team success goes. if performance is the concern, i don't many would choose a prime duncan over a prime hakeem. i know i wouldn't even consider it.
in hakeem's case, regarding all the championships or lack of, it's kind of hard to win championships when the lakers, celtics, and bulls are doing damage during your prime. duncan would not have won anything in that era on the spurs, for example..
Hakeem's problem was that he was surrounded by weak teammates, by GOAT standards, for most of his career. Even his two ring teams were pretty weak, scraping by with a number of 4-3 series.
Ironically, the Spurs first ring came when the Rockers were doing their Olajuwon/Barkley/Pippen last hurrah. Instead it ended up being Duncan's first hurrah.
Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Kobe vs Olajuwon?
CandyCanes wrote:
If Duncan is seen as having comparable impact to Kobe, and Hakeem is regarded as being better than Duncan, wouldn't that make Hakeem better than Kobe? I've never heard anyone claim that before though.
here's the truth about hakeem. truth is. the dream may be better for a team then a lot of our favorite players.
I will say this until i'm in the grave. aside from dirk. who else has one a ring in the modern era with no stars?
what other center has schooled shaq?
see even though i give dirk a ton of credit for pulling off the impossible without another star player(kidd was well beyond his prime.) we all still know dirk isnt some great passer, nor was he a great defender. if it wasnt for zone defense he would still be seen as a complete liability on defense.
but Hakeem.. wow. that guy could pass, could shoot, had the best post moves you've ever seen in life. could block shots with the best of em, could get steals with the best of em. was strong. could rebound with the best of em.
put it this way. If shaq was on houston and hakeem was with penny. penny would've had 3 or so rings before the injuries kicked in.
put it this way. if hakeem took duncan's spot on the spurs. the spurs would've had multiple back to back titles.
I don't believe that Hakeem is better than Duncan.
duncan was lucky he didnt have to run thru the same gambit of top flight guys at his position during his time. and most of the guys he played were shorter since tim was a center running to the pf spot to have a height advantage.
hakeem played better centers/bigs than timmy played.
^^thats mostly defense on a legendary drob.
sorry there isnt another big man better than the dream. there just isnt.
Hakeem embarrassed LEGENDS at the Center spot. He embarrased all of our modern era centers to be honest.
If Tim would've had to play against Hakeem in hakeems prime. Timmy would've been a victim too.
Rings don't tell the entire story in Hakeems career. He was very skilled, just look at his footwork. Such an amazing thing to witness. Also Hakeem played in the golden era of centers. Look at all the competition he played against.
Hakeem is not in tier A of all time big men. That group consists of Cap, Russell, Shaq, Duncan and Wilt. I'd group him in the next tier alongside KG, Robinson, Moses, Walton, et. al.
duncan was lucky he didnt have to run thru the same gambit of top flight guys at his position during his time. and most of the guys he played were shorter since tim was a center running to the pf spot to have a height advantage.
I'd say Duncan played PF during a great era for the position -- Garnett, Dirk, Malone, Rodman, Jermaine O'Neal, Elton Brand, Chris Webber.
He really was the start of the era where the skilled big men started to shift from center to PF.'
He really was a combo PF/C. He played mostly PF in the first half of his career and then C in the second half.
Joined: 03 Oct 2003 Posts: 8352 Location: Santa Monica
Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:41 am Post subject:
I love Hakeem's game, but his prime was really short - just 3-4 years. Duncan had much more longevity, but I never saw him as a "dominant" player. Even in games when he had say 30 points and 12 boards, it seemed like a quiet 30 points. It's a really good and hard debate. I'll say that in Hakeem's short lived prime, he was clearly a better player than Duncan was at his peak. _________________ Lakers 49ers Chargers Dodgers
I think Hakeem is viewed as being more skillful than Duncan (or perhaps any big man every), but I'd put Duncan over him because of his longevity and similar ability to play on both ends.
Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Kobe vs Olajuwon?
splashmtn wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
If Duncan is seen as having comparable impact to Kobe, and Hakeem is regarded as being better than Duncan, wouldn't that make Hakeem better than Kobe? I've never heard anyone claim that before though.
here's the truth about hakeem. truth is. the dream may be better for a team then a lot of our favorite players.
I will say this until i'm in the grave. aside from dirk. who else has one a ring in the modern era with no stars?
what other center has schooled shaq?
see even though i give dirk a ton of credit for pulling off the impossible without another star player(kidd was well beyond his prime.) we all still know dirk isnt some great passer, nor was he a great defender. if it wasnt for zone defense he would still be seen as a complete liability on defense.
but Hakeem.. wow. that guy could pass, could shoot, had the best post moves you've ever seen in life. could block shots with the best of em, could get steals with the best of em. was strong. could rebound with the best of em.
put it this way. If shaq was on houston and hakeem was with penny. penny would've had 3 or so rings before the injuries kicked in.
put it this way. if hakeem took duncan's spot on the spurs. the spurs would've had multiple back to back titles.
true true....and true.
especially the last point of swapping with duncan. yea, take prime hakeem (mid 80s to 90s) put him on the 1999-2010 spurs...parker, ginobli, ROBINSON, aldridge, david west, pau, etc, kawhi, lol.
now for the other part of the joke....put duncan on those rockets teams, lol.
I love Hakeem's game, but his prime was really short - just 3-4 years.
False. His peak years weren't even in the mid 90's when he won (he was in his early 30's then). They were in the late 80's to early 90's, when he still had freak athleticism. He was a better scorer when we won but look at the rets of his numbers.
Dream got to the Finals in year 2. If he had more help from 87-the mid 90's then he would be remembered differently.
Hakeem is not in tier A of all time big men. That group consists of Cap, Russell, Shaq, Duncan and Wilt. I'd group him in the next tier alongside KG, Robinson, Moses, Walton, et. al.
Hakeem beat Shaq with no other star player on that roster.
How on earth are you putting shaq above the dream? Just because hakeem was older than shaq and therefore starting falling off when shaq started to rise?
if hakeem would've had the talent that shaq played with in penny and lets say shaq was on the rockets. hakeem and the magic would've won that series.
if hakeem had kobe as a side kick. hakeem would have not only won those 3 rings. But he would've won 5 guaranteed. Hakeem was not as dominant in the physical dept. But he was so dominant with his athleticism and skill. its still unmatched til this very day.
Kareem doesnt have the footwork of hakeem. and kareem is probably the best center ever.
I aint putting wilt up their seeing as though wilt had insane numbers but mostly vs inferior competition and still didnt bring home a ton of rings.
Lol at dream being anyone's 2nd tier center. crazy.
and just because russell won a lot in the era where their were few teams doesnt mean he himself is this superb top level center above the rest.
Joined: 03 Oct 2003 Posts: 8352 Location: Santa Monica
Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 2:57 pm Post subject:
Dreamshake wrote:
slavavov wrote:
I love Hakeem's game, but his prime was really short - just 3-4 years.
False. His peak years weren't even in the mid 90's when he won (he was in his early 30's then). They were in the late 80's to early 90's, when he still had freak athleticism. He was a better scorer when we won but look at the rets of his numbers.
Dream got to the Finals in year 2. If he had more help from 87-the mid 90's then he would be remembered differently.
I disagree. His rebounding numbers may have been lower in the mid 90s, but his PER was higher. I'm not a fan of advanced stats, but if PER is a reliable stat, then it shows that Hakeem's best years overall were from about 93-96. Hakeem was a really good/great player before that, but in the mid 90s he moved up to being a truly dominant player.
And yeah, it's a shame he was stuck on mediocre teams in the late 80s and early 90s. Hakeem was probably the most skilled center of all time. He's underrated in a lot of ways. _________________ Lakers 49ers Chargers Dodgers
the thing about Duncan to consider as well is system he benefited in playing in for basically his entire career.
How much better would other greats have looked if they played with their ideal team their entire career? _________________ (bleep) Kawhi
I disagree. His rebounding numbers may have been lower in the mid 90s, but his PER was higher.
And PER doesn't properly account for defense. Not only was he grabbing more boards, but he was getting over 4 blocks and 2 steals a night.
Dream was at his best when he was still an athletic freak. Give him his mid 90's squads and you would see the same results. This isn't a situation of someone having to develop to a point where they were dominant. Hakeem got to the Finals in year 2 with help, with a 27/12/2/3.5/2 playoff avg.
It's not as if Duncan had great help. Tony Parker and Ginobli aren't elite players. He did more with equal talent than Hakeem did. Duncan was the better overall player.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
