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| Which Sports Figure Has Experienced the Greatest Rise and Fall? |
| Mark McGwire |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Tiger Woods |
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15% |
[ 7 ] |
| Barry Bonds |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Lance Armstrong |
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13% |
[ 6 ] |
| Mike Tyson |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Pete Rose |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Donald Sterling |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
| O.J. Simpson |
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69% |
[ 32 ] |
| Other |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 46 |
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lakersken80
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 Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Hard to play golf with recurring back problems. Tiger has had that ailment for years. Thats why he won't be able play in the senior tour once he hangs it up (some say he's already done). Even if he somehow makes it back, the game has already moved on without him, he'll have a tough time just winning a regular golf tournament when he can't even make the cut for the weekend anymore. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | I guess I feel that way because Tiger was pretty much considered the greatest golfer of all time at the time that it happened. More people would've said Tiger than Jack at that time. Now, with how young his greatness ended (did he even win a major after age 30?), I'd say that the majority would say Jack is the GOAT.
So you have a guy who was considered the GOAT in his sport, at an age where you can still play well for 15, 20 more years in some cases, and in one night, he was essentially donezo. What OJ did was clearly more egregious, and I can understand why people would say him (in response to this thread's question). I guess Tiger's fall was more shocking for me, personally. |
A lot of people are still going to rank Tiger as the GOAT. I'm one of them. That's a different discussion, though.
More to the point, here is my counterpoint to your argument. Tiger's dominance ended because of injuries. It wasn't his divorce. It wasn't this latest thing with the DUI. It was his knee, his leg, and his back. He came back once, won player of the year again, and then his body gave out again. There are mental aspects to this, too, but that's true for every golfer. If his body had held up, he would probably still be winning golf tournaments, even with the scandals.
So is an "injury fall" really as bad as the things that happened to OJ, Lance, and others? Should Kobe be on this list because of his injuries? Should Magic? Not in my book, but YMMV. |
What I would say to this (and it's very reasonable, by the way, on your part) is that I think Tiger's air of invincibility was stripped away that night, as well as who the public thought he was. And I just believe that it changed him and that he never was the same mentally. I realize that Y.E. Yang had come back to beat him at the PGA a little before this happened, and that was the first time that Tiger had been beaten when he had (or shared) the 54-hole lead at a major. But he still had this aura of invincibility and he had a mental edge over the rest of the golfing world.
I just think that he was changed forever mentally when this all came crashing down on him. He still played well in spurts after the incident--as you mentioned, even won POY once--but he wasn't close to the same at the majors. I do believe that he eventually would have become a shell of himself due to the injuries, yes. But I think the downfall all started with the mental aspect of it.
Also, regardless of why he fell, I still consider it to be the most shocking fall from grace. He was a 33-year-old in the absolute prime of his celebrity, at the very least. You could make an argument that he was already starting the downside of his career, given that he had already experienced injury problems and that he was probably unlikely to win, say, 10 more majors. But passing Nicklaus was seen as a fait accompli. And the dude was pretty much a beloved figure around the world. He was a global icon. O.J. was simply not that. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| pmacla wrote: | There was a time when OJ was considered the GOAT hell he got 2000 yards in 14 games still holds record for most yards gained per game in a season and in an era where this was rare was loved and accepted by the white community
All Tiger did was get caught screwing around lose focus and get hurt
OJ got exposed for who he really was and went from beloved to hated in an instant No one hates Tiger just dont see him as the GOAT anymore |
Not to mention, Tiger is still ALLOWED to even participate in his sport (when he can physically do so) and is NOT behind bars.
OJ was a top tier athlete, celebrity and social icon who became a double murderer and general scumbag sitting in a Nevada prison.
Tiger's just a GOAT who has a couple of controversies and can't play like he used to, but he's not a social pariah.
Not even close in my mind.
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panamaniac
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| OJ by a landslide. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I see the POV of those who think it's OJ here. The question was "greatest" rise and fall, and not "most shocking" rise and fall. I'd still say Tiger if it was "shocking." OJ had been long retired and, though he was still a celebrity, his level of celebrity at the time was nowhere near what Tiger's was. That said, OJ became the most notorious sports figure maybe ever as the trial was going on, so I get that.
Personally, the Tiger fall surprised me more, and I'd also point out that OJ was actually acquitted of the murder charges. He would've still been a free man had it not been for the armed robbery years later. And if we're just going off of his freedom being lost, Aaron Hernandez isn't even alive anymore. And it wasn't just that it was revealed that Tiger was cheating on his wife: the details that came out were lurid and quite salacious. I guess most of the public didn't know about OJ's past domestic violence, but it was out there, so in that sense, was it that huge of a leap that he could murder the same woman that he had previously assaulted?
Anyway, I digress. I think my mind has been changed regarding the poll question as it's worded. I wonder if anyone would change their answer if the question was "which person's fall surprised you more?", though. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | I guess I see the POV of those who think it's OJ here. The question was "greatest" rise and fall, and not "most shocking" rise and fall. I'd still say Tiger if it was "shocking." OJ had been long retired and, though he was still a celebrity, his level of celebrity at the time was nowhere near what Tiger's was. That said, OJ became the most notorious sports figure maybe ever as the trial was going on, so I get that.
Personally, the Tiger fall surprised me more, and I'd also point out that OJ was actually acquitted of the murder charges. He would've still been a free man had it not been for the armed robbery years later. And if we're just going off of his freedom being lost, Aaron Hernandez isn't even alive anymore. And it wasn't just that it was revealed that Tiger was cheating on his wife: the details that came out were lurid and quite salacious. I guess most of the public didn't know about OJ's past domestic violence, but it was out there, so in that sense, was it that huge of a leap that he could murder the same woman that he had previously assaulted?
Anyway, I digress. I think my mind has been changed regarding the poll question as it's worded. I wonder if anyone would change their answer if the question was "which person's fall surprised you more?", though. |
Tigers fall hasn't really been that great and it has been as much due to physical ailments as the couple of sordid incidents. I mean he's made tour appearances and it's been the injuries that are his biggest barrier, meanwhile he still has a prolific brand and recognizability.
OJ's acquittal really doesn't come into play in this equation because despite the verdict, most people were convinced of his guilt and his behavior during and after the subsequent trial just furthered that.
Hernandez is a non-participant in the comparison because he was not a household name when he committed his crimes. Simpson and Woods were immediately recognizable to even non-sports fans.
As for the changing of the question to whose fall surprised me more, I personally would go with Tiger, because we saw him from his youth (I remember his Merv Griffin appearance when he was a little kid) and he seemed like a decent, dedicated guy in a clean cut sport. On the OJ side, I was already aware of his abusive side well before the murders took place. So while the murders were surprising, I wasn't completely shocked.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Stu --
Yes, I agree with that. Tiger surprised me more. Tiger seemed to have his life so . . . choreographed, I guess. It was like everything was planned out and under control. When he got hurt, I suspected right away that it was a bigger deal than people thought. I remember being mocked for saying that, maybe even on this board. When he came back the following year and played well, I thought that I might have been wrong. Then came the scandal, which no one expected. This totally choreographed nerd was a sex addict who was banging porn stars on the side?
OJ had cultivated a popular public image, but no one knew that much about his personal life. It was a surprise, but he never had the image of being someone who was totally in control of his life. |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| OJ was a big as celebrity as they came during the 70's-early 90's. He was in Hollywood, commercials, and even on NBC. So while he wasn't known worldwide around the world before the double murder, in the US he was basically a household name. |
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Frankly, in terms of celebrity and fame, I think OJ would be second to last on this list (only ahead Sterling). I think Tiger would likely be at the top. So, while OJ may have had a greater fall, Tiger had a greater rise. That's the best argument for Tiger, but, still, OJ's fall was so steep (and continues to be so steep) its hard not to vote for him.
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ocho
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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The answers here seem to depend on how people interpret the question.
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Stu --
Yes, I agree with that. Tiger surprised me more. Tiger seemed to have his life so . . . choreographed, I guess. It was like everything was planned out and under control. When he got hurt, I suspected right away that it was a bigger deal than people thought. I remember being mocked for saying that, maybe even on this board. When he came back the following year and played well, I thought that I might have been wrong. Then came the scandal, which no one expected. This totally choreographed nerd was a sex addict who was banging porn stars on the side?
OJ had cultivated a popular public image, but no one knew that much about his personal life. It was a surprise, but he never had the image of being someone who was totally in control of his life. |
Perfect way of putting it.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Stu --
Yes, I agree with that. Tiger surprised me more. Tiger seemed to have his life so . . . choreographed, I guess. It was like everything was planned out and under control. When he got hurt, I suspected right away that it was a bigger deal than people thought. I remember being mocked for saying that, maybe even on this board. When he came back the following year and played well, I thought that I might have been wrong. Then came the scandal, which no one expected. This totally choreographed nerd was a sex addict who was banging porn stars on the side?
OJ had cultivated a popular public image, but no one knew that much about his personal life. It was a surprise, but he never had the image of being someone who was totally in control of his life. |
Perfect way of putting it. |
Yes, that was stated well. As for the part about Tiger's sexual escapades, I mean, the details that emerged were just so...sordid. It wasn't that he was just cheating on his wife, which I, personally, am not going to crucify a person over. (Statistically, infidelity occurs in the majority of marriages.) It's that the details were so salacious. Not to rehash this, but the unprotected sex, the explicit details of his communications with the women he was having affairs with, etc...it was just all so graphic, the way it came out. It was genuinely stunning. |
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pmacla
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:26 am Post subject: |
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anyone who is surprised by any athlete or celebrities sexcapades is just being naive, they get whoever whenever they want I dont care what the public image is all of them have lots of skeletons in the closet and pay to keep them there
As someone stated earlier people forget that OJ was the first black athlete to be the face of a National ad campaign and also wasnt like he was out of limelight when the murders happened, he had just done the NFL playoffs on NBC the winter before them also, OJ's image was just as craftly if not more craftly created for the public eye. Hell, you could argue Tiger was following the mold OJ created to create the public perception of who he was while living a totally different life |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| pmacla wrote: | | anyone who is surprised by any athlete or celebrities sexcapades is just being naive, they get whoever whenever they want I dont care what the public image is all of them have lots of skeletons in the closet and pay to keep them there |
I am sure everyone is well aware that the opportunity for that behavior readily exists. But that doesn't mean that every athlete/celebrity engages in it.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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audioaxes
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | I believe that it's Tiger and here's why: he was at the height of his dominance when this happened. The dude was a legit superstar athlete. We're talking about worldwide phenomenon. And he was swinging a golf club, not playing basketball or soccer.
And it just came out of nowhere. I do believe that those who closely followed golf kind of knew that Tiger was actually a bit of a jerk, but he had so carefully crafted this public image as that of a family man, even if he was certainly quite fiery on the golf course. And it was just such a sordid scandal, the way it came out and was revealed.
And he's essentially never been the same since the scandal. He did have some moments and won some more tournaments--heck, I think he even led the Tour in wins in one of his seasons after the scandal--but he was absolutely never, ever the same. And, of course, he's been ruined for a while now as his body has betrayed him.
Again, I don't think it can be understated how much of a star this guy was, how much of a celebrity he was, and he was completely at the top of the mountain. It was not really a surprise that Lance Armstrong got caught doping. (Cycling was the dirtiest sport in the world at the time.) And while the O.J. stuff was obviously a remarkable fall from grace, I don't think it's the same because he had long since retired, obviously. |
I never understood the amount of attention Tiger got for his marriage affairs. Yes having an affair is bad but its pretty much the norm with pro athletes so I dont really consider this a real fall. But there is no denying there is a huge correlation with this scandal and his on the course troubles.
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| audioaxes wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | I believe that it's Tiger and here's why: he was at the height of his dominance when this happened. The dude was a legit superstar athlete. We're talking about worldwide phenomenon. And he was swinging a golf club, not playing basketball or soccer.
And it just came out of nowhere. I do believe that those who closely followed golf kind of knew that Tiger was actually a bit of a jerk, but he had so carefully crafted this public image as that of a family man, even if he was certainly quite fiery on the golf course. And it was just such a sordid scandal, the way it came out and was revealed.
And he's essentially never been the same since the scandal. He did have some moments and won some more tournaments--heck, I think he even led the Tour in wins in one of his seasons after the scandal--but he was absolutely never, ever the same. And, of course, he's been ruined for a while now as his body has betrayed him.
Again, I don't think it can be understated how much of a star this guy was, how much of a celebrity he was, and he was completely at the top of the mountain. It was not really a surprise that Lance Armstrong got caught doping. (Cycling was the dirtiest sport in the world at the time.) And while the O.J. stuff was obviously a remarkable fall from grace, I don't think it's the same because he had long since retired, obviously. |
I never understood the amount of attention Tiger got for his marriage affairs. Yes having an affair is bad but its pretty much the norm with pro athletes so I dont really consider this a real fall. But there is no denying there is a huge correlation with this scandal and his on the course troubles. |
Again, I don't think it was just that it came out that he cheated on his wife. That would've been a big news story for a week and then it would've passed. It was the utter salaciousness of the details of the cheating. Because of that, I think that a lot of people simply couldn't look at him the same way again. Stuff that was so fircely private was revealed. And maybe Tiger, mentally, was changed from the fact that people couldn't look at him the same way again. Maybe it was like the protective cloak that was around him--that privacy--was forever gone. |
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LAkers 4 Life
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hulk Hogan, brother  |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Which Sports Figure Has Experienced the Greatest Rise and Fall? |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | | Just thought of this given Tiger's most recent troubles. Maybe he is the answer. Thoughts? |
naw. its OJ and its not even close.
Their are still people who believe or lie to themselves and say just maybe tiger could come back and do it one more time. I'm almost one of those people.
everytime we think of the juice aka OJ. We picture him on the freeway in that white bronco. and thats the best we can picture him. at worse, some picture him as a murderer.
I almost reached to click on Lance Armstrong. Because he was so big and then that fall. wooo. that fall. You know what. come to think of it. you can almost say At least OJ has a following of some sort even if it's for the wrong thing.
No one. I mean No one cares about lance right now. So maybe it is lance. |
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tox
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | I guess I feel that way because Tiger was pretty much considered the greatest golfer of all time at the time that it happened. More people would've said Tiger than Jack at that time. Now, with how young his greatness ended (did he even win a major after age 30?), I'd say that the majority would say Jack is the GOAT.
So you have a guy who was considered the GOAT in his sport, at an age where you can still play well for 15, 20 more years in some cases, and in one night, he was essentially donezo. What OJ did was clearly more egregious, and I can understand why people would say him (in response to this thread's question). I guess Tiger's fall was more shocking for me, personally. |
A lot of people are still going to rank Tiger as the GOAT. I'm one of them. That's a different discussion, though.
More to the point, here is my counterpoint to your argument. Tiger's dominance ended because of injuries. It wasn't his divorce. It wasn't this latest thing with the DUI. It was his knee, his leg, and his back. He came back once, won player of the year again, and then his body gave out again. There are mental aspects to this, too, but that's true for every golfer. If his body had held up, he would probably still be winning golf tournaments, even with the scandals.
So is an "injury fall" really as bad as the things that happened to OJ, Lance, and others? Should Kobe be on this list because of his injuries? Should Magic? Not in my book, but YMMV. |
Now I regret choosing Tiger. Great points |
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Huey Lewis & The News
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Len Bias
potential for greatness as a freshman but not much more
become an All-American
lead ACC in scoring and win POY
cap off college career with great performance in OT victory over tarheels
win another ACC POY
drafted #2 by the Celtics
lease a brand new car
sign million dollar shoe deal
dab for three hours straight with your friends in your dorm room, life is (bleep) amazing
die
no fall from grace, no crazy sexual trysts, no kardashians, no methodone, no Sheryl crow
you're just dead
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | audioaxes wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | I believe that it's Tiger and here's why: he was at the height of his dominance when this happened. The dude was a legit superstar athlete. We're talking about worldwide phenomenon. And he was swinging a golf club, not playing basketball or soccer.
And it just came out of nowhere. I do believe that those who closely followed golf kind of knew that Tiger was actually a bit of a jerk, but he had so carefully crafted this public image as that of a family man, even if he was certainly quite fiery on the golf course. And it was just such a sordid scandal, the way it came out and was revealed.
And he's essentially never been the same since the scandal. He did have some moments and won some more tournaments--heck, I think he even led the Tour in wins in one of his seasons after the scandal--but he was absolutely never, ever the same. And, of course, he's been ruined for a while now as his body has betrayed him.
Again, I don't think it can be understated how much of a star this guy was, how much of a celebrity he was, and he was completely at the top of the mountain. It was not really a surprise that Lance Armstrong got caught doping. (Cycling was the dirtiest sport in the world at the time.) And while the O.J. stuff was obviously a remarkable fall from grace, I don't think it's the same because he had long since retired, obviously. |
I never understood the amount of attention Tiger got for his marriage affairs. Yes having an affair is bad but its pretty much the norm with pro athletes so I dont really consider this a real fall. But there is no denying there is a huge correlation with this scandal and his on the course troubles. |
Again, I don't think it was just that it came out that he cheated on his wife. That would've been a big news story for a week and then it would've passed. It was the utter salaciousness of the details of the cheating. Because of that, I think that a lot of people simply couldn't look at him the same way again. Stuff that was so fircely private was revealed. And maybe Tiger, mentally, was changed from the fact that people couldn't look at him the same way again. Maybe it was like the protective cloak that was around him--that privacy--was forever gone. |
You're absolutely right. If he simply had been discovered too have had a mistress, it would have been a minor blip in the news cycle. It was what came out after that night he crashed his car into the tree after Elin chased him off - the whole sex addict, numerous affairs aspect of it was what blew it up.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:47 am Post subject: Re: Which Sports Figure Has Experienced the Greatest Rise and Fall? |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | No one. I mean No one cares about lance right now. So maybe it is lance. |
My case against picking Lance:
1. There were a lot of us who thought he was a doper all along. We were a minority, at least in the US. Still, there was always dissension. Even if you were a huge Lance fan, you knew that there were those of us who thought he was a fraud. You knew that there were some red flags (books, lawsuits), even if you chose to believe Lance's denials. This was not true for OJ.
2. In fact, there is a considerable amount of truth in the standard defense of Lance: "They all do it." Cycling is a cesspool of doping. In fact, they don't all do it, and even among dopers, Lance cranked it up to 11. Still, it's not like this came out of the clear blue sky, like OJ murdering two people or Tiger being a sex addict.
3. It's freaking cycling. Almost no one in this country gives a flip about cycling. The whole Lance Armstrong thing was a weird bandwagon phenomenon that had a lot to do with beating the snotty French at their own sport. The Tour de France barely even makes the news now. This does not change the fact that Lance Armstrong DID become a big deal, but it made it a lot easier for the public to move on. You can't watch a golf tournament without hearing someone talk about Tiger, and OJ's name still comes up in football even though his prime was over 40 years ago. |
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Basketball Fan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| pmacla wrote: | anyone who is surprised by any athlete or celebrities sexcapades is just being naive, they get whoever whenever they want I dont care what the public image is all of them have lots of skeletons in the closet and pay to keep them there
As someone stated earlier people forget that OJ was the first black athlete to be the face of a National ad campaign and also wasnt like he was out of limelight when the murders happened, he had just done the NFL playoffs on NBC the winter before them also, OJ's image was just as craftly if not more craftly created for the public eye. Hell, you could argue Tiger was following the mold OJ created to create the public perception of who he was while living a totally different life |
I really hate it when people compare Tiger to OJ especially since Tiger just cheated on his wife which is a run of the mill scandal for athletes.
OJ OTOH spawned the trial of the century and altered America forever reality TV shows spawned and foisted the Kardashians on the public we have never been able to get rid of them ever since... |
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lakersken80
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Joined: 12 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Basketball Fan wrote: | | pmacla wrote: | anyone who is surprised by any athlete or celebrities sexcapades is just being naive, they get whoever whenever they want I dont care what the public image is all of them have lots of skeletons in the closet and pay to keep them there
As someone stated earlier people forget that OJ was the first black athlete to be the face of a National ad campaign and also wasnt like he was out of limelight when the murders happened, he had just done the NFL playoffs on NBC the winter before them also, OJ's image was just as craftly if not more craftly created for the public eye. Hell, you could argue Tiger was following the mold OJ created to create the public perception of who he was while living a totally different life |
I really hate it when people compare Tiger to OJ especially since Tiger just cheated on his wife which is a run of the mill scandal for athletes.
OJ OTOH spawned the trial of the century and altered America forever reality TV shows spawned and foisted the Kardashians on the public we have never been able to get rid of them ever since... |
It was a 2 for 1 deal...damn you OJ....  |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | Stu --
Yes, I agree with that. Tiger surprised me more. Tiger seemed to have his life so . . . choreographed, I guess. It was like everything was planned out and under control. When he got hurt, I suspected right away that it was a bigger deal than people thought. I remember being mocked for saying that, maybe even on this board. When he came back the following year and played well, I thought that I might have been wrong. Then came the scandal, which no one expected. This totally choreographed nerd was a sex addict who was banging porn stars on the side?
OJ had cultivated a popular public image, but no one knew that much about his personal life. It was a surprise, but he never had the image of being someone who was totally in control of his life. |
Yeah, surprise is one thing but being widely considered a homicidal double murderer is literally on a whole other plane of consideration. Not even in the same galaxy imo. The level of surprise is independent of the fall from grace. OJ is in prison ffs.
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