So Where is KD in the all time great ranking now? MVP checked, NBA finals MVP check, multi scoring champs checked, championship ring checked
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject:

marga86 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
marga86 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
marga86 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
marga86 wrote:
people say how well lebron played, but i felt he stacked his stats in the first half. s.



Perceptions are interesting. His actual stats were:

21/5/5 in the first half.

20/8/3 In the second half.


wasnt long before the lebronsexuals showed up


I understand. Actual facts can be very inconvenient and hard to deal with


how were his shooting percentages per quarter?

I too understand that you need to defend him in every post.



Lebron isnít an emotional topic for me. I feel no need to defend him or attack him.

I am emotional about facts. It bothers me we are in an age when people make up facts, and when their errors are pointed out, they become upset and defensive.

But I get that many more people are the opposite of me -- they are emotional about players and indifferent to or casual about facts.


I'm not upset, nor defensive. You look at numbers and derive factual conclusions, but how often do you explain their context?

I do find it funny that you come on every post that has something negative to say about lebron and constantly defend em



You are wrong. I donít think I defend Lebron. I defend facts.

In this thread, someone declared in the last playoff game Lebron compiled all his stats in the first half. I wondered if that was true, so I (and I know this is rare) actually looked up the stats. I found the person was wrong.

I did nothing more than post Lebronís points/rebounds/assist line from each half, which were more or less equal.

I don't consider that a defense of Lebron. It's an attack on lazy arguments and intellectually slothful people who make up facts because they are too lazy to look them up.

And I do that a lot because it irritates me when people make up facts or simply assume that facts support their beliefs without taking 30 seconds to look them up.

And I've done the same for many other players -- Kobe, Magic, Shaq, Kareem, West, Oscar, Duncan and on and on. It's just that people notice it more, and are irritated by it more, when it involves Lebron, because Lebron irritates them. And it often irritates them that I have no emotional feelings about Lebron and just point out factual errors.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject:

activeverb: For a guy that doesn't care about LeBron, you sure love to talk about LeBron on a thread that isn't even about him.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject:

IceInMyVeins wrote:
activeverb: For a guy that doesn't care about LeBron, you sure love to talk about LeBron on a thread that isn't even about him.


Not really. I like to talk about things like factual errors and methodologies to rank players. Unfortunately, those arguments usually get wrapped around Lebron and Kobe, because that's what people here care about.

For example, in a recent thread about ranking players, someone made the same claim you just did that I was obsessed about Lebron. I replied I would rather be talking about Kareem, because we could discuss the topic without the emotion that Lebron and Kobe bring up here.

People said, "Sure!" Guess what happened. I posted about Kareem and crickets. No one cared about the discussion when it didn't involved Lebron and Kobe.

That's just the way things are on LG.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:01 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
IceInMyVeins wrote:
activeverb: For a guy that doesn't care about LeBron, you sure love to talk about LeBron on a thread that isn't even about him.


Not really. I like to talk about things like factual errors and methodologies to rank players. Unfortunately, those arguments usually get wrapped around Lebron and Kobe, because that's what people here care about.

For example, in a recent thread about ranking players, someone made the same claim you just did that I was obsessed about Lebron. I replied I would rather be talking about Kareem, because we could discuss the topic without the emotion that Lebron and Kobe bring up here.

People said, "Sure!" Guess what happened. I posted about Kareem and crickets. No one cared about the discussion when it didn't involved Lebron and Kobe.

That's just the way things are on LG.


Well the thread is about Durant and since then it's been LeBron LeBron LeBron. Can you drop it?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:04 am    Post subject:

his championship ring and everyone he gets on this Warriors team has an asterisk
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject:

IceInMyVeins wrote:
activeverb wrote:
IceInMyVeins wrote:
activeverb: For a guy that doesn't care about LeBron, you sure love to talk about LeBron on a thread that isn't even about him.


Not really. I like to talk about things like factual errors and methodologies to rank players. Unfortunately, those arguments usually get wrapped around Lebron and Kobe, because that's what people here care about.

For example, in a recent thread about ranking players, someone made the same claim you just did that I was obsessed about Lebron. I replied I would rather be talking about Kareem, because we could discuss the topic without the emotion that Lebron and Kobe bring up here.

People said, "Sure!" Guess what happened. I posted about Kareem and crickets. No one cared about the discussion when it didn't involved Lebron and Kobe.

That's just the way things are on LG.


Well the thread is about Durant and since then it's been LeBron LeBron LeBron. Can you drop it?


Dude, you've posted in this thread four times. Only once did you talk about Durant. The other times you were talking about Durant.

So if this thread is drifting, you are as much the reason as anyone. So rather than try to dictate what other people talk about, police yourself.


Last edited by activeverb on Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:28 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
IceInMyVeins wrote:
activeverb wrote:
IceInMyVeins wrote:
activeverb: For a guy that doesn't care about LeBron, you sure love to talk about LeBron on a thread that isn't even about him.


Not really. I like to talk about things like factual errors and methodologies to rank players. Unfortunately, those arguments usually get wrapped around Lebron and Kobe, because that's what people here care about.

For example, in a recent thread about ranking players, someone made the same claim you just did that I was obsessed about Lebron. I replied I would rather be talking about Kareem, because we could discuss the topic without the emotion that Lebron and Kobe bring up here.

People said, "Sure!" Guess what happened. I posted about Kareem and crickets. No one cared about the discussion when it didn't involved Lebron and Kobe.

That's just the way things are on LG.


Well the thread is about Durant and since then it's been LeBron LeBron LeBron. Can you drop it?


The irony is you are the one who engaged me about Lebron, so if the thread is drifting from Durant you are part of the reason that's happening. So rather than tell me not to respond to other posters, you should police yourself.


Yep, and that was a long time ago. Then you kept on derailing the thread.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:32 am    Post subject:

IceInMyVeins wrote:
activeverb wrote:
IceInMyVeins wrote:
activeverb wrote:
IceInMyVeins wrote:
activeverb: For a guy that doesn't care about LeBron, you sure love to talk about LeBron on a thread that isn't even about him.


Not really. I like to talk about things like factual errors and methodologies to rank players. Unfortunately, those arguments usually get wrapped around Lebron and Kobe, because that's what people here care about.

For example, in a recent thread about ranking players, someone made the same claim you just did that I was obsessed about Lebron. I replied I would rather be talking about Kareem, because we could discuss the topic without the emotion that Lebron and Kobe bring up here.

People said, "Sure!" Guess what happened. I posted about Kareem and crickets. No one cared about the discussion when it didn't involved Lebron and Kobe.

That's just the way things are on LG.


Well the thread is about Durant and since then it's been LeBron LeBron LeBron. Can you drop it?


The irony is you are the one who engaged me about Lebron, so if the thread is drifting from Durant you are part of the reason that's happening. So rather than tell me not to respond to other posters, you should police yourself.


Yep, and that was a long time ago. Then you kept on derailing the thread.



Dude, your first comment on the first page of this thread was about Durant. Your second comment was about Lebron. Since then you have not talked about Durant at all.

If you don't want this thread to be about Lebron, quit talking about him. I have only been responding to people. I have not instituted any of the discussion. You're the one doing that.

So here's a clue: Have the discipline not to respond to this, and you will help keep the thread focused away from Lebron. If you do respond, you're doing the opposite.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject:

#SomeoneIsSalty
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject:

I would take no stats over blind usage of them.. if your stats were so good your words would not be necessary anyways. (full respect to that poster here)

activeverb wrote:
marga86 wrote:
people say how well lebron played, but i felt he stacked his stats in the first half. s.

Perceptions are interesting. His actual stats were:
21/5/5 in the first half.
20/8/3 In the second half.


That doesn't prove much. What stats would prove his intent was to pad his stats so post-game he could claim "nothing else i can do"? Lebron's own attitude proves what his goal was and i'll agree he wasn't padding. But he was motivated to have an impressive individual game so that no fingers could point at him while he throws everyone under the bus again.

composite wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
this is very different than the pistons hounding mj, and mj fighting for those points etc. they aren't even breathing heavy for these all important finals games. it's so easy.


It's amazing how people's recollections of MJ are so different than reality:
MJ's average minutes/per game vs Detroit: 40.0
LBJ's average minutes/per game vs GS in 2017: 42.4
KD's average minutes/per game vs CLE in 2017: 39.7


The fact that jordan kept pace with Lbj/durant in todays game, and Mj did it vs the bad boy pistons is pretty impressive.

back on topic - previously i was going to essentially put him just slightly ahead of Westbrook if he won. Then he had a great finals and need to see his body of work when it's over.

Some more rings and he's around Worthy? Lower if Lbj has a comeback, higher if Lbj never sees another parade.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject:

IceInMyVeins wrote:
#SomeoneIsSalty



So youíve posted in this thread 5 times, and only 1 of your posts was about Durant. But you are upset that other people are not talking about him.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:46 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
IceInMyVeins wrote:
#SomeoneIsSalty



So youíve posted in this thread 5 times, and only 1 of your posts was about Durant. But you are upset that other people are not talking about him.




And he keeps derailing the thread...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:54 am    Post subject:

AshesToAshes wrote:
I would take no stats over blind usage of them.. if your stats were so good your words would not be necessary anyways. (full respect to that poster here)

activeverb wrote:
marga86 wrote:
people say how well lebron played, but i felt he stacked his stats in the first half. s.

Perceptions are interesting. His actual stats were:
21/5/5 in the first half.
20/8/3 In the second half.


That doesn't prove much. What stats would prove his intent was to pad his stats so post-game he could claim "nothing else i can do"? Lebron's own attitude proves what his goal was and i'll agree he wasn't padding. But he was motivated to have an impressive individual game so that no fingers could point at him while he throws everyone under the bus again. .



I don't pretend I can read minds. I don't pretend to be able to discern player's "intent."

The fact is Lebron's stats were pretty identical in the first and second half.

And I really can't see any criticism in a player wanting to have an impressive individual game.; I think any player hopes to do that every game. The guy averaged 34-12-10 on 56% shooting for the series. If someone finds reason to criticize that, they would find reason to criticize him no matter what he did.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject:

IceInMyVeins wrote:
activeverb wrote:
IceInMyVeins wrote:
#SomeoneIsSalty



So youíve posted in this thread 5 times, and only 1 of your posts was about Durant. But you are upset that other people are not talking about him.




And he keeps derailing the thread...



You're missing the point, dude. I don't care where the conversation in this thread goes. Just because it started off being about Durant, it doesn't matter to me whether it stays on him. You were the one who complained about that, not me. I am fine with the thread going any direction people want to talk about.

Obviously, you don't really care about it staying on Durant either, so why you pretend you do?

Anyway, this is moving from basketball to complete silliness between and me, which I hope you find as boring as I and I'm sure anyone else who is unfortunate enough to stumble onto this my-d*ck-is-bigger-than-your-d*ck stupidity you and I are wasting our time on does.

Anyway I know you won't be able to resist responding, so go ahead and I'll let you have last word in this stupidity. I'll only respond to basketball stuff from here on. Have fun.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:07 am    Post subject:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject:

He's creeping into the top 15, for now I have these guys in front of him, Wade, and Curry.

Kobe
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
LeBron
Hakeem
Oscar
West
Dr. J
Malone

Back on topic? Or is someone still super salty?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
AshesToAshes wrote:
I would take no stats over blind usage of them.. if your stats were so good your words would not be necessary anyways. (full respect to that poster here)

activeverb wrote:
marga86 wrote:
people say how well lebron played, but i felt he stacked his stats in the first half. s.

Perceptions are interesting. His actual stats were:
21/5/5 in the first half.
20/8/3 In the second half.


That doesn't prove much. What stats would prove his intent was to pad his stats so post-game he could claim "nothing else i can do"? Lebron's own attitude proves what his goal was and i'll agree he wasn't padding. But he was motivated to have an impressive individual game so that no fingers could point at him while he throws everyone under the bus again. .



I don't pretend I can read minds. I don't pretend to be able to discern player's "intent."

The fact is Lebron's stats were pretty identical in the first and second half.

And I really can't see any criticism in a player wanting to have an impressive individual game.; I think any player hopes to do that every game. The guy averaged 34-12-10 on 56% shooting for the series. If someone finds reason to criticize that, they would find reason to criticize him no matter what he did.


That fact has no bearing on anything; so can drop the innocent stuff as i said. Are you saying everyone else is pretending they have supernatural powers? Maybe they just use different information to form an opinion, and no one can say that information is better/worse than numbers.

i'm criticizing his post-loss attitude not his performance. But i guess you'd never say a word if he regressed to AI results from this day forward.

When lebron saw the writing on the wall he would suddenly reply with "i don't make personnel decisions". When he lost he made sure no one could blame him personally and even spent his entire interview saying it.

From all his pouting comments, they better move half the team; cuz they won't take a bullet for bron now. "so kyrie, what are you going todo this offseason knowing that lebron just did everything he could and has nothing to improve on?"

also how about you have a back-on-topic comment for every post?

back on topic - Durant sonning lebron like that repeatedly in a finals series earns him bonus points and should be added to the OP list of accomplishments.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject:

AshesToAshes wrote:
activeverb wrote:
AshesToAshes wrote:
I would take no stats over blind usage of them.. if your stats were so good your words would not be necessary anyways. (full respect to that poster here)

activeverb wrote:
marga86 wrote:
people say how well lebron played, but i felt he stacked his stats in the first half. s.

Perceptions are interesting. His actual stats were:
21/5/5 in the first half.
20/8/3 In the second half.


That doesn't prove much. What stats would prove his intent was to pad his stats so post-game he could claim "nothing else i can do"? Lebron's own attitude proves what his goal was and i'll agree he wasn't padding. But he was motivated to have an impressive individual game so that no fingers could point at him while he throws everyone under the bus again. .



I don't pretend I can read minds. I don't pretend to be able to discern player's "intent."

The fact is Lebron's stats were pretty identical in the first and second half.

And I really can't see any criticism in a player wanting to have an impressive individual game.; I think any player hopes to do that every game. The guy averaged 34-12-10 on 56% shooting for the series. If someone finds reason to criticize that, they would find reason to criticize him no matter what he did.


That fact has no bearing on anything; so can drop the innocent stuff as i said. Are you saying everyone else is pretending they have supernatural powers? Maybe they just use different information to form an opinion, and no one can say that information is better/worse than numbers.

i'm criticizing his post-loss attitude not his performance. But i guess you'd never say a word if he regressed to AI results from this day forward.

When lebron saw the writing on the wall he would suddenly reply with "i don't make personnel decisions". When he lost he made sure no one could blame him personally and even spent his entire interview saying it.

From all his pouting comments, they better move half the team; cuz they won't take a bullet for bron now. "so kyrie, what are you going todo this offseason knowing that lebron just did everything he could and has nothing to improve on?"

also how about you have a back-on-topic comment for every post?

back on topic - Durant sonning lebron like that repeatedly in a finals series earns him bonus points and should be added to the OP list of accomplishments.



Lebron has always been a pouting crybaby.

Personally, I think Lebron is screwed. I donít see anyone beating the Warriors unless they get hurt or complacet. The Cavs are great, but they are nowhere near as great as the Warriors, and thereís no easy to fix that because their problems are on the defensive end.

All that said, I separate the pouting post-game Lebron to the on-court Lebron. The post-game guy is a bore who doesnít interest me; the on-court guy is amazing. But I feel that way about most players; I don't really care about their antics off the court.

I don't know what you mean by Durant sonning Lebron. I think they both had an amazing series, and neither has anything to feel bad about in terms of how they performed.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject:

Lebron is that kid whom just got his new PS4 last weekend and has been waiting all week to call his buddy Durant to come hangout and play vids...

Durant: hello

LBJ: Hey whatcha up to now? *superexcitedbutslowrollingit

Durant: Oh, Lebron, What's up! Uhmm, i just have steph, klay and draymond over right now cuz i got the new Switch that was released yesterday. What about you?

LBJ: Oh that thing, everyone says it's going to suck; should have waited for Xbox1X. *smashesnewPS4
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject:

AshesToAshes wrote:
Lebron is that kid whom just got his new PS4 last weekend and has been waiting all week to call his buddy Durant to come hangout and play vids...

Durant: hello

LBJ: Hey whatcha up to now? *superexcitedbutslowrollingit

Durant: Oh, Lebron, What's up! Uhmm, i just have steph, klay and draymond over right now cuz i got the new Switch that was released yesterday. What about you?

LBJ: Oh that thing, everyone says it's going to suck; should have waited for Xbox1X. *smashesnewPS4




As an Xbox guy...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
3. In the long run, all that matters is the outcome on the court. If someone wins a ring, some people will always complain that it shouldn't count as much or at all for some reason. Over time, those arguments tend to bring about shrugs and glazed eyeballs, especially from people who have no emotional investment in the players involved.


If it were all about rings and court outcomes, Bill Russell would be the GOAT. Followed by the stiffs that won 8+ titles him. Next would be
Robert Horry.

But obviously it's not. Which is why everyone debates the relative contributions of the player, the competition, and a billion other debatable factors.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
composite wrote:
activeverb wrote:
It's no coincidence that virtually everyone on the GOAT short list was surrounded by strong teammates and coaches for most of their careers. You don't get on the GOAT short list without winning, and you don't win without good teammates.


Great teammates and coaches inflate how great a player is though. History is filled with awesome players who'll never sniff a top 50 list because their teams sucked: George Gervin, Pistol Pete, Sidney Moncrief and Dominique Wilkins to name a few.

OTOH, guys like Hakeem Olajuwon are elevated higher than they should because MJ took 2 years off in the 90s.

Hakeem is really unique, love watching him. Not just the Bulls, but a solid 10 years earlier, his team knocked off the super Lakers. I'll never forget Coop's collapse.


Don't get me wrong, I think Hakeem is a fantastic player. But was he better than David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley or Karl Malone just because he won a ring while the others didn't?

Or was Kareem better than Hakeem because he won more rings? If Hakeem and Kareem swapped teams in the mid 80s, would Houston have more rings than the Lakers? Probably not.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:42 am    Post subject:

composite wrote:
activeverb wrote:
3. In the long run, all that matters is the outcome on the court. If someone wins a ring, some people will always complain that it shouldn't count as much or at all for some reason. Over time, those arguments tend to bring about shrugs and glazed eyeballs, especially from people who have no emotional investment in the players involved.


If it were all about rings and court outcomes, Bill Russell would be the GOAT. Followed by the stiffs that won 8+ titles him. Next would be
Robert Horry.

But obviously it's not. Which is why everyone debates the relative contributions of the player, the competition, and a billion other debatable factors.



Russell and Horry are unique cases.

Horry won a lot of rings, but he was a supporting player on those teams. There is a huge difference between the #1 guy on a team who wins a ring and the #5 guy on the team. You have to attain a high enough personal status before ring count matters. We all know that Horry isnít MJ and Steve Kerr isnít magic.

Russell confuses people. He won a lot of rings a long time ago when the league was very different. People are skeptical of his rings because they were in the early days of the league, and his personal stats donít look that impressive.

What Iím talking about is different. I donít find fans differentiate between rings unless they have a vested interested in bashing or praising a guy. People who donít like Duncan put an asterisks on his strike-shortened ring; to everyone else itís just a ring.

And criticism fades with more rings. Lots of people bashed Lebron when he won his first ring in Miami. That changed significantly when he won a second. By the time he won his third in Cleveland, the criticism seem limited to people who disliked him and would have criticized him no matter what happened.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject:

composite wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
composite wrote:
activeverb wrote:
It's no coincidence that virtually everyone on the GOAT short list was surrounded by strong teammates and coaches for most of their careers. You don't get on the GOAT short list without winning, and you don't win without good teammates.


Great teammates and coaches inflate how great a player is though. History is filled with awesome players who'll never sniff a top 50 list because their teams sucked: George Gervin, Pistol Pete, Sidney Moncrief and Dominique Wilkins to name a few.

OTOH, guys like Hakeem Olajuwon are elevated higher than they should because MJ took 2 years off in the 90s.

Hakeem is really unique, love watching him. Not just the Bulls, but a solid 10 years earlier, his team knocked off the super Lakers. I'll never forget Coop's collapse.


Don't get me wrong, I think Hakeem is a fantastic player. But was he better than David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley or Karl Malone just because he won a ring while the others didn't?

Or was Kareem better than Hakeem because he won more rings? If Hakeem and Kareem swapped teams in the mid 80s, would Houston have more rings than the Lakers? Probably not.


If Barkley or Malone had won two rings and two finals MVPs instead of Hakeem, theyíd be mentioned on the GOAT short list (near the end of the list) rather than Hakeem. So, yeah, those two rings radically affect how Hakeem is perceived.

Kareem is an entirely different animal. He has a ton of MVP awards and statistical achievements that put him in a different class than Hakeem.
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nevitt_smrek
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject:

He's a top 50 player. 'Nique was a bad omission from the last all-time team. KD has certainly surpassed him. Although 'Nique never would have joined Jordan and the Bulls

Luck plays such a big part in life. That knee injury back in March could have been worse, altering history.
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