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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Just trying to understand. What is the big rush to do a legacy check on LBJ right now when he's still playing and now a Laker? Are we trying to diminish him b/f he even suits up for the Lakers?

If so, what's the purpose of that?

Can't we enjoy the fact that we just got the #1 player in the NBA who just happened to put up 34/9/9 in 22 playoff games last year?


You know that this topic will keep coming up regularly over the next three to four seasons. The question is whether you're going to let yourself get sucked into it. I'll play along when I feel like it. Right now is not one of those times.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:35 pm    Post subject:

pkflyers wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
pkflyers wrote:
Lonzo-Lite wrote:
pkflyers wrote:
activeverb wrote:
pkflyers wrote:
governator wrote:
Batguano wrote:
Judah wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
God help me for asking this, but for the crowd that uses the fact that LeBron is 3-6 in the Finals as an argumentative point...would it be better if he was 3-0 and lost early in the playoffs those other 6 years instead?

It's such a weird point to make.

It's so ironic, the last folks you'd expect to use that as an argument are people who are fans of the Lakers. No player has a worse Finals record than Jerry West, but Laker fans don't seem to hold that against him.


So if Jerry West was 8-1 in the Finals instead of 1-8 you don't think it would affect his all-time ranking and fans perception of him at all?

If West was 8-1 in the Finals people would definitely be putting him over Kobe as the 2nd greatest SG of all-time and would be viewed as the Bill Russell of perimeter players (a guy who would be on everyone's short list for GOAT because of the overwhelming amount of championship success that couldn't be ignored). And he would rank higher on the all-time Lakers list as well. It definitely matters...


I think the question wasn’t if Jerry West was 8-1 instead of 1-8, the question was would it have looked better if Jerry West was 1-0 and not make finals the other 8 times?


1-0 would look better to me instead of 1-8


Again, this makes no sense to me. In the above scenario, West would only be "1-0" because you were pretending the 8 years he didn't get to the finals don't exist.

The reality is any year any player doesn't win a ring he lost; the only question is at what point he lost -- in the finals, in the conference finals, in the second round, in the first round, or in the regular season.

This is like Alice in Wonderland. It makes no sense.


Sure it doesnt "make sense", but thats the reality of the situation, and a reason why West isnt ranked as high as he should be

When he made it to the final stage, he lost more than he won, plain and simple


And it's a pretty inane reason.

Losing 8x in the 1st round of the playoffs is better than 8x in the Finals? Okay.


My point is, if your good enough to make it to the finals and consistently lose, thats not an accomplishment


Of course it is. Being the consistent 2nd best at anything in the world is pretty damn good. Thinking more highly of a guy who fails to make the finals than one who loses there isn't much of an accomplishment. If you're only going to count wins, at least be consistent.


When did I say that?

I get what your saying but I doubt Jerry is touting his 1-8 record


You said you'd be more impressed with 1-0 than 1-8, meaning you'd find it more of an accomplishment for him to lose at least one round earlier those 8 years. I know that sounds ridiculous. Because it is.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:40 pm    Post subject:

For arguement sake, had the Cavs had Irving and Love during the finals when they lost, his finals record could have been different.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject:

I've said for years that using finals losses as some huge slight against a player never made sense. The quicker people stop being brainwashed the better.

Just because the media pushes it doesn't mean you have to buy into it. I remember when Spurs fans and some media would use Kobe's two finals losses as a reason to put Duncan over him when Tim was 4-0 in the finals vs Kobe's 5-2. Funny how that narrative quieted down when Duncan lost to the Heat in 7 games in the NBA finals. As if it would have been a bigger accomplishment for Duncan to have missed the playoffs that year instead of getting to game 7 of the NBA finals. IT MAKES NO SENSE!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject:

eureca wrote:
I've said for years that using finals losses as some huge slight against a player never made sense. The quicker people stop being brainwashed the better.

Just because the media pushes it doesn't mean you have to buy into it. I remember when Spurs fans and some media would use Kobe's two finals losses as a reason to put Duncan over him when Tim was 4-0 in the finals vs Kobe's 5-2. Funny how that narrative quieted down when Duncan lost to the Heat in 7 games in the NBA finals. As if it would have been a bigger accomplishment for Duncan to have missed the playoffs that year instead of getting to game 7 of the NBA finals. IT MAKES NO SENSE!



I get the impression that "finals record" mostly matter to people who believe it helps/hurts a particular player they already like/dislike, but they prefer not to think about it deeply because they don't want to lessen a data point they believe supports their position.

I can't say I ever hear anyone state that they think "finals record" is important or significant outside of attacking/supporting some player they already have strong feelings about.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
eureca wrote:
I've said for years that using finals losses as some huge slight against a player never made sense. The quicker people stop being brainwashed the better.

Just because the media pushes it doesn't mean you have to buy into it. I remember when Spurs fans and some media would use Kobe's two finals losses as a reason to put Duncan over him when Tim was 4-0 in the finals vs Kobe's 5-2. Funny how that narrative quieted down when Duncan lost to the Heat in 7 games in the NBA finals. As if it would have been a bigger accomplishment for Duncan to have missed the playoffs that year instead of getting to game 7 of the NBA finals. IT MAKES NO SENSE!



I get the impression that "finals record" mostly matter to people who believe it helps/hurts a particular player they already like/dislike, but they prefer not to think about it deeply because they don't want to lessen a data point they believe supports their position.

I can't say I ever hear anyone state that they think "finals record" is important or significant outside of attacking/supporting some player they already have strong feelings about.


You must've not paid attention during the entire 2000's post-Jordan era...

Rings and/or championship record has literally ALWAYS been considered one of the main defining factors in ranking sports GOATS. Not just in basketball but in ALL of Sports. Why do you think Cristiano Ronaldo was getting so much overwhelming GOAT talk over Messi during the World Cup? Because Ronaldo has been able to lead his teams to championships in international competition and Messi has not. Even a lot of his own countrymen don't consider him better than Diego Maradona for that very reason.

If Tom Brady was 3-5 in the Superbowl instead of 5-3, would he be getting as much "unanimous GOAT/better than Montana" talk as he is now? Nope. If Peyton Manning was 4-0 in the Superbowl instead of 2-2, would he be getting even more GOAT talk than he is now? Of course he would. And this is in a sport where the QB sits half the game when the defense is out there.

The goalposts started being moved in the NBA the moment LeBron started racking up Finals losses like nobody expected.

The funny thing about this is that if LeBron was 6-3 in the Finals or 7-2 instead of 3-6, then EVERYONE would be proclaiming him the unanimous GOAT. Funny how rings don't matter until they do all of a sudden...?


Last edited by Batguano on Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
eureca wrote:
I've said for years that using finals losses as some huge slight against a player never made sense. The quicker people stop being brainwashed the better.

Just because the media pushes it doesn't mean you have to buy into it. I remember when Spurs fans and some media would use Kobe's two finals losses as a reason to put Duncan over him when Tim was 4-0 in the finals vs Kobe's 5-2. Funny how that narrative quieted down when Duncan lost to the Heat in 7 games in the NBA finals. As if it would have been a bigger accomplishment for Duncan to have missed the playoffs that year instead of getting to game 7 of the NBA finals. IT MAKES NO SENSE!



I get the impression that "finals record" mostly matter to people who believe it helps/hurts a particular player they already like/dislike, but they prefer not to think about it deeply because they don't want to lessen a data point they believe supports their position.

I can't say I ever hear anyone state that they think "finals record" is important or significant outside of attacking/supporting some player they already have strong feelings about.

Of course. And if it doesn't fit for the player they already like, its treated as if it doesn't matter. I couldn't stop laughing yesterday as I read that horrendous article when the guy says ”Laker fans aren't easily fooled by statistics” or something along those lines. Really? Is it because LeBron’s career averages in points, rebounds, and assists are all higher than Kobe's? Of course it is. If it was the reverse he would've undoubtedly devoted a large chunk of that article to Kobe's superior stats. But because LeBron’s are superior, suddenly stats aren't all that important.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
activeverb wrote:
eureca wrote:
I've said for years that using finals losses as some huge slight against a player never made sense. The quicker people stop being brainwashed the better.

Just because the media pushes it doesn't mean you have to buy into it. I remember when Spurs fans and some media would use Kobe's two finals losses as a reason to put Duncan over him when Tim was 4-0 in the finals vs Kobe's 5-2. Funny how that narrative quieted down when Duncan lost to the Heat in 7 games in the NBA finals. As if it would have been a bigger accomplishment for Duncan to have missed the playoffs that year instead of getting to game 7 of the NBA finals. IT MAKES NO SENSE!



I get the impression that "finals record" mostly matter to people who believe it helps/hurts a particular player they already like/dislike, but they prefer not to think about it deeply because they don't want to lessen a data point they believe supports their position.

I can't say I ever hear anyone state that they think "finals record" is important or significant outside of attacking/supporting some player they already have strong feelings about.

Of course. And if it doesn't fit for the player they already like, its treated as if it doesn't matter. I couldn't stop laughing yesterday as I read that horrendous article when the guy says ”Laker fans aren't easily fooled by statistics” or something along those lines. Really? Is it because LeBron’s career averages in points, rebounds, and assists are all higher than Kobe's? Of course it is. If it was the reverse he would've undoubtedly devoted a large chunk of that article to Kobe's superior stats. But because LeBron’s are superior, suddenly stats aren't all that important.


Oh sweet irony...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject:

Batguano wrote:
activeverb wrote:
eureca wrote:
I've said for years that using finals losses as some huge slight against a player never made sense. The quicker people stop being brainwashed the better.

Just because the media pushes it doesn't mean you have to buy into it. I remember when Spurs fans and some media would use Kobe's two finals losses as a reason to put Duncan over him when Tim was 4-0 in the finals vs Kobe's 5-2. Funny how that narrative quieted down when Duncan lost to the Heat in 7 games in the NBA finals. As if it would have been a bigger accomplishment for Duncan to have missed the playoffs that year instead of getting to game 7 of the NBA finals. IT MAKES NO SENSE!



I get the impression that "finals record" mostly matter to people who believe it helps/hurts a particular player they already like/dislike, but they prefer not to think about it deeply because they don't want to lessen a data point they believe supports their position.

I can't say I ever hear anyone state that they think "finals record" is important or significant outside of attacking/supporting some player they already have strong feelings about.


You must've not paid attention during the entire 2000's post-Jordan era...

Rings and/or championship record has literally ALWAYS been considered one of the main defining factors in ranking sports GOATS. Not just in basketball but in ALL of Sports. Why do you think Cristiano Ronaldo was getting so much overwhelming GOAT talk over Messi during the World Cup? Because Ronaldo has been able to lead his teams to championships in international competition and Messi has not. Even a lot of his own countrymen don't consider him better than Diego Maradona for that very reason.

If Tom Brady was 3-5 in the Superbowl instead of 5-3, would he be getting as much "unanimous GOAT/better than Montana" talk as he is now? Nope. If Peyton Manning was 4-0 in the Superbowl instead of 2-2, would he be getting even more GOAT talk than he is now? Of course he would. And this is in a sport where the QB sits half the game when the defense is out there.

The goalposts started being moved in the NBA the moment LeBron started racking up Finals losses like nobody expected.

The funny thing about this is that if LeBron was 6-3 in the Finals or 7-2 instead of 3-6, then EVERYONE would be proclaiming him the unanimous GOAT. Funny how rings don't matter until they do all of a sudden...?


You are talking about two different things. Nobody said rings don't matter. People just need to come to their senses and stop acting like it's more impressive to miss the playoffs or to lose in the 1st round than to lose in the NBA finals.

Of course 6-3 is better than 3-6 in the NBA finals nobody said otherwise. The point is if someone was 3-0, 3-1, 3-2, 3-3, 3-4, or 3-5 in the NBA finals that is not more impressive than 3-6.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:27 pm    Post subject:

At the end of the day Rings won is all that matters. So if you want to say the East was weak and he shouldn’t be lauded for 9 straight Finals appearances, fine. But don’t use a losing Finals record to say he’s not great in general , thats ridiculous

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject:

Interesting debate. But I’ll tell you why MJs finals record outshines his initial playoff drought:

Perception in the natural passing of the torch story; it was Larry’s and Magic league. Then MJ came in and dominated once he earned his trip to the finals. And once he got there he never lost. That’s why he’s th goat in so many minds. Deservedly so. Context my brothas.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:45 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
The losing team of the Finals is not a good way to measure the talent of the league during that time.


Just trying to understand. What is the big rush to do a legacy check on LBJ right now when he's still playing and now a Laker? Are we trying to diminish him b/f he even suits up for the Lakers?

If so, what's the purpose of that?

Can't we enjoy the fact that we just got the #1 player in the NBA who just happened to put up 34/9/9 in 22 playoff games last year?


Agreed.

Can’t wait to watch this team gel during the season, then see what Lebron, the young core and the vets do in the playoffs this year.

WCF here we come!!!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject:

babyskyhook wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
The losing team of the Finals is not a good way to measure the talent of the league during that time.


Just trying to understand. What is the big rush to do a legacy check on LBJ right now when he's still playing and now a Laker? Are we trying to diminish him b/f he even suits up for the Lakers?

If so, what's the purpose of that?

Can't we enjoy the fact that we just got the #1 player in the NBA who just happened to put up 34/9/9 in 22 playoff games last year?


Agreed.

Can’t wait to watch this team gel during the season, then see what Lebron, the young core and the vets do in the playoffs this year.

WCF here we come!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:13 pm    Post subject:

Some of you deserve the D'Angelo Russell version of the Lakers. Not the one that's going to be on the court this up coming season with LeBron. It's the same mindset of folks who think if the Lakers can't win big in the playoffs would rather tank to get a top pick than see progression of any kind.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:37 pm    Post subject:

Forget finals records, I still can't fathom the fact that a team accomplishment (that's incredibly difficult to pull off) is the end-all be-all when it comes to making individual comparisons between GOAT level players. It's all the media's fault for mystifying MJ's 6-0 record.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:50 pm    Post subject:

One step at a time. Learn to crawl before your can walk.

Will take a good seed in the playoffs right now.
And a good showing in the playoff games.
This is a GIANT step from last year.
Has any team gone from close to last to first in a year?

The Lakers can do it. But the team has to jell first.

There will be sellouts.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject:

lol.. Lebron's a Laker.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject:

So that's what the Lebron thread has turned to? Regardless of how I felt previously the man showed balls being he first star to sign on the dotted line with the Lakers. Respect the man and support him because his success is OUR success unless you're just here for Kobe.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:22 pm    Post subject:

Lebron is neither the best player of all time, nor the greatest to be a Laker. How quickly some of you forget Kobe’s greatness. He was light years ahead of lebron in all aspects of the games. The best two way player since Jordan with insane foot work, midrange and post up game the likes the sport has never seen from a perimeter player. I won’t even get started with Kareem and Shaq, Magic, Wilt and West. Pump the breaks on the lebron legacy talk. Let’s enjoy him as a Laker.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:23 pm    Post subject:

I feel embarrassed for the fans that don't want Lebron here. Seriously, you make normal Kobe fans look bad
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:24 pm    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
Forget finals records, I still can't fathom the fact that a team accomplishment (that's incredibly difficult to pull off) is the end-all be-all when it comes to making individual comparisons between GOAT level players. It's all the media's fault for mystifying MJ's 6-0 record.


6-0 in 12 years. That’s a ring 50% of his career. If that’s not impressive I don’t know what is.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject:

My Lebron Lakers Jersey came in the mail today. It's officially lit.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
pkflyers wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
pkflyers wrote:
Lonzo-Lite wrote:
pkflyers wrote:
activeverb wrote:
pkflyers wrote:
governator wrote:
Batguano wrote:
Judah wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
God help me for asking this, but for the crowd that uses the fact that LeBron is 3-6 in the Finals as an argumentative point...would it be better if he was 3-0 and lost early in the playoffs those other 6 years instead?

It's such a weird point to make.

It's so ironic, the last folks you'd expect to use that as an argument are people who are fans of the Lakers. No player has a worse Finals record than Jerry West, but Laker fans don't seem to hold that against him.


So if Jerry West was 8-1 in the Finals instead of 1-8 you don't think it would affect his all-time ranking and fans perception of him at all?

If West was 8-1 in the Finals people would definitely be putting him over Kobe as the 2nd greatest SG of all-time and would be viewed as the Bill Russell of perimeter players (a guy who would be on everyone's short list for GOAT because of the overwhelming amount of championship success that couldn't be ignored). And he would rank higher on the all-time Lakers list as well. It definitely matters...


I think the question wasn’t if Jerry West was 8-1 instead of 1-8, the question was would it have looked better if Jerry West was 1-0 and not make finals the other 8 times?


1-0 would look better to me instead of 1-8


Again, this makes no sense to me. In the above scenario, West would only be "1-0" because you were pretending the 8 years he didn't get to the finals don't exist.

The reality is any year any player doesn't win a ring he lost; the only question is at what point he lost -- in the finals, in the conference finals, in the second round, in the first round, or in the regular season.

This is like Alice in Wonderland. It makes no sense.


Sure it doesnt "make sense", but thats the reality of the situation, and a reason why West isnt ranked as high as he should be

When he made it to the final stage, he lost more than he won, plain and simple


And it's a pretty inane reason.

Losing 8x in the 1st round of the playoffs is better than 8x in the Finals? Okay.


My point is, if your good enough to make it to the finals and consistently lose, thats not an accomplishment


Of course it is. Being the consistent 2nd best at anything in the world is pretty damn good. Thinking more highly of a guy who fails to make the finals than one who loses there isn't much of an accomplishment. If you're only going to count wins, at least be consistent.


When did I say that?

I get what your saying but I doubt Jerry is touting his 1-8 record


You said you'd be more impressed with 1-0 than 1-8, meaning you'd find it more of an accomplishment for him to lose at least one round earlier those 8 years. I know that sounds ridiculous. Because it is.


"1-0 would look better to me instead of 1-8"

Where in that statement did I say losing in an earlier round is more of an accomplishment?

You are coming up with your own interpretations of what I said
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
lol.. Lebron's a Laker.


It hasn't sunk in yet
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject:

eureca wrote:
Batguano wrote:
activeverb wrote:
eureca wrote:
I've said for years that using finals losses as some huge slight against a player never made sense. The quicker people stop being brainwashed the better.

Just because the media pushes it doesn't mean you have to buy into it. I remember when Spurs fans and some media would use Kobe's two finals losses as a reason to put Duncan over him when Tim was 4-0 in the finals vs Kobe's 5-2. Funny how that narrative quieted down when Duncan lost to the Heat in 7 games in the NBA finals. As if it would have been a bigger accomplishment for Duncan to have missed the playoffs that year instead of getting to game 7 of the NBA finals. IT MAKES NO SENSE!



I get the impression that "finals record" mostly matter to people who believe it helps/hurts a particular player they already like/dislike, but they prefer not to think about it deeply because they don't want to lessen a data point they believe supports their position.

I can't say I ever hear anyone state that they think "finals record" is important or significant outside of attacking/supporting some player they already have strong feelings about.


You must've not paid attention during the entire 2000's post-Jordan era...

Rings and/or championship record has literally ALWAYS been considered one of the main defining factors in ranking sports GOATS. Not just in basketball but in ALL of Sports. Why do you think Cristiano Ronaldo was getting so much overwhelming GOAT talk over Messi during the World Cup? Because Ronaldo has been able to lead his teams to championships in international competition and Messi has not. Even a lot of his own countrymen don't consider him better than Diego Maradona for that very reason.

If Tom Brady was 3-5 in the Superbowl instead of 5-3, would he be getting as much "unanimous GOAT/better than Montana" talk as he is now? Nope. If Peyton Manning was 4-0 in the Superbowl instead of 2-2, would he be getting even more GOAT talk than he is now? Of course he would. And this is in a sport where the QB sits half the game when the defense is out there.

The goalposts started being moved in the NBA the moment LeBron started racking up Finals losses like nobody expected.

The funny thing about this is that if LeBron was 6-3 in the Finals or 7-2 instead of 3-6, then EVERYONE would be proclaiming him the unanimous GOAT. Funny how rings don't matter until they do all of a sudden...?


You are talking about two different things. Nobody said rings don't matter. People just need to come to their senses and stop acting like it's more impressive to miss the playoffs or to lose in the 1st round than to lose in the NBA finals.

Of course 6-3 is better than 3-6 in the NBA finals nobody said otherwise. The point is if someone was 3-0, 3-1, 3-2, 3-3, 3-4, or 3-5 in the NBA finals that is not more impressive than 3-6.

I'll chime in on this little topic, 3-0,3-1,...3-5 are all more impressive than 3-6, especially given the context of the GOAT discussion, the Eastern Conference since Jordan retired from the Bulls in 1998, and the Super Teams in Miami and Cleveland.
It does count a great deal because what we expect from the GOAT is getting it done on the when the pressure is at its greatest. I'd also say some persons have no remorse for LeBron losing to the Warriors due to him being the one who started this trend of players forming Super Teams. LeBron is a great player, but he isn't and will never be the GOAT.
To me Michael Jordan is the GOAT. #2 on that list is a tie of Kobe and Kareem. #4 is Magic #5 Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan
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