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governator
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:52 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
From hoopshype

Michael Jordan on LeBron: “If you ask 20 years from now, I’m pretty sure LeBron James may beat me”


Interesting, Is MJ acknowledging LeBron still playing play a part in the discussion?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:00 pm    Post subject:

I now have Lebron #1 all-time. He started out this season #4 on my list. He passed Kareem, MJ, and Wilt.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:11 pm    Post subject:

Cap
MJ
Bron
Kobe
Magic
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Steph
Dream

This is my top 12.

Honorable mention - Wade, KD?, West, Oscar, Mikan, Pippen, Big Game, Cousey, KG, Isiah

Championships matter...makes Barkley, Stockton, Malone, McGrady lower than they could have been.
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P.K.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:46 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Quote:
From hoopshype

Michael Jordan on LeBron: “If you ask 20 years from now, I’m pretty sure LeBron James may beat me”


Interesting, Is MJ acknowledging LeBron still playing play a part in the discussion?

Probably just an acknowledgement that 20 years from now, quite a few of the people having this discussion would have never seen MJ play. MJ retired from the Bulls for the 2nd time in 1998 (not really counting the 2 years with the Wiz - since he wasn't really the old MJ during that stint)
22 years since he last played means a whole generation that never saw that greatness. 20 more years from now pretty much means that only people over 52 are going to remember MJ's play (because, let's be honest - kids under 10 might watch basketball, but they're not really understanding it)

MJ's smart enough to understand that recency matters, at least in people's minds.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:57 pm    Post subject:

CervantesRises wrote:
Cap
MJ
Bron
Kobe
Magic
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Steph
Dream

This is my top 12.

Honorable mention - Wade, KD?, West, Oscar, Mikan, Pippen, Big Game, Cousey, KG, Isiah

Championships matter...makes Barkley, Stockton, Malone, McGrady lower than they could have been.

in May 2020, ESPN ranked their top 74
1. MJ
2. LBJ
3. KAJ
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. TD
9. Kobe
10. Shaq
11. Oscar
12. Hakeem
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105801/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-10-1

CBS Sports also did theirs in May 2020
MJ, LBJ, KAJ, Russell, Magic, Wilt,
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. TD
10. Kobe
11. Hakeem
12. Oscar
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/top-15-players-in-nba-history-cbs-sports-ranks-the-greatest-of-all-time-from-west-and-steph-to-lebron-and-mj/

Mine are
MJ, LBJ, KAJ/Magic (tie), Russell, Bird, Wilt, TD, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Oscar
I've seen all these guys play.
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Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI


Last edited by P.K. on Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:48 am    Post subject:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:09 am    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
CervantesRises wrote:
Cap
MJ
Bron
Kobe
Magic
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Steph
Dream

This is my top 12.

Honorable mention - Wade, KD?, West, Oscar, Mikan, Pippen, Big Game, Cousey, KG, Isiah

Championships matter...makes Barkley, Stockton, Malone, McGrady lower than they could have been.

in May, ESPN ranked their top 74
1. MJ
2. LBJ
3. KAJ
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. TD
9. Kobe
10. Shaq
11. Oscar
12. Hakeem

CBS Sports also did theirs in May
MJ, LBJ, KAJ, Russell, Magic, Wilt,
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. TD
10. Kobe
11. Hakeem
12. Oscar

Mine are
MJ, LBJ, KAJ/Magic (tie), Russell, Bird, Wilt, TD, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Oscar
I've seen all these guys play.


Why is Kobe so underrated I don't get it... Does know one remember watching this guy destroy the entire league? He was like Tyson in his prime. Beating people by skill and a presence/will that made others lose before they even stepped on the court or in the ring

The league was afraid of him
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:27 am    Post subject:

I think each dude had his era

Magic - greatest of the 80s (5 rings between 80-89).
Jordan - greatest of the 90s (6 rings between 90-98).
Kobe - greatest of the 00s (5 rings between 00-10)
Bron - greatest of the 10s (4 rings between 12-20)

You just can not have an all time GOAT discussion and not mention the above 4 names, IMO. They literally dominated their eras in their primes. As much as I value a bigman, I can not understand how one can do an all time list in the modern era and not have Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Lebron all in the top 5. Thave all have to be there. Now between them you could argue all day, I do not enjoy those. But they've got to be in the top 5.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:09 am    Post subject:

I'm totally not into ranking the all-time greats, especially those of another era.

I always thought with Kobe, he wasn't so much driven to be the all-time best , but to play and work hard enough, earn enough cache to be considered among the all-time greats. I think LeBron thinks this way too, you give it your all, you get your MVP's, hopefully your rings, when you end your playing career, you are at or near the top of the leaderboard in all time points, assists, and rebounds. You go into the Hall of fame, get your number retired and your jersey on the wall - probably in three cities when it is all said and done.

The idea is to create the legacy, leave your mark on the game, and then walk away and enjoy the rest of your life.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:53 am    Post subject:

I find it fun to discuss and debate GOAT rankings as long as the people you are talking to aren't so (bleep) arrogant, they think their opinion is the only correct one lol.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:17 am    Post subject:

Is it too late to teach LeBron how to play baseball?

The Dodgers could use a guy like him.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:21 am    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:
Is it too late to teach LeBron how to play baseball?

The Dodgers could use a guy like him.


Wouldn’t matter if he did well. Dave Roberts would pull him for Baez or Jansen when it mattered.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:34 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
I think each dude had his era

Magic - greatest of the 80s (5 rings between 80-89).
Jordan - greatest of the 90s (6 rings between 90-98).
Kobe - greatest of the 00s (5 rings between 00-10)
Bron - greatest of the 10s (4 rings between 12-20)

You just can not have an all time GOAT discussion and not mention the above 4 names, IMO. They literally dominated their eras in their primes. As much as I value a bigman, I can not understand how one can do an all time list in the modern era and not have Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Lebron all in the top 5. Thave all have to be there. Now between them you could argue all day, I do not enjoy those. But they've got to be in the top 5.


I think because to a lot of people there’s Tim Duncan and Shaq effect. Even tho Kobe was putting up big numbers, To a lot of people he didn’t really dominate as a leader until around 2007-2010. Compare to those other guys who were dominating and going deep in the playoffs and finals most of the decade.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:41 am    Post subject:

32 wrote:
I now have Lebron #1 all-time. He started out this season #4 on my list. He passed Kareem, MJ, and Wilt.



Oooookkk, but for me no one at this point will/has passed Kareem. A 7'2 graceful, strong, intelligent marvelous package in a 7'2 frame.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:43 am    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
32 wrote:
I now have Lebron #1 all-time. He started out this season #4 on my list. He passed Kareem, MJ, and Wilt.


Oooookkk, but for me no one at this point will/has passed Kareem. A 7'2 graceful, strong, intelligent marvelous package in a 7'2 frame.


I respect your opinion and I would never argue with somebody having Kareem #1.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:57 am    Post subject:

Quote:
MJ's smart enough to understand that recency matters, at least in people's minds.


Kids are gonna remember LeBron with winning chips with 3 different teams, and coming back from a deficit 3-1 in the finals...

Jordan 20 years from now, though we have media like Youtube and NBA Classic, will start to become like Wilt in a way where he's more of a myth and some legend that old fogies talk about but won't be taken seriously.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:19 am    Post subject:

Daikatana wrote:
Quote:
MJ's smart enough to understand that recency matters, at least in people's minds.


Kids are gonna remember LeBron with winning chips with 3 different teams, and coming back from a deficit 3-1 in the finals...

Jordan 20 years from now, though we have media like Youtube and NBA Classic, will start to become like Wilt in a way where he's more of a myth and some legend that old fogies talk about but won't be taken seriously.

yep...pretty much.
and, 20 years from now, there will be some new guy in the mold of Jordan/LBJ/KD that'll be lighting up the league, and the convo's gonna be "is he better than Lebron" and MJ might not even be in the discussion because no one under 60 will have even seen Jordan play
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:10 pm    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:

in May 2020, ESPN ranked their top 74
1. MJ
2. LBJ
3. KAJ
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. TD
9. Kobe
10. Shaq
11. Oscar
12. Hakeem



That strikes me as close to a consensus top 12 as anything, though of course you can always reshuffle the usual suspects in a different order.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:13 pm    Post subject:

Daikatana wrote:


Jordan 20 years from now, though we have media like Youtube and NBA Classic, will start to become like Wilt in a way where he's more of a myth and some legend that old fogies talk about but won't be taken seriously. [/i]



I disagree with that. Wilt is mythical because very few of his achievements are on video (his 100 point game isn't.) And his stats, which are largely a product of his era, are difficult to digest and compare to other areas.

I don't see MJ becoming any more of a myth 20 years from now than Magic and Bird are today.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:52 pm    Post subject:

miggz23 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
I think each dude had his era

Magic - greatest of the 80s (5 rings between 80-89).
Jordan - greatest of the 90s (6 rings between 90-98).
Kobe - greatest of the 00s (5 rings between 00-10)
Bron - greatest of the 10s (4 rings between 12-20)

You just can not have an all time GOAT discussion and not mention the above 4 names, IMO. They literally dominated their eras in their primes. As much as I value a bigman, I can not understand how one can do an all time list in the modern era and not have Jordan, Magic, Kobe, Lebron all in the top 5. Thave all have to be there. Now between them you could argue all day, I do not enjoy those. But they've got to be in the top 5.


I think because to a lot of people there’s Tim Duncan and Shaq effect. Even tho Kobe was putting up big numbers, To a lot of people he didn’t really dominate as a leader until around 2007-2010. Compare to those other guys who were dominating and going deep in the playoffs and finals most of the decade.


Yeah, I think more people look at it like this:


50s -- Mikan
60s -- Wilt/Russell
70s -- Kareem
80s -- Bird/Magic
90s -- MJ
00s -- Kobe/Shaq/Duncan
10s -- Lebron


I don't think the era approach does anything to focus or improve the discussion. It's just that the consensus top 10 guys happen to break down fairly well on a decade by decade basis.

All this does, really, is micro-segment the argument about who the best guy in the 60s and 2000s was. (Most people tend to give Magic the nod in the 80s)
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:57 pm    Post subject:

waterman40 wrote:
I'm totally not into ranking the all-time greats, especially those of another era.

I always thought with Kobe, he wasn't so much driven to be the all-time best , but to play and work hard enough, earn enough cache to be considered among the all-time greats. I think LeBron thinks this way too, you give it your all, you get your MVP's, hopefully your rings, when you end your playing career, you are at or near the top of the leaderboard in all time points, assists, and rebounds. You go into the Hall of fame, get your number retired and your jersey on the wall - probably in three cities when it is all said and done.

The idea is to create the legacy, leave your mark on the game, and then walk away and enjoy the rest of your life.



All-time rankings are nothing more than a fun discussion for fans who enjoy them.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:02 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
P.K. wrote:

in May 2020, ESPN ranked their top 74
1. MJ
2. LBJ
3. KAJ
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. TD
9. Kobe
10. Shaq
11. Oscar
12. Hakeem


That strikes me as close to a consensus top 12 as anything, though of course you can always reshuffle the usual suspects in a different order.

What's interesting to me about it and the CBS list was that 8 or 10 years ago the list was:
1. MJ
2/3. Magic/KAJ
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7/8/9. TD/Kobe/Shaq (in various orders)
10. Lebron
11. Oscar
12. Hakeem

So, in these latest ESPN & CBS lists Lebron has (justifiably) moved way up...
But Magic has fallen from #2/#3 to #5, and Bird has fallen from #5 to #7 or 8th
Everyone got pushed down 1 spot by Lebron going to #2...Except both Magic and Bird have fallen more than just 1 spot
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:10 pm    Post subject:

Don’t see why Larry Bird is so high up on these lists.

IMHO, Kobe has already surpassed Bird, not just in rings, but also stats and accomplishments.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:19 pm    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
activeverb wrote:
P.K. wrote:

in May 2020, ESPN ranked their top 74
1. MJ
2. LBJ
3. KAJ
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. TD
9. Kobe
10. Shaq
11. Oscar
12. Hakeem


That strikes me as close to a consensus top 12 as anything, though of course you can always reshuffle the usual suspects in a different order.

What's interesting to me about it and the CBS list was that 8 or 10 years ago the list was:
1. MJ
2/3. Magic/KAJ
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7/8/9. TD/Kobe/Shaq (in various orders)
10. Lebron
11. Oscar
12. Hakeem

So, in these latest ESPN & CBS lists Lebron has (justifiably) moved way up...
But Magic has fallen from #2/#3 to #5, and Bird has fallen from #5 to #7 or 8th
Everyone got pushed down 1 spot by Lebron going to #2...Except both Magic and Bird have fallen more than just 1 spot



I don't think any of those lists are gospel, though. Other than MJ always being #1, there's always been a lot of diverging opinions about how the other guys are ranked depending on which publication or individual is doing the ranking.

Even the same publication doing a ranking in 2010 and 2020 isn't apples-to-apples, because there were likely different people at the publication in 2010 and 2020 so that can cause variations.

The main guy who seems to have suffered over time is Oscar. Probably because fewer people are around who saw him play and his one mythical achievement (the triple double season) isn't so mythical after Westbrook did it three times.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:01 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:


Yeah, I think more people look at it like this:


50s -- Mikan
60s -- Wilt/Russell
70s -- Kareem
80s -- Bird/Magic
90s -- MJ
00s -- Kobe/Shaq/Duncan
10s -- Lebron


I don't think the era approach does anything to focus or improve the discussion. It's just that the consensus top 10 guys happen to break down fairly well on a decade by decade basis.

All this does, really, is micro-segment the argument about who the best guy in the 60s and 2000s was. (Most people tend to give Magic the nod in the 80s)


I think the era distinction is important insofar as putting guys into a bin that reflects the competition, rules and idiosyncratic events of their era. That Wilt and Russell still figure so highly in these GOAT discussions is problematic for me insofar as so there are relatively few people who even remember seeing them play and they played in a vastly different league under vastly different rules.

If we put a young Bill Russell or Wilt into today's NBA as a rookie, I'm willing to concede they becomes an all-stars, but how big is the gap in talent between them and the other best bigs in the league? Like are they right up there with AD and Giannis? Even better? I mean just look at the 61-62 season where Wilt averaged 50 and 25. In terms of quality bigs there was Russell (6'9") and Bellamy (6'11") on 9 total teams. There were a couple other 7 footers, but they weren't talented. Even if one were to concede all the mythical Wilt athleticism stories, throw him in today's league with athletic bigs on every team, long, super athletic wings on every team, and the modern defensive schemes. He's probably a 25 and 12 kind of player instead of 50 and 25. Now throw him onto one of the dysfunctional franchises in today's league and he's like AD pre-Lakers, missing the playoffs or getting the boot early in the first round. He never would become the legend he still is today (ditto Russell).

So I think the era approach recognizes that certain guys were dominant within their time but that we can't realistically project that across all eras. On the flipside, I feel that some bigs who had lesser career arcs in the modern era, like KG, would probably have produced equivalent results had they been in Russell's shoes. One guy gets docked for playing in an era with more competition while another remains in the conversation for dominating a league with a handful of teams and almost now equivalent athletes.
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