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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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 Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| fubby1 wrote: | | Endless3D wrote: | I think I'll be more excited for the next NBA season then I have been in a long time regardless of what happens.
Lonzo and Ingram taking the leap is exciting but getting Bron/George and being hated is also fun as (bleep) idc |
Exactly my thoughts, Laker organization I believe is in a no lose situation.
Either way we have a lot to look fwd to . Whether it is with this promising young group or a team of superstars.
Either way I won’t be disappointed. Chips are coming sooner or later. I think Magic knows this and
Is not about to panic and make a bad decision. Really a great situation to be in. |
Yes, we are better with Lebron or hopefully better with our youngsters improving. Once the GS dynasty ends someone will fill the void.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| secund2nun wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | RG73 wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: |
Honest question, do you play basketball?
Ever been frustrated w/ a player that won’t give the ball up early? Just because you end up passing the ball doesn’t mean you played unselfishly for that whole possession.
Westbrook is a good example.
And re: LeBron iso ball, we have 15 yrs of data. What offensive system has LeBron ever bought into in his 15 yrs? |
When I'm playing with someone vastly better than me (which is most people), no, I don't care that they are using their gravity to draw defenders away and pounding the ball to use their court vision to set up the best opportunity. I just try to get to the best spot on the court and stay ready for a pass. That's what you're supposed to do.
I'm not sure what you mean by what offensive system has LeBron bought into? The one that got him 3 championships and 9 trips to the Finals? I mean I suppose there is some imaginary offensive system that if LeBron had only just bought into it he would have gone to 15 Finals and won them all, right?
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't LeBron ball post the 5th best offense in the league last season while playing the 12th fastest pace? And the season before that weren't they the 3rd best offense? And the season before that weren't they the 3rd best offense also? And the season before that weren't they also the 3rd best offense? And the season before that wasn't Miami the 5th best offense?
Facts are fun, aren't they? |
Cool, looks like we agree then.
LeBron likes to play LeBron ball. LeBron ball works for LeBron. LeBron ball is not actually an offensive system, it’s just one guy making all the plays.
LeBron ball doesn’t bring out the best in other players not named LeBron
AGREED!!!!! |
In Miami Lebron would move off ball and cut. He is very good at that. In Cleveland he had a handpicked idiot (Lue) as his HC. When his coach wasn't completely terrible and had some sort of system (Spo) it got the best out of him and he played in a more system oriented manner. The same thing would apply if he played under Luke Walton, probably to a larger degree because of Walton's system.
Also Lebron has never played with a great passer. If Lonzo is still on the team I would imagine Lebron would play some more off-ball. If Lonzo is traded then Lebron will obviously handle it more. PG and KL (if he comes) are not great passers. |
I would hope that Lebron would be on ball and that Lonzo would the secondary creator. Ball could thrive at that position.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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RG73
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Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | What star has Lebron elevated? Not Wade, not Bosh, not Love. Kyrie asked out because he didn’t want to play with Lebron. I know that the motto here is that proven things will change, but they don’t. |
Can someone post actual data for this? Or are we just going to go the route of that's what I think even if it flies in the face of the actual events that happened on the court?
Last I checked, Bosh, Love, and Kyrie have not been to finals without LeBron, so if we're using that metric (which isn't really that useful), their games were elevated. Unless losing is elevating your game. But lets just go with data, shall we?
And Kyrie wanted out because he wanted to be the man. He could have been playing with any other star and he would have wanted out, just like young Kobe wanted out of Shaq's shadow. |
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 17886
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| LBJ surely elevates scrubs. Only explanation for Thompson and JR Smith getting those contracts. |
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numero-ocho
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 18203
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Ugh, people will be sorely dissapointed if Lebron comes here. |
You'd think we'd be used to it by now. Is it the second or third time we thought Lebron was coming?
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"Suck it up. Don't be a baby. Do your job." - Kobe Bryant |
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Kobe Jocker
Star Player
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3754
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Cleveland in 2003 before LBJ
17 - 65
Cleveland in 2004 after LBJ
35 - 47
No adding KCP/Brook Lopez... pretty much just adding LBJ as a rookie
Cleveland in 2013 before LBJ
33 - 49
Cleveland in 2014 after LBJ
53 - 29
Adding Kevin Love.
Los Angeles in 2018 before LBJ
35 - 47
Los Angeles in 2019 after LBJ and adding PG?
?
The man added 17 wins to the worst team in basketball as a rookie. We love all our young players but none of them added 17 wins. Only players like Kareem or Magic have that type of impact. Combined with Love he added 20 wins to a bad team. We all know that although Love is a good player he didn't have that big an impact.
You can dislike LBJ's style of play... but he will help us win next year.
I believe this more than if we signed PG or even Kawhi. If you took LBJ off the Cavs... they drop below .500. You took Kawhi off the Spurs and they still won 47 games. |
No one is saying Lebron won't make the team better, the issue for me anyway, is his age and the roster makeup not fitting his style of play. Lebron has played one way since highschool, and that way thrives with shooters around him, which the Lakers don't have much of. The stars rumored to team up have essentially played the same position as Bron and been his rivals in the playoffs. The young guys on the Lakers don't really mix because Ingram becomes redundant, Randle is toast, and Lonzo is a pass-first PG who can't penetrate or hit a jumper. Luke's GS influenced style of coahcing is counter to how Lebron plays.
But hey, other than those things......it all looks good. 
Well...that roster isn't good enough to stop GS who have KD/Curry as 1a/1b, and then Klay as #3, with green at #4. Or even Houston. But I guess it's better to blow things up for a 2-3 year sideshow, instead of building for the next 2-3 years into a contending young team when the Warriors start to fade. Or is it? |
Ingram and Hart shot 39% from 3 with no PG or LBJ to create gravity for them to shoot. You don't think they get even more open looks or driving lanes with those two pulling defenses their way? Even Lonzo should find space with that type of gravity added to the team.
I agree they need more shooting but I believe with that gravity that Ingram shoots in the high fifties TS%... Lonzo moves to a competent level... and Hart and Kuzma also continue to improve. George is a 40% shooter from three. I assume from management's recent comments that #25 will be able to shoot.
With George this team already looks better than what Cleveland took to the finals. It's hard to project with rookies and two year players... but I feel confident we will be giving GSW fits next year if we get LBJ and PG. |
Ingram is gone if we get Lebron. They'll move him for another piece. And while some Lakers are competent at the 3-ball, it's a far cry in comparison to GS or Houston. We've seen how bad things go for Lebron led teams when those 3-pointers aren't falling, there's no other style they can shift to. At least Miami had Bosh, and Cleveland had Love who could hit the post from time to time.
And sorry, I don't see how this team matches up with GS by adding 3 SFs. I can't stress that point enough. Star power is nice, but it has to blend.
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"What makes you think a bartender is stupid or incapable of scouting?" ~ Rick12322 |
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Super Mega Team
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Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 3877
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Kobe Jocker wrote: | | OC Lakerfan wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | We would only have to gut the team if we wanted Kawhi. Otherwise we can have Lebron and our young guys. |
The Lakers will definitely gut this team if we get Lebron. The draw for him is LA and the ability to form another star trio...not to bring along young guys at age 34. Ingram doesn't fit with Lebron/PG and/or KL. Lonzo is a passing guard with no jumpshot, so he's not a fit for Lebron either.
And how this team fits together will be key. Just look to OKC for a bad fit roster. Lebon/PG/Kl have all spent most of their time at SF, I'm not sold that we would even be getting the diversity of roles with that trio needed. No Love or Bosh like MIA or CLE had. And no penetrating guards like Wade/Kyrie. Where's the floor balance at? The Warriors all fit their roles perfectly. When they added KD, his style fit what they were already doing. Lebron will want pieces that fit around his ball-dominant style...shooters. |
Do you want shooters with Lebron or penetrating guards? You state on thingin one sentence and then another. Wade is a great shooter... |
For Lebron I would want shooters in the Klay mold. But penetrating guards do ok with Lebron, largely because they can create their own shots. Lakers don't have either. |
It is widely believed that Lebron isn’t coming here alone...
pg13 can penetrate and shoot.
Hart can shoot and finishes well at the rim.
BI has played minutes at he guard spot and can penetrate.
There might be ring chasers like the likes of Belleneli. |
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Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Cleveland in 2003 before LBJ
17 - 65
Cleveland in 2004 after LBJ
35 - 47
No adding KCP/Brook Lopez... pretty much just adding LBJ as a rookie
Cleveland in 2013 before LBJ
33 - 49
Cleveland in 2014 after LBJ
53 - 29
Adding Kevin Love.
Los Angeles in 2018 before LBJ
35 - 47
Los Angeles in 2019 after LBJ and adding PG?
?
The man added 17 wins to the worst team in basketball as a rookie. We love all our young players but none of them added 17 wins. Only players like Kareem or Magic have that type of impact. Combined with Love he added 20 wins to a bad team. We all know that although Love is a good player he didn't have that big an impact.
You can dislike LBJ's style of play... but he will help us win next year.
I believe this more than if we signed PG or even Kawhi. If you took LBJ off the Cavs... they drop below .500. You took Kawhi off the Spurs and they still won 47 games. |
No one is saying Lebron won't make the team better, the issue for me anyway, is his age and the roster makeup not fitting his style of play. Lebron has played one way since highschool, and that way thrives with shooters around him, which the Lakers don't have much of. The stars rumored to team up have essentially played the same position as Bron and been his rivals in the playoffs. The young guys on the Lakers don't really mix because Ingram becomes redundant, Randle is toast, and Lonzo is a pass-first PG who can't penetrate or hit a jumper. Luke's GS influenced style of coahcing is counter to how Lebron plays.
But hey, other than those things......it all looks good.
Well...that roster isn't good enough to stop GS who have KD/Curry as 1a/1b, and then Klay as #3, with green at #4. Or even Houston. But I guess it's better to blow things up for a 2-3 year sideshow, instead of building for the next 2-3 years into a contending young team when the Warriors start to fade. Or is it? |
Ingram and Hart shot 39% from 3 with no PG or LBJ to create gravity for them to shoot. You don't think they get even more open looks or driving lanes with those two pulling defenses their way? Even Lonzo should find space with that type of gravity added to the team.
I agree they need more shooting but I believe with that gravity that Ingram shoots in the high fifties TS%... Lonzo moves to a competent level... and Hart and Kuzma also continue to improve. George is a 40% shooter from three. I assume from management's recent comments that #25 will be able to shoot.
With George this team already looks better than what Cleveland took to the finals. It's hard to project with rookies and two year players... but I feel confident we will be giving GSW fits next year if we get LBJ and PG. |
Ingram is gone if we get Lebron. They'll move him for another piece. And while some Lakers are competent at the 3-ball, it's a far cry in comparison to GS or Houston. We've seen how bad things go for Lebron led teams when those 3-pointers aren't falling, there's no other style they can shift to. At least Miami had Bosh, and Cleveland had Love who could hit the post from time to time.
And sorry, I don't see how this team matches up with GS by adding 3 SFs. I can't stress that point enough. Star power is nice, but it has to blend. |
Looney vs. Randle
KD vs. Ingram
Klay vs. PG
Draymond vs. LBJ
Curry vs. Ball
I thought the new narrative was positionless players... I see no problem with these match ups. |
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Ziggy
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Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 12712
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Kobe Jocker wrote: | | OC Lakerfan wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | We would only have to gut the team if we wanted Kawhi. Otherwise we can have Lebron and our young guys. |
The Lakers will definitely gut this team if we get Lebron. The draw for him is LA and the ability to form another star trio...not to bring along young guys at age 34. Ingram doesn't fit with Lebron/PG and/or KL. Lonzo is a passing guard with no jumpshot, so he's not a fit for Lebron either.
And how this team fits together will be key. Just look to OKC for a bad fit roster. Lebon/PG/Kl have all spent most of their time at SF, I'm not sold that we would even be getting the diversity of roles with that trio needed. No Love or Bosh like MIA or CLE had. And no penetrating guards like Wade/Kyrie. Where's the floor balance at? The Warriors all fit their roles perfectly. When they added KD, his style fit what they were already doing. Lebron will want pieces that fit around his ball-dominant style...shooters. |
Do you want shooters with Lebron or penetrating guards? You state on thingin one sentence and then another. Wade is a great shooter... |
For Lebron I would want shooters in the Klay mold. But penetrating guards do ok with Lebron, largely because they can create their own shots. Lakers don't have either. |
Players who can create their own shots struggle mightily when playing next to Lebron. |
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Kobe Jocker
Star Player
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3754
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Ziggy wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | OC Lakerfan wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | We would only have to gut the team if we wanted Kawhi. Otherwise we can have Lebron and our young guys. |
The Lakers will definitely gut this team if we get Lebron. The draw for him is LA and the ability to form another star trio...not to bring along young guys at age 34. Ingram doesn't fit with Lebron/PG and/or KL. Lonzo is a passing guard with no jumpshot, so he's not a fit for Lebron either.
And how this team fits together will be key. Just look to OKC for a bad fit roster. Lebon/PG/Kl have all spent most of their time at SF, I'm not sold that we would even be getting the diversity of roles with that trio needed. No Love or Bosh like MIA or CLE had. And no penetrating guards like Wade/Kyrie. Where's the floor balance at? The Warriors all fit their roles perfectly. When they added KD, his style fit what they were already doing. Lebron will want pieces that fit around his ball-dominant style...shooters. |
Do you want shooters with Lebron or penetrating guards? You state on thingin one sentence and then another. Wade is a great shooter... |
For Lebron I would want shooters in the Klay mold. But penetrating guards do ok with Lebron, largely because they can create their own shots. Lakers don't have either. |
Players who can create their own shots struggle mightily when playing next to Lebron. |
Wade and Kyrie didn't struggle. In fact they were the goto guys in the 4th. Both Mia and Cle has a star big, Lebron, and star penetrating guard
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"What makes you think a bartender is stupid or incapable of scouting?" ~ Rick12322 |
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LakerLanny
Retired Number
Joined: 24 Oct 2001
Posts: 47580
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| chrisca91 wrote: | | Lebron isn't coming to the Lakers alone. He's going to work something out with management. |
No stretchies! 
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Love, Laker Lanny |
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Kobe Jocker
Star Player
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3754
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Cleveland in 2003 before LBJ
17 - 65
Cleveland in 2004 after LBJ
35 - 47
No adding KCP/Brook Lopez... pretty much just adding LBJ as a rookie
Cleveland in 2013 before LBJ
33 - 49
Cleveland in 2014 after LBJ
53 - 29
Adding Kevin Love.
Los Angeles in 2018 before LBJ
35 - 47
Los Angeles in 2019 after LBJ and adding PG?
?
The man added 17 wins to the worst team in basketball as a rookie. We love all our young players but none of them added 17 wins. Only players like Kareem or Magic have that type of impact. Combined with Love he added 20 wins to a bad team. We all know that although Love is a good player he didn't have that big an impact.
You can dislike LBJ's style of play... but he will help us win next year.
I believe this more than if we signed PG or even Kawhi. If you took LBJ off the Cavs... they drop below .500. You took Kawhi off the Spurs and they still won 47 games. |
No one is saying Lebron won't make the team better, the issue for me anyway, is his age and the roster makeup not fitting his style of play. Lebron has played one way since highschool, and that way thrives with shooters around him, which the Lakers don't have much of. The stars rumored to team up have essentially played the same position as Bron and been his rivals in the playoffs. The young guys on the Lakers don't really mix because Ingram becomes redundant, Randle is toast, and Lonzo is a pass-first PG who can't penetrate or hit a jumper. Luke's GS influenced style of coahcing is counter to how Lebron plays.
But hey, other than those things......it all looks good.
Well...that roster isn't good enough to stop GS who have KD/Curry as 1a/1b, and then Klay as #3, with green at #4. Or even Houston. But I guess it's better to blow things up for a 2-3 year sideshow, instead of building for the next 2-3 years into a contending young team when the Warriors start to fade. Or is it? |
Ingram and Hart shot 39% from 3 with no PG or LBJ to create gravity for them to shoot. You don't think they get even more open looks or driving lanes with those two pulling defenses their way? Even Lonzo should find space with that type of gravity added to the team.
I agree they need more shooting but I believe with that gravity that Ingram shoots in the high fifties TS%... Lonzo moves to a competent level... and Hart and Kuzma also continue to improve. George is a 40% shooter from three. I assume from management's recent comments that #25 will be able to shoot.
With George this team already looks better than what Cleveland took to the finals. It's hard to project with rookies and two year players... but I feel confident we will be giving GSW fits next year if we get LBJ and PG. |
Ingram is gone if we get Lebron. They'll move him for another piece. And while some Lakers are competent at the 3-ball, it's a far cry in comparison to GS or Houston. We've seen how bad things go for Lebron led teams when those 3-pointers aren't falling, there's no other style they can shift to. At least Miami had Bosh, and Cleveland had Love who could hit the post from time to time.
And sorry, I don't see how this team matches up with GS by adding 3 SFs. I can't stress that point enough. Star power is nice, but it has to blend. |
Looney vs. Randle
KD vs. Ingram
Klay vs. PG
Draymond vs. LBJ
Curry vs. Ball
I thought the new narrative was positionless players... I see no problem with these match ups. |
Look at the Laker team you posted and tell me how they even win 2 games on the Warriors? I frankly would rather have Klay than PG at this point.
#1 Lebron
#2 KD
#3 Curry
#4 Klay
#5 PG
#6 Green
#7 Ball/Ingram
#8 Ingram/Ball
#9 Iggy
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"What makes you think a bartender is stupid or incapable of scouting?" ~ Rick12322 |
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Ziggy
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 12712
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | Cleveland in 2003 before LBJ
17 - 65
Cleveland in 2004 after LBJ
35 - 47
No adding KCP/Brook Lopez... pretty much just adding LBJ as a rookie
Cleveland in 2013 before LBJ
33 - 49
Cleveland in 2014 after LBJ
53 - 29
Adding Kevin Love.
Los Angeles in 2018 before LBJ
35 - 47
Los Angeles in 2019 after LBJ and adding PG?
?
The man added 18 wins to the worst team in basketball as a rookie. We love all our young players but none of them added 18 wins. Only players like Kareem or Magic have that type of impact. Combined with Love he added 20 wins to a bad team. We all know that although Love is a good player he didn't have that big an impact.
You can dislike LBJ's style of play... but he will help us win next year.
I believe this more than if we signed PG or even Kawhi. If you took LBJ off the Cavs... they drop below .500. You took Kawhi off the Spurs and they still won 47 games. |
SM, I appreciate your post, but don't entirely agree with it. As a team we've been steadily growing and improving organically. We can bring the exact same team back next season and I believe we'd win 45 games and have a real shot at making the playoffs. Our young core have worked hard to get us to this point. Randle worked his way back from a broken leg, transformed his body, and has done everything the organization asked of him. Ingram had one of the worst shooting rookie seasons ever and had stretches this season where he was our best player. Kuzma went from "who?" to steal of the draft. Hart went from DNP's to inserting himself in the "young core".
My fear, and I can already see it happening in your post, is that all of this struggle, hard work, and growth is all going to get credited to Lebron when he hops onto what we've been building. I get that it's a "1st world problem" in the NBA ecosystem to worry about who gets the credit on a top 3 team in a conference, but this is a discussion board and that's just how I feel. It won't dominate my Laker fan conscience, as winning cures all, but it'll be an annoying footnote, and another undeserved feather in Lebron's cap.
I know that sounds like a juvenile thing to be concerned with, but as CC44 said, this guy has probably gotten more undeserved credit than any superstar I can remember. Sorry that is just my rant. I still want Lebron on the team because I'm sick of watching other teams compete in the playoffs. But there are a lot of emotional layers to adding Lebron, and they're not all pretty. |
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venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | What star has Lebron elevated? Not Wade, not Bosh, not Love. Kyrie asked out because he didn’t want to play with Lebron. I know that the motto here is that proven things will change, but they don’t. |
Can someone post actual data for this? Or are we just going to go the route of that's what I think even if it flies in the face of the actual events that happened on the court?
Last I checked, Bosh, Love, and Kyrie have not been to finals without LeBron, so if we're using that metric (which isn't really that useful), their games were elevated. Unless losing is elevating your game. But lets just go with data, shall we?
And Kyrie wanted out because he wanted to be the man. He could have been playing with any other star and he would have wanted out, just like young Kobe wanted out of Shaq's shadow. |
It has been posted
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Cleveland in 2003 before LBJ
17 - 65
Cleveland in 2004 after LBJ
35 - 47
No adding KCP/Brook Lopez... pretty much just adding LBJ as a rookie
Cleveland in 2013 before LBJ
33 - 49
Cleveland in 2014 after LBJ
53 - 29
Adding Kevin Love.
Los Angeles in 2018 before LBJ
35 - 47
Los Angeles in 2019 after LBJ and adding PG?
?
The man added 17 wins to the worst team in basketball as a rookie. We love all our young players but none of them added 17 wins. Only players like Kareem or Magic have that type of impact. Combined with Love he added 20 wins to a bad team. We all know that although Love is a good player he didn't have that big an impact.
You can dislike LBJ's style of play... but he will help us win next year.
I believe this more than if we signed PG or even Kawhi. If you took LBJ off the Cavs... they drop below .500. You took Kawhi off the Spurs and they still won 47 games. |
No one is saying Lebron won't make the team better, the issue for me anyway, is his age and the roster makeup not fitting his style of play. Lebron has played one way since highschool, and that way thrives with shooters around him, which the Lakers don't have much of. The stars rumored to team up have essentially played the same position as Bron and been his rivals in the playoffs. The young guys on the Lakers don't really mix because Ingram becomes redundant, Randle is toast, and Lonzo is a pass-first PG who can't penetrate or hit a jumper. Luke's GS influenced style of coahcing is counter to how Lebron plays.
But hey, other than those things......it all looks good.
Well...that roster isn't good enough to stop GS who have KD/Curry as 1a/1b, and then Klay as #3, with green at #4. Or even Houston. But I guess it's better to blow things up for a 2-3 year sideshow, instead of building for the next 2-3 years into a contending young team when the Warriors start to fade. Or is it? |
Ingram and Hart shot 39% from 3 with no PG or LBJ to create gravity for them to shoot. You don't think they get even more open looks or driving lanes with those two pulling defenses their way? Even Lonzo should find space with that type of gravity added to the team.
I agree they need more shooting but I believe with that gravity that Ingram shoots in the high fifties TS%... Lonzo moves to a competent level... and Hart and Kuzma also continue to improve. George is a 40% shooter from three. I assume from management's recent comments that #25 will be able to shoot.
With George this team already looks better than what Cleveland took to the finals. It's hard to project with rookies and two year players... but I feel confident we will be giving GSW fits next year if we get LBJ and PG. |
Ingram is gone if we get Lebron. They'll move him for another piece. And while some Lakers are competent at the 3-ball, it's a far cry in comparison to GS or Houston. We've seen how bad things go for Lebron led teams when those 3-pointers aren't falling, there's no other style they can shift to. At least Miami had Bosh, and Cleveland had Love who could hit the post from time to time.
And sorry, I don't see how this team matches up with GS by adding 3 SFs. I can't stress that point enough. Star power is nice, but it has to blend. |
Looney vs. Randle
KD vs. Ingram
Klay vs. PG
Draymond vs. LBJ
Curry vs. Ball
I thought the new narrative was positionless players... I see no problem with these match ups. |
Look at the Laker team you posted and tell me how they even win 2 games on the Warriors? I frankly would rather have Klay than PG at this point.
#1 Lebron
#2 KD
#3 Curry
#4 Klay
#5 PG
#6 Green
#7 Ball/Ingram
#8 Ingram/Ball
#9 Iggy |
Randle dominates Looney
Lopez beats JaVale
KD beats Ingram
PG beats Klay
Hart will be pretty even with Iggy because of age
LBJ dominates Draymond
Curry beats Ball
All of this depends on how much growth Ingram and Ball have... if it is significant... we are right there. |
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secund2nun
Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Jun 2018
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Cleveland in 2003 before LBJ
17 - 65
Cleveland in 2004 after LBJ
35 - 47
No adding KCP/Brook Lopez... pretty much just adding LBJ as a rookie
Cleveland in 2013 before LBJ
33 - 49
Cleveland in 2014 after LBJ
53 - 29
Adding Kevin Love.
Los Angeles in 2018 before LBJ
35 - 47
Los Angeles in 2019 after LBJ and adding PG?
?
The man added 17 wins to the worst team in basketball as a rookie. We love all our young players but none of them added 17 wins. Only players like Kareem or Magic have that type of impact. Combined with Love he added 20 wins to a bad team. We all know that although Love is a good player he didn't have that big an impact.
You can dislike LBJ's style of play... but he will help us win next year.
I believe this more than if we signed PG or even Kawhi. If you took LBJ off the Cavs... they drop below .500. You took Kawhi off the Spurs and they still won 47 games. |
No one is saying Lebron won't make the team better, the issue for me anyway, is his age and the roster makeup not fitting his style of play. Lebron has played one way since highschool, and that way thrives with shooters around him, which the Lakers don't have much of. The stars rumored to team up have essentially played the same position as Bron and been his rivals in the playoffs. The young guys on the Lakers don't really mix because Ingram becomes redundant, Randle is toast, and Lonzo is a pass-first PG who can't penetrate or hit a jumper. Luke's GS influenced style of coahcing is counter to how Lebron plays.
But hey, other than those things......it all looks good.
Well...that roster isn't good enough to stop GS who have KD/Curry as 1a/1b, and then Klay as #3, with green at #4. Or even Houston. But I guess it's better to blow things up for a 2-3 year sideshow, instead of building for the next 2-3 years into a contending young team when the Warriors start to fade. Or is it? |
Ingram and Hart shot 39% from 3 with no PG or LBJ to create gravity for them to shoot. You don't think they get even more open looks or driving lanes with those two pulling defenses their way? Even Lonzo should find space with that type of gravity added to the team.
I agree they need more shooting but I believe with that gravity that Ingram shoots in the high fifties TS%... Lonzo moves to a competent level... and Hart and Kuzma also continue to improve. George is a 40% shooter from three. I assume from management's recent comments that #25 will be able to shoot.
With George this team already looks better than what Cleveland took to the finals. It's hard to project with rookies and two year players... but I feel confident we will be giving GSW fits next year if we get LBJ and PG. |
Ingram is gone if we get Lebron. They'll move him for another piece. And while some Lakers are competent at the 3-ball, it's a far cry in comparison to GS or Houston. We've seen how bad things go for Lebron led teams when those 3-pointers aren't falling, there's no other style they can shift to. At least Miami had Bosh, and Cleveland had Love who could hit the post from time to time.
And sorry, I don't see how this team matches up with GS by adding 3 SFs. I can't stress that point enough. Star power is nice, but it has to blend. |
Looney vs. Randle
KD vs. Ingram
Klay vs. PG
Draymond vs. LBJ
Curry vs. Ball
I thought the new narrative was positionless players... I see no problem with these match ups. |
Look at the Laker team you posted and tell me how they even win 2 games on the Warriors? I frankly would rather have Klay than PG at this point.
#1 Lebron
#2 KD
#3 Curry
#4 Klay
#5 PG
#6 Green
#7 Ball/Ingram
#8 Ingram/Ball
#9 Iggy |
This is what I would argue:
Lebron is by far the best player in the NBA and in the series. The gap between Lebron and KD is huge. That accounts for something. Cleveland, despite having a terrible roster and garbage HC, should have won game 1 of the finals, but the refs stole it from them. This LA team with Lebron, PG, and company is much better than this year's Cleveland team. Also the depth and HC are much better.
Also a series is not ranked based off of ranking the players. It is about match ups. Remember the 2015 finals? The gap between Curry's and Dellavedova's performance in that finals was way smaller than anyone expected it to be. In fact, Curry has underperfomed by a good margin in most of his NBA finals so far. |
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Kobe Jocker
Star Player
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3754
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Cleveland in 2003 before LBJ
17 - 65
Cleveland in 2004 after LBJ
35 - 47
No adding KCP/Brook Lopez... pretty much just adding LBJ as a rookie
Cleveland in 2013 before LBJ
33 - 49
Cleveland in 2014 after LBJ
53 - 29
Adding Kevin Love.
Los Angeles in 2018 before LBJ
35 - 47
Los Angeles in 2019 after LBJ and adding PG?
?
The man added 17 wins to the worst team in basketball as a rookie. We love all our young players but none of them added 17 wins. Only players like Kareem or Magic have that type of impact. Combined with Love he added 20 wins to a bad team. We all know that although Love is a good player he didn't have that big an impact.
You can dislike LBJ's style of play... but he will help us win next year.
I believe this more than if we signed PG or even Kawhi. If you took LBJ off the Cavs... they drop below .500. You took Kawhi off the Spurs and they still won 47 games. |
No one is saying Lebron won't make the team better, the issue for me anyway, is his age and the roster makeup not fitting his style of play. Lebron has played one way since highschool, and that way thrives with shooters around him, which the Lakers don't have much of. The stars rumored to team up have essentially played the same position as Bron and been his rivals in the playoffs. The young guys on the Lakers don't really mix because Ingram becomes redundant, Randle is toast, and Lonzo is a pass-first PG who can't penetrate or hit a jumper. Luke's GS influenced style of coahcing is counter to how Lebron plays.
But hey, other than those things......it all looks good.
Well...that roster isn't good enough to stop GS who have KD/Curry as 1a/1b, and then Klay as #3, with green at #4. Or even Houston. But I guess it's better to blow things up for a 2-3 year sideshow, instead of building for the next 2-3 years into a contending young team when the Warriors start to fade. Or is it? |
Ingram and Hart shot 39% from 3 with no PG or LBJ to create gravity for them to shoot. You don't think they get even more open looks or driving lanes with those two pulling defenses their way? Even Lonzo should find space with that type of gravity added to the team.
I agree they need more shooting but I believe with that gravity that Ingram shoots in the high fifties TS%... Lonzo moves to a competent level... and Hart and Kuzma also continue to improve. George is a 40% shooter from three. I assume from management's recent comments that #25 will be able to shoot.
With George this team already looks better than what Cleveland took to the finals. It's hard to project with rookies and two year players... but I feel confident we will be giving GSW fits next year if we get LBJ and PG. |
Ingram is gone if we get Lebron. They'll move him for another piece. And while some Lakers are competent at the 3-ball, it's a far cry in comparison to GS or Houston. We've seen how bad things go for Lebron led teams when those 3-pointers aren't falling, there's no other style they can shift to. At least Miami had Bosh, and Cleveland had Love who could hit the post from time to time.
And sorry, I don't see how this team matches up with GS by adding 3 SFs. I can't stress that point enough. Star power is nice, but it has to blend. |
Looney vs. Randle
KD vs. Ingram
Klay vs. PG
Draymond vs. LBJ
Curry vs. Ball
I thought the new narrative was positionless players... I see no problem with these match ups. |
Look at the Laker team you posted and tell me how they even win 2 games on the Warriors? I frankly would rather have Klay than PG at this point.
#1 Lebron
#2 KD
#3 Curry
#4 Klay
#5 PG
#6 Green
#7 Ball/Ingram
#8 Ingram/Ball
#9 Iggy |
Randle dominates Looney
Lopez beats JaVale
KD beats Ingram
PG beats Klay
Hart will be pretty even with Iggy because of age
LBJ dominates Draymond
Curry beats Ball
All of this depends on how much growth Ingram and Ball have... if it is significant... we are right there. |
I love your optimism but I think you're reaching quite a bit. The backcourt of Curry/Klay outmatches Ball/PG. Lebron is better than KD, but it's not that big of a gap if he's not being as ball-dominant as before. Their frontcourt has the edge over ours, and their bench is deeper
Where are our mismatches? At least Cleveland had Kyrie a couple years ago to test Curry. Love could create problems here and there. That Laker roster has zero mismatches.
_________________
"What makes you think a bartender is stupid or incapable of scouting?" ~ Rick12322 |
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RG73
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Ziggy wrote: |
Players who can create their own shots struggle mightily when playing next to Lebron. |
Like Kyrie?
2016-17 FGAs 19.7 FGA per 100 possessions 28.1 Usage 30.8%
2017-18 FGAs 18.1 FGA per 100 possessions 28.1 Usage 31.0%
Want assists too? Assists per 100 w/LeBron 8.3 in Boston 7.9 Ortg? 116 w/LeBron 118 in Boston 3pt % 40.1% w/LeBron 40.8% in Boston
PPG 25.2 w/LeBron 24.4 in Boston
OWS 7.4 w/LeBron, 6.3 in Boston....so OBPM we do see an effect +4.8 w/LeBron, +6.9 in Boston, but worth noting that his first season as a rookie he was at +4.9 as well.
If you can find some advanced metrics, I'd love to see them. On a gross level he's pretty much inelastic with or without LeBron, therefore I'd conclude he didn't struggle creating his own shot or for others with LeBron. |
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RG73
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | It has been posted |
Well I will try to find it because the data I'm looking at doesn't show such an effect. |
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mj32
Starting Rotation
Joined: 07 Jul 2012
Posts: 585
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| For those that don’t want lebron, what is your alternative solutions? |
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Ziggy
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 12712
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not sure Kyrie is the greatest example considering he put a gun to Cleveland's head just to get away from Lebron. This might be news to some, but these are human beings, not numbers on a screen. |
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Kobe Jocker
Star Player
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3754
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| secund2nun wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Kobe Jocker wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Cleveland in 2003 before LBJ
17 - 65
Cleveland in 2004 after LBJ
35 - 47
No adding KCP/Brook Lopez... pretty much just adding LBJ as a rookie
Cleveland in 2013 before LBJ
33 - 49
Cleveland in 2014 after LBJ
53 - 29
Adding Kevin Love.
Los Angeles in 2018 before LBJ
35 - 47
Los Angeles in 2019 after LBJ and adding PG?
?
The man added 17 wins to the worst team in basketball as a rookie. We love all our young players but none of them added 17 wins. Only players like Kareem or Magic have that type of impact. Combined with Love he added 20 wins to a bad team. We all know that although Love is a good player he didn't have that big an impact.
You can dislike LBJ's style of play... but he will help us win next year.
I believe this more than if we signed PG or even Kawhi. If you took LBJ off the Cavs... they drop below .500. You took Kawhi off the Spurs and they still won 47 games. |
No one is saying Lebron won't make the team better, the issue for me anyway, is his age and the roster makeup not fitting his style of play. Lebron has played one way since highschool, and that way thrives with shooters around him, which the Lakers don't have much of. The stars rumored to team up have essentially played the same position as Bron and been his rivals in the playoffs. The young guys on the Lakers don't really mix because Ingram becomes redundant, Randle is toast, and Lonzo is a pass-first PG who can't penetrate or hit a jumper. Luke's GS influenced style of coahcing is counter to how Lebron plays.
But hey, other than those things......it all looks good.
Well...that roster isn't good enough to stop GS who have KD/Curry as 1a/1b, and then Klay as #3, with green at #4. Or even Houston. But I guess it's better to blow things up for a 2-3 year sideshow, instead of building for the next 2-3 years into a contending young team when the Warriors start to fade. Or is it? |
Ingram and Hart shot 39% from 3 with no PG or LBJ to create gravity for them to shoot. You don't think they get even more open looks or driving lanes with those two pulling defenses their way? Even Lonzo should find space with that type of gravity added to the team.
I agree they need more shooting but I believe with that gravity that Ingram shoots in the high fifties TS%... Lonzo moves to a competent level... and Hart and Kuzma also continue to improve. George is a 40% shooter from three. I assume from management's recent comments that #25 will be able to shoot.
With George this team already looks better than what Cleveland took to the finals. It's hard to project with rookies and two year players... but I feel confident we will be giving GSW fits next year if we get LBJ and PG. |
Ingram is gone if we get Lebron. They'll move him for another piece. And while some Lakers are competent at the 3-ball, it's a far cry in comparison to GS or Houston. We've seen how bad things go for Lebron led teams when those 3-pointers aren't falling, there's no other style they can shift to. At least Miami had Bosh, and Cleveland had Love who could hit the post from time to time.
And sorry, I don't see how this team matches up with GS by adding 3 SFs. I can't stress that point enough. Star power is nice, but it has to blend. |
Looney vs. Randle
KD vs. Ingram
Klay vs. PG
Draymond vs. LBJ
Curry vs. Ball
I thought the new narrative was positionless players... I see no problem with these match ups. |
Look at the Laker team you posted and tell me how they even win 2 games on the Warriors? I frankly would rather have Klay than PG at this point.
#1 Lebron
#2 KD
#3 Curry
#4 Klay
#5 PG
#6 Green
#7 Ball/Ingram
#8 Ingram/Ball
#9 Iggy |
This is what I would argue:
Lebron is by far the best player in the NBA and in the series. The gap between Lebron and KD is huge. That accounts for something. Cleveland, despite having a terrible roster and garbage HC, should have won game 1 of the finals, but the refs stole it from them. This LA team with Lebron, PG, and company is much better than this year's Cleveland team. Also the depth and HC are much better.
Also a series is not ranked based off of ranking the players. It is about match ups. Remember the 2015 finals? The gap between Curry's and Dellavedova's performance in that finals was way smaller than anyone expected it to be. In fact, Curry has underperfomed by a good margin in most of his NBA finals so far. |
The gap between KD and Lebron is not huge at all at this point in their careers. In the Finals Lebron wasn't even checking KD defensively. Pretty sure KD dropped a trip-double in the Finals the previous year too.
Is Lebron/PG > Lebron/Love? I mean Love was a 20/10 guy for them and that still wasn't enough.
_________________
"What makes you think a bartender is stupid or incapable of scouting?" ~ Rick12322 |
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Jesusdelonla
Franchise Player
Joined: 24 Jan 2018
Posts: 15430
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| does anybody think LA reports are diversion for rockets? |
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secund2nun
Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Jun 2018
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Ziggy wrote: | | I'm not sure Kyrie is the greatest example considering he put a gun to Cleveland's head just to get away from Lebron. This might be news to some, but these are human beings, not numbers on a screen. |
I read reports from Cleveland that say Kyrie wanted out because he knew that Lebron was leaving after this year. |
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LakerSD
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23778
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Jesusdelonla wrote: | | does anybody think LA reports are diversion for rockets? |
Part of me thinks this, but history suggests that Lebron tends to leave a trail of breadcrumbs. The breadcrumbs have been pointing to LA.
I am not 100% convinced until I see him in a lakers jersey, but sigining with rockets would go against Lebron’s history of FA decisions where he leaves a trail.
Last edited by LakerSD on Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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