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King Randle Star Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2014 Posts: 7313
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:18 am Post subject: |
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lakez34 wrote: | lakerican wrote: | I almost broke my TV when with 3:10 remaining, he let BEVERLY, who was behind him get that offensive rebound in the free throw miss!! |
Definitely upsetting. Bron looked slow and old throughout a large part of the game, esp in the 2nd half. And, when he started playing the James Harden defense of standing, watching, and directing others, I knew the game was over.
I don't think it was a coincidence that the team went on a huge run with Bron on the bench in the 2nd half. He was gassed/tired or just not "in it" and it felt like the team played better D and had better energy without him during that stretch. I don't know what the analytics say behind it, but that's what it felt like. |
He was gassed...the guy shouldn't be bringing the ball up every time and setting up for others. He needs to score for us and he's too gassed. Vogel, Kidd and Hollins better figure that out or this season won't be so nice. |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Lebron played defense. I disagree with that criticism. This was not a game where Lebron coasted.
What I was concerned about (and this goes to preseason) how many layups or drives Lebron is missing. He doesn't seem to be able to get those easy drive through the entire defense type of PG drives as much. The athleticism can not be the same at 35 that it would be at 28.
So he has to adjust and he has to start being more accurate with his layups. He has been missing a lot of his drives this year.
His defense though ... I have no issues with. The entire team played with a good effort on D most of the game. We did not lose this game because our starters lacked D. We lost this game when the Clippers bench came in and spanked our far superior bench. And then for some reason we came back at them with an ISO AD heavy offense, instead of a combination of ISOs and pick and rolls. |
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BobbyB Star Player
Joined: 05 Feb 2013 Posts: 2489
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:35 am Post subject: |
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This is what I saw from Lebron.
Indecisiveness and hesitancy to shoot.
The way this team is constructed needs LeBron to be a scorer. And I don't know if he is comfortable with that role or has ever been.
Hes had great scorers anytime he's won. Irving, wade
Overall he played hard last night. And I dont have any criticism towards his effort. |
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Ziggy Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 12712
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:44 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | Lebron played defense. I disagree with that criticism. This was not a game where Lebron coasted.
What I was concerned about (and this goes to preseason) how many layups or drives Lebron is missing. He doesn't seem to be able to get those easy drive through the entire defense type of PG drives as much. The athleticism can not be the same at 35 that it would be at 28.
So he has to adjust and he has to start being more accurate with his layups. He has been missing a lot of his drives this year.
His defense though ... I have no issues with. The entire team played with a good effort on D most of the game. We did not lose this game because our starters lacked D. We lost this game when the Clippers bench came in and spanked our far superior bench. And then for some reason we came back at them with an ISO AD heavy offense, instead of a combination of ISOs and pick and rolls. |
I thought Lebron's D was good when it showed and bad when it didn't. But I agree that overall it was good enough. I don't even want him playing hard defense all season. He'll wear out before the all-star break.
Even Kobe needed Ariza and Artest to take that role off his hands once he was in his 30's. We can't expect Lebron at 35 to be on the all-defense team. Iggy would help a lot in the playoffs but even he needed load management in the regular season.
I think where Lebron hurt us the most was the turnovers. He was not decisive with the ball and tried too hard to get AD going. He wasn't assertive enough. He did this when he joined Miami and the first few weeks after joining us. He needs to forget about the title of "point guard" and just be Lebron. |
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bluehill Starting Rotation
Joined: 06 Jul 2009 Posts: 890
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Interesting piece about the game
Quote: | The Clippers chose to switch the Davis-James pick-and-roll, then take advantage of the fact Lakers coach Frank Vogel was playing a traditional center (JaVale McGee to start, Dwight Howard off the bench) to clog James’s driving lanes and make him try to either finish over length and in traffic or spray the ball back out to the perimeter through a thicket of limbs. With that would-be bread-and-butter play not generating many clean looks, and with James’s jumper not falling—he went just 3-for-11 from farther than 4 feet out, according to pbpstats.com—the Lakers instead opted to pound the ball in to Davis on the block. Davis logged 17 post-up possessions on Tuesday, nearly four times more than what he averaged last season, according to game-charting from Synergy Sports Technology cited by Justin Russo of the Settle Down Podcast.
The more the Lakers leaned on that look, the more predictable their plan of attack became. The Clippers bumped the cutters coming across the lane to set cross-screens that might spring Davis free. They ramped up ball pressure on the handler trying to make the entry pass, or had the on-ball defender sag back to try to deflect the lob pass over the top—whatever worked to disrupt the timing of both the pass and the catch. When Davis did get the ball, they showed double-teams, whether from the top side with guards like Lou Williams threatening to dig down into the post, or from the back side, sliding a helping big across the baseline as AD made his move to try to force him into traffic under the basket. (Mo Harkless, in particular, was great as a disruptive force on Davis’s catches, coming up with five deflections and four steals in a strong first game in Clippers blue.) |
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/10/23/20928448/lakers-clippers-opening-night-struggles-lebron-james-anthony-davis |
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Ziggy Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 12712
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:08 am Post subject: |
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bluehill wrote: | Interesting piece about the game
Quote: | The Clippers chose to switch the Davis-James pick-and-roll, then take advantage of the fact Lakers coach Frank Vogel was playing a traditional center (JaVale McGee to start, Dwight Howard off the bench) to clog James’s driving lanes and make him try to either finish over length and in traffic or spray the ball back out to the perimeter through a thicket of limbs. With that would-be bread-and-butter play not generating many clean looks, and with James’s jumper not falling—he went just 3-for-11 from farther than 4 feet out, according to pbpstats.com—the Lakers instead opted to pound the ball in to Davis on the block. Davis logged 17 post-up possessions on Tuesday, nearly four times more than what he averaged last season, according to game-charting from Synergy Sports Technology cited by Justin Russo of the Settle Down Podcast.
The more the Lakers leaned on that look, the more predictable their plan of attack became. The Clippers bumped the cutters coming across the lane to set cross-screens that might spring Davis free. They ramped up ball pressure on the handler trying to make the entry pass, or had the on-ball defender sag back to try to deflect the lob pass over the top—whatever worked to disrupt the timing of both the pass and the catch. When Davis did get the ball, they showed double-teams, whether from the top side with guards like Lou Williams threatening to dig down into the post, or from the back side, sliding a helping big across the baseline as AD made his move to try to force him into traffic under the basket. (Mo Harkless, in particular, was great as a disruptive force on Davis’s catches, coming up with five deflections and four steals in a strong first game in Clippers blue.) |
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/10/23/20928448/lakers-clippers-opening-night-struggles-lebron-james-anthony-davis |
Seemed like we barely even ran the Lebron/AD pick n roll. I'm not sure how much of that was forced by the Clippers defensive schemes or just the Lakers choosing not to go to it. |
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bluehill Starting Rotation
Joined: 06 Jul 2009 Posts: 890
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Ziggy wrote: | bluehill wrote: | Interesting piece about the game
Quote: | The Clippers chose to switch the Davis-James pick-and-roll, then take advantage of the fact Lakers coach Frank Vogel was playing a traditional center (JaVale McGee to start, Dwight Howard off the bench) to clog James’s driving lanes and make him try to either finish over length and in traffic or spray the ball back out to the perimeter through a thicket of limbs. With that would-be bread-and-butter play not generating many clean looks, and with James’s jumper not falling—he went just 3-for-11 from farther than 4 feet out, according to pbpstats.com—the Lakers instead opted to pound the ball in to Davis on the block. Davis logged 17 post-up possessions on Tuesday, nearly four times more than what he averaged last season, according to game-charting from Synergy Sports Technology cited by Justin Russo of the Settle Down Podcast.
The more the Lakers leaned on that look, the more predictable their plan of attack became. The Clippers bumped the cutters coming across the lane to set cross-screens that might spring Davis free. They ramped up ball pressure on the handler trying to make the entry pass, or had the on-ball defender sag back to try to deflect the lob pass over the top—whatever worked to disrupt the timing of both the pass and the catch. When Davis did get the ball, they showed double-teams, whether from the top side with guards like Lou Williams threatening to dig down into the post, or from the back side, sliding a helping big across the baseline as AD made his move to try to force him into traffic under the basket. (Mo Harkless, in particular, was great as a disruptive force on Davis’s catches, coming up with five deflections and four steals in a strong first game in Clippers blue.) |
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/10/23/20928448/lakers-clippers-opening-night-struggles-lebron-james-anthony-davis |
Seemed like we barely even ran the Lebron/AD pick n roll. I'm not sure how much of that was forced by the Clippers defensive schemes or just the Lakers choosing not to go to it. |
I think what the article is saying that whoever was guarding JaVale or Dwight could sag off, since neither is much of an outside threat, and clog the paint for the roll guy. So the Lakers went away from it because it wasn’t working well. |
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PICKnPOP Star Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2014 Posts: 5356
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Simple fix to that is to finish the games with davis at center and surround LBJ and davis with shooters. We can’t do that all game though so Vogel needs to out a damn offense in that doesn’t involve iso and post ups _________________ “like I never left”
#1 |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:41 am Post subject: |
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PICKnPOP wrote: | Simple fix to that is to finish the games with davis at center and surround LBJ and davis with shooters. We can’t do that all game though so Vogel needs to out a damn offense in that doesn’t involve iso and post ups |
Like a lineup of AD, Lebron, Green, Cook/Daniels and KCP?
I can't put a finger on it, but I saw that somewhere. |
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ElginBaylor Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 10771 Location: Hoosier Nation
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:06 am Post subject: |
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epak wrote: | PICKnPOP wrote: | Simple fix to that is to finish the games with davis at center and surround LBJ and davis with shooters. We can’t do that all game though so Vogel needs to out a damn offense in that doesn’t involve iso and post ups |
Like a lineup of AD, Lebron, Green, Cook/Daniels and KCP?
I can't put a finger on it, but I saw that somewhere. |
We're definitely still in the "experimental" stage of development. Gotta throw different sets and lineups against the wall to see which ones stick. _________________ Not a legend |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Honestly, what separates LBJ from a guy like Kobe or even a younger LBJ is that the latter would have insisted on trying to shut down Kawhi. I remember a young LBJ asking his coach to let him shut down the on-fire MVP Derrick Rose. LBJ completely shut that down. Kobe, well, we know. Even when older and less defensively apt, I appreciated the tenacity to defend the top guy in tough situations.
I want to see that from LBJ. Yes, it's tiring to do all that but you have to set the tone for the team.
Bev, all 6'0 of him was trying to bang with LBJ. LBJ crushed him but the message was sent that the Clips weren't afraid of the Lakers. Set the tone. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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SPO200 Star Player
Joined: 28 Jun 2018 Posts: 1458
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:25 am Post subject: |
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It's worrisome that we were able to even lead the match in the third quarter precisely when Lebron sat down. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:35 am Post subject: |
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SPO200 wrote: | It's worrisome that we were able to even lead the match in the third quarter precisely when Lebron sat down. |
You can't see a game simply in snapshots. Much like we had our biggest lead with LBJ in the 1st Q.
We had some very disturbing substitutions. It was holistically troubling to see what the strategy was. LBJ certainly didn't have a great game. But it fell on so many different issues too. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Beir32 Star Player
Joined: 16 Feb 2016 Posts: 1710 Location: Western PA
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:48 am Post subject: |
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I have a feeling this performance will be an outlier after we get a few weeks into the season. Remember this isn’t a “team” yet. It’s just a dozen guys trying to figure out how to play together. When everyone settles into their roles things begin to go smoothly.
I do anticipate the usual suspects blaming every loss on Lebron however. No matter what. |
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PHILosophize Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2012 Posts: 10758
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:49 am Post subject: |
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SPO200 wrote: | It's worrisome that we were able to even lead the match in the third quarter precisely when Lebron sat down. |
soccer _________________ one dog goes that way the other dog goes the other way |
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ZeroDark30_ Star Player
Joined: 27 Feb 2019 Posts: 8656
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Honestly, what separates LBJ from a guy like Kobe or even a younger LBJ is that the latter would have insisted on trying to shut down Kawhi. I remember a young LBJ asking his coach to let him shut down the on-fire MVP Derrick Rose. LBJ completely shut that down. Kobe, well, we know. Even when older and less defensively apt, I appreciated the tenacity to defend the top guy in tough situations.
I want to see that from LBJ. Yes, it's tiring to do all that but you have to set the tone for the team.
Bev, all 6'0 of him was trying to bang with LBJ. LBJ crushed him but the message was sent that the Clips weren't afraid of the Lakers. Set the tone. |
I really don’t think people understand the energy it takes to bring the ball up. Set the offense, be expected to be 1 or 2 in scoring and play good to great defense so you won’t get ripped by fans and media every night. LeBron was also our second best rebounder. He can’t do it all anymore. Not at 34. That’s all nice and well with Kobe but LeBron has different responsibilities. People praise Kawhi but all he was asked to do was score. He also didn’t guard LeBron all game. He was fresh thanks to Lou Will who handled scoring and playmaking duties. If we don’t get a reliable secondary creator (no not Rondo) then he will be gassed by April. |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | Kevin O'Connor
@KevinOConnorNBA
The Lakers logged 27 post-ups last night, an abnormal amount by today's standards. Davis had 17. LeBron had 10.
It was effective, they scored 1.3 points per play. But how frequently will it be used moving forward? The last team to average over 25 post-ups was the 2015-16 Knicks. |
So that's the conundrum. Good PPP of 1.3 per play. But it's an antiquated system that will in the long run, fall to a team shooting and making more 3s. |
And that's on a night where I thought we were bad at getting AD the ball, and AD wasn't really utilizing the post up properly. That PPP was probably that high due to all the fouling. However, I honestly believe it's not even close to what the potential of those plays are. It should be mixed in with a lot of pick and rolls with Lebron/AD or Lebron/5 man. It will really be hard to defend. |
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RI Laker Star Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 7134
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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If I told you that we combined for 59 points aside of LJ and AD, we outrebounded the opposition, and we hit more 3's than our opponent, you would think that we crushed the competition. LB was gassed. I hate to say it as I know many are down on him, but this team needs Rondo. We have no other player who can consistently create from the top for others (or at least force a defense to move and make a mistake with their rotations). |
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SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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ZeroDark30_ wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Honestly, what separates LBJ from a guy like Kobe or even a younger LBJ is that the latter would have insisted on trying to shut down Kawhi. I remember a young LBJ asking his coach to let him shut down the on-fire MVP Derrick Rose. LBJ completely shut that down. Kobe, well, we know. Even when older and less defensively apt, I appreciated the tenacity to defend the top guy in tough situations.
I want to see that from LBJ. Yes, it's tiring to do all that but you have to set the tone for the team.
Bev, all 6'0 of him was trying to bang with LBJ. LBJ crushed him but the message was sent that the Clips weren't afraid of the Lakers. Set the tone. |
I really don’t think people understand the energy it takes to bring the ball up. Set the offense, be expected to be 1 or 2 in scoring and play good to great defense so you won’t get ripped by fans and media every night. LeBron was also our second best rebounder. He can’t do it all anymore. Not at 34. That’s all nice and well with Kobe but LeBron has different responsibilities. People praise Kawhi but all he was asked to do was score. He also didn’t guard LeBron all game. He was fresh thanks to Lou Will who handled scoring and playmaking duties. If we don’t get a reliable secondary creator (no not Rondo) then he will be gassed by April. |
I agree, asking him to take on the opposing teams best perimeter threat is a bit much at this stage of his career. He would have done it if he were capable. Seemed apparent to me that he didn't want any parts of that match-up.
Last edited by SocalDevin on Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Good to see that most agree.. It wasn't really Bron's fault for how he looked last night.
These coaches need to earn their pay. Anybody in this thread can do the coaching job they did against the Clips.
If they keep this up we're going to end up with an injured Bron and AD from over exertion. |
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Zillethai Starting Rotation
Joined: 22 Dec 2017 Posts: 980
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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When is Kobe coming back? |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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SocalDevin wrote: | ZeroDark30_ wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Honestly, what separates LBJ from a guy like Kobe or even a younger LBJ is that the latter would have insisted on trying to shut down Kawhi. I remember a young LBJ asking his coach to let him shut down the on-fire MVP Derrick Rose. LBJ completely shut that down. Kobe, well, we know. Even when older and less defensively apt, I appreciated the tenacity to defend the top guy in tough situations.
I want to see that from LBJ. Yes, it's tiring to do all that but you have to set the tone for the team.
Bev, all 6'0 of him was trying to bang with LBJ. LBJ crushed him but the message was sent that the Clips weren't afraid of the Lakers. Set the tone. |
I really don’t think people understand the energy it takes to bring the ball up. Set the offense, be expected to be 1 or 2 in scoring and play good to great defense so you won’t get ripped by fans and media every night. LeBron was also our second best rebounder. He can’t do it all anymore. Not at 34. That’s all nice and well with Kobe but LeBron has different responsibilities. People praise Kawhi but all he was asked to do was score. He also didn’t guard LeBron all game. He was fresh thanks to Lou Will who handled scoring and playmaking duties. If we don’t get a reliable secondary creator (no not Rondo) then he will be gassed by April. |
I agree, asking him to take on the opposing teams best perimeter threat is a bit much at this stage of his career. He would have done it if he were capable. Seemed apparent to me that he didn't want any parts of that match-up. |
I’m not talking about the whole game. But when he was radioactive hot. Take the challenge to slow him down. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | ZeroDark30_ wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Honestly, what separates LBJ from a guy like Kobe or even a younger LBJ is that the latter would have insisted on trying to shut down Kawhi. I remember a young LBJ asking his coach to let him shut down the on-fire MVP Derrick Rose. LBJ completely shut that down. Kobe, well, we know. Even when older and less defensively apt, I appreciated the tenacity to defend the top guy in tough situations.
I want to see that from LBJ. Yes, it's tiring to do all that but you have to set the tone for the team.
Bev, all 6'0 of him was trying to bang with LBJ. LBJ crushed him but the message was sent that the Clips weren't afraid of the Lakers. Set the tone. |
I really don’t think people understand the energy it takes to bring the ball up. Set the offense, be expected to be 1 or 2 in scoring and play good to great defense so you won’t get ripped by fans and media every night. LeBron was also our second best rebounder. He can’t do it all anymore. Not at 34. That’s all nice and well with Kobe but LeBron has different responsibilities. People praise Kawhi but all he was asked to do was score. He also didn’t guard LeBron all game. He was fresh thanks to Lou Will who handled scoring and playmaking duties. If we don’t get a reliable secondary creator (no not Rondo) then he will be gassed by April. |
I agree, asking him to take on the opposing teams best perimeter threat is a bit much at this stage of his career. He would have done it if he were capable. Seemed apparent to me that he didn't want any parts of that match-up. |
I’m not talking about the whole game. But when he was radioactive hot. Take the challenge to slow him down. |
Yeah I understood, I just don't think he's that guy anymore. I'm pretty sure he would have been all over that match-up if he were capable. |
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LaLaLakeShow Star Player
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 Posts: 2989
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | ZeroDark30_ wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Honestly, what separates LBJ from a guy like Kobe or even a younger LBJ is that the latter would have insisted on trying to shut down Kawhi. I remember a young LBJ asking his coach to let him shut down the on-fire MVP Derrick Rose. LBJ completely shut that down. Kobe, well, we know. Even when older and less defensively apt, I appreciated the tenacity to defend the top guy in tough situations.
I want to see that from LBJ. Yes, it's tiring to do all that but you have to set the tone for the team.
Bev, all 6'0 of him was trying to bang with LBJ. LBJ crushed him but the message was sent that the Clips weren't afraid of the Lakers. Set the tone. |
I really don’t think people understand the energy it takes to bring the ball up. Set the offense, be expected to be 1 or 2 in scoring and play good to great defense so you won’t get ripped by fans and media every night. LeBron was also our second best rebounder. He can’t do it all anymore. Not at 34. That’s all nice and well with Kobe but LeBron has different responsibilities. People praise Kawhi but all he was asked to do was score. He also didn’t guard LeBron all game. He was fresh thanks to Lou Will who handled scoring and playmaking duties. If we don’t get a reliable secondary creator (no not Rondo) then he will be gassed by April. |
I agree, asking him to take on the opposing teams best perimeter threat is a bit much at this stage of his career. He would have done it if he were capable. Seemed apparent to me that he didn't want any parts of that match-up. |
I’m not talking about the whole game. But when he was radioactive hot. Take the challenge to slow him down. |
Totally agree. All time greats don’t get the luxury of these types of excuses. |
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Drifts Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004 Posts: 28374
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Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Lebron looked really old... he reminded me of a 90s player. if this was the 90s, Lebron would have dominated _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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