The LEBRON JAMES Thread - Give The Man His RESPECT!
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:47 pm    Post subject:

RG73 wrote:
activeverb wrote:


Yeah, I think more people look at it like this:


50s -- Mikan
60s -- Wilt/Russell
70s -- Kareem
80s -- Bird/Magic
90s -- MJ
00s -- Kobe/Shaq/Duncan
10s -- Lebron


I don't think the era approach does anything to focus or improve the discussion. It's just that the consensus top 10 guys happen to break down fairly well on a decade by decade basis.

All this does, really, is micro-segment the argument about who the best guy in the 60s and 2000s was. (Most people tend to give Magic the nod in the 80s)


I think the era distinction is important insofar as putting guys into a bin that reflects the competition, rules and idiosyncratic events of their era. That Wilt and Russell still figure so highly in these GOAT discussions is problematic for me insofar as so there are relatively few people who even remember seeing them play and they played in a vastly different league under vastly different rules.

If we put a young Bill Russell or Wilt into today's NBA as a rookie, I'm willing to concede they becomes an all-stars, but how big is the gap in talent between them and the other best bigs in the league? Like are they right up there with AD and Giannis? Even better? I mean just look at the 61-62 season where Wilt averaged 50 and 25. In terms of quality bigs there was Russell (6'9") and Bellamy (6'11") on 9 total teams. There were a couple other 7 footers, but they weren't talented. Even if one were to concede all the mythical Wilt athleticism stories, throw him in today's league with athletic bigs on every team, long, super athletic wings on every team, and the modern defensive schemes. He's probably a 25 and 12 kind of player instead of 50 and 25. Now throw him onto one of the dysfunctional franchises in today's league and he's like AD pre-Lakers, missing the playoffs or getting the boot early in the first round. He never would become the legend he still is today (ditto Russell).

So I think the era approach recognizes that certain guys were dominant within their time but that we can't realistically project that across all eras. On the flipside, I feel that some bigs who had lesser career arcs in the modern era, like KG, would probably have produced equivalent results had they been in Russell's shoes. One guy gets docked for playing in an era with more competition while another remains in the conversation for dominating a league with a handful of teams and almost now equivalent athletes.


I think it's reasonable to look at how a guy did against his peers and how he was regarded in his own era. Wilt, for example, was incredibly dominant against his peers. But without question, the stats from the early 60s are not equivalent to the stats from the 1980s or today.

And it's not surprising that all the 10 or 12 guys on the GOAT short list were regarded as great during their time. Knowing that Duncan and Kobe were the best of one decade, and Wilt and Russell the best of another decade, etc., etc. doesn't affect how I rank them.

I am not a big one for woulda-coulda scenarios. We can guess how all these guys might have done in different eras and on different teams. That can be a fun exercise for a lazy day. But when it comes to actually ranking them, all that matters to me is what they actually did accomplish in the circumstances they were actually in.

Does that make comparing across eras difficult? Sure. But so what? This is nothing more than another exercise you do for fun. No matter how we decide to order the guys on the GOAT list, none of their accomplishments change.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:26 pm    Post subject:

For me there are groupings of players. The primary criteria I use is how great the player was relative to their respective era, but with tiebreakers going to more modern players and with peak greatness given more weight than career longevity.

The top three in some order have to be Jordan, Kareem, and LeBron. Those are the only three players that have realistic arguments to be the greatest of all time due to a combination of unbelievable peak greatness, consistent playoff dominance, and overall career accomplishments. Each of them pretty much owned an entire decade. Since I value peak greatness the most, I have Jordan as my number one guy. For the last several years I had Kareem above LeBron, but after this championship run picking between them (the two guys who have had the greatest overall careers) is difficult. I guess I'll give the edge to LeBron because I'm fairly certain that by the time he retires he will have passed even Kareem in terms of just putting together the best career resume.

Then you have four players that were utterly dominant in their respective eras - Magic, Russell, Bird, and Wilt. They are a notch or two below the top three guys but they are absolute legends whose influence and success can't be denied. You could argue that any of them could join the top three to be on an NBA Mount Rushmore. Magic has to be ranked higher than Bird because he was ultimately just better than Bird over the course of their careers. Wilt vs. Russell is a little more difficult because Wilt put up absurd numbers while Russell won much more but then also had better teams. But the more I read about Wilt and his obsession with statistics at the cost of winning (refusing to play defense when he had four fouls because he had this thing where he never wanted to foul out; deciding he didn't want to score anymore so he could lead the league in assists) I find it hard to think that I wouldn't rather have had Russell.

The next four players are modern greats but they are difficult for me to rank because all of them have compelling arguments for being above the other three - Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and Hakeem. Each of them was good enough to be the best player on multiple championship teams. But none of them was ever the consensus best player in the world for more than a three year stretch. In terms of ranking them against each other, it's really a matter of preference between whether you value peak dominance (Shaq), consistent winning (Duncan), dynamism and longevity (Kobe), or two-way skilled greatness (Hakeem). I find it difficult to pick which one of these four should not make the top ten or even how to rank them against each other.

The final category of people who could make arguments to be in the top 10 include the trio of Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Moses Malone. All three had incredible careers and had memorable playing styles. Each won only one championship which puts them below the players above. But I would rank them above anyone else in that next tier of player (Havlicek, Durant, Dr. J, etc).

So my greatest of all time ranking right now is:
1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Kareem
___________
4) Magic
5) Russell
6) Bird
7) Wilt
___________
8) Shaq
9) Duncan
10) Kobe
11) Hakeem
___________
12) Oscar
13) West
14) Moses
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:51 pm    Post subject:

pokoy wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Is it too late to teach LeBron how to play baseball?

The Dodgers could use a guy like him.


Wouldn’t matter if he did well. Dave Roberts would pull him for Baez or Jansen when it mattered.


BWAHAHAHAHAHA...so damn true.

There are 3 simple Dodger rules and Dave broke 2 of them in game 4.

1. Never let Kershaw pitch into the 7th and if he's in the 6th it's a 1 base runner leash.

2. Kenley gets 4 batters. Period. End of Story. If he needs more than this to close the 9th then his cutter ain't cutting and you better have another arm warm.

3. NEVER EVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER put Baez in a high leverage situation. He's fine to start an inning, but he is trash from the stretch. Dude serves up batting practice under stress.

Dave might be the first manager to win a WS and deserve to be fired for that game 4 debacle. What manager let's a reliever give up TWO bombs in the same game?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:04 pm    Post subject:

I liked what wolf and activeverb posted regarding who dominated their era. That's the best way to look at it since you can't compare eras.

I made a mistake in my top 12 by neglecting TD...damn that was terrible, but no way in hell is he better than Kobe on any list imo.

1. Cap - somehow he's underrated
2. MJ - wish he had better comp than Ewing, Stockton-Malone, GP
3. Bron - Probably will be 1 when it's all done
4. Kobe - Gave the game everything
5. Magic - Never seen a player bring more joy to the world with an assist
6. Shaq - In a draft of all players in their prime Shaq is the #1 pick
7. Wilt - Underappreciated and better than Russell even though his teams weren't
8. Russell - Winner
9. Duncan - Such a damn good player. Better person.
10. Bird - Tough ass hick from French Lick. Greatest big game shooter until Steph.
11. Steph - Greatest shooter in NBA history.
12. Dream - Footwork of a guard...oh how much I would have loved to see him play MJ for it all.

This is my top 12.

Honorable mention - Wade, KD, West, Oscar, Mikan, Pippen, Big Game, Cousey, KG, Isiah, Dirk

Championships matter...makes Barkley, Stockton, Malone, McGrady lower than they could have been. Wish T-Mac had gotten one...but that he didn't makes what Kobe did that much more impressive to me.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:18 pm    Post subject:

CervantesRises wrote:
pokoy wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Is it too late to teach LeBron how to play baseball?

The Dodgers could use a guy like him.


Wouldn’t matter if he did well. Dave Roberts would pull him for Baez or Jansen when it mattered.


BWAHAHAHAHAHA...so damn true.

There are 3 simple Dodger rules and Dave broke 2 of them in game 4.

1. Never let Kershaw pitch into the 7th and if he's in the 6th it's a 1 base runner leash.

2. Kenley gets 4 batters. Period. End of Story. If he needs more than this to close the 9th then his cutter ain't cutting and you better have another arm warm.

3. NEVER EVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER put Baez in a high leverage situation. He's fine to start an inning, but he is trash from the stretch. Dude serves up batting practice under stress.

Dave might be the first manager to win a WS and deserve to be fired for that game 4 debacle. What manager let's a reliever give up TWO bombs in the same game?


If the Dodgers manage to pull this off it will be in spite, not because, of Roberts. I’m definitely not as confident as I was with the Lakers going into game 6 vs the Heat. Dodgers’ game 6 just seems like it has the potential to be another Dave Roberts overmanaged game.

Glad Kersh had a good game tonight (at least Roberts has finally figured out rule 1 it seems), and I am pissed we aren’t celebrating a WS trophy already.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:08 pm    Post subject:

Danny Green, on the REAL ONES podcast, joked that Lebron would take the first month off if the league started in December. Get ready to see that headline everywhere.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:54 pm    Post subject:

I hate to have Kobe so low, as he was the sole guy that got me into loving basketball, but I just can't put him above the likes of Duncan or Shaq, especially considering he wasn't quite on the same level as Diesel during the first couple of championship years (although he was very close).

Mine is:
1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Kareem
4) Magic
5) Wilt
6) Bird
7) Russell
8) Shaq
9) Duncan
10) Kobe
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:17 pm    Post subject:

PenG_ wrote:
Danny Green, on the REAL ONES podcast, joked that Lebron would take the first month off if the league started in December. Get ready to see that headline everywhere.


RealGM already has a thread on it and they think Green was being serious...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:33 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
PenG_ wrote:
Danny Green, on the REAL ONES podcast, joked that Lebron would take the first month off if the league started in December. Get ready to see that headline everywhere.


RealGM already has a thread on it and they think Green was being serious...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plhQmB4EyEA
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:40 pm    Post subject:

LandsbergerRules wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
PenG_ wrote:
Danny Green, on the REAL ONES podcast, joked that Lebron would take the first month off if the league started in December. Get ready to see that headline everywhere.


RealGM already has a thread on it and they think Green was being serious...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plhQmB4EyEA


He is clearly laughing while saying it and said it straight up that he’s just guessing, there is nothing to see here he is just respecting the vets on the team.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:53 pm    Post subject:

alleyoop wrote:
I hate to have Kobe so low, as he was the sole guy that got me into loving basketball, but I just can't put him above the likes of Duncan or Shaq, especially considering he wasn't quite on the same level as Diesel during the first couple of championship years (although he was very close).

Mine is:
1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Kareem
4) Magic
5) Wilt
6) Bird
7) Russell
8) Shaq
9) Duncan
10) Kobe

What did Duncan, Shaq, and Bird do to deserve a higher ranking on your list than Kobe?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:03 pm    Post subject:

alleyoop wrote:
I hate to have Kobe so low, as he was the sole guy that got me into loving basketball, but I just can't put him above the likes of Duncan or Shaq, especially considering he wasn't quite on the same level as Diesel during the first couple of championship years (although he was very close).

Mine is:
1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Kareem
4) Magic
5) Wilt
6) Bird
7) Russell
8) Shaq
9) Duncan
10) Kobe


It's crazy 6 are Lakers.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:13 pm    Post subject:

Teenage Bron being interviewed by (I think) a young Windhorst lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W3urMpdoew
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:54 pm    Post subject:

LandsbergerRules wrote:
Teenage Bron being interviewed by (I think) a young Windhorst lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W3urMpdoew


I remember all the hype surrounding that kid back then. Probably the most hype up high schooler ever. It's ridiculous how he surpassed all that with all that pressure and more. They said he is not mentally tough. You can see how advance his basketball IQ at that age.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:19 am    Post subject:

LBJ is smart.

After winning a ring, possibly 1-2 more with the Lakers, he will now have a sizeable contingent of the Lakers fanbase that will support him along with his usual LBJ fanbase. Not that it matters much, but having Lakers fan help tilt the scale a bit on the silly "GOAT" arguments could help.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:48 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
LBJ is smart.

After winning a ring, possibly 1-2 more with the Lakers, he will now have a sizeable contingent of the Lakers fanbase that will support him along with his usual LBJ fanbase. Not that it matters much, but having Lakers fan help tilt the scale a bit on the silly "GOAT" arguments could help.


Notice how he reps the Dodgers. LeBusiness.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:52 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
LBJ is smart.

After winning a ring, possibly 1-2 more with the Lakers, he will now have a sizeable contingent of the Lakers fanbase that will support him along with his usual LBJ fanbase. Not that it matters much, but having Lakers fan help tilt the scale a bit on the silly "GOAT" arguments could help.


Notice how he reps the Dodgers. LeBusiness.


And the Browns.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:04 pm    Post subject:

Any fans of Lebron and Maverick Carter’s talk show on HBO , “The Shop”?
Got a good one this Friday. 44th President Barack Obama will be on 🇺🇸🏆🤩

Probably the only thing I watch on tv besides Lakers basketball, Backstage Lakers, and Access Sportsnet 🤣💛💜💛💜

Lebron ,Maverick Carter, and Barack Obama, THE SHOP
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:49 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
LBJ is smart.

After winning a ring, possibly 1-2 more with the Lakers, he will now have a sizeable contingent of the Lakers fanbase that will support him along with his usual LBJ fanbase. Not that it matters much, but having Lakers fan help tilt the scale a bit on the silly "GOAT" arguments could help.


Notice how he reps the Dodgers. LeBusiness.

Lebron was historically a Yankees fan.
Before he was drafted, he was quoted as saying he was a Yankees fan. He wore a Yankees hat to a Cleveland vs. Yankees playoff game (in Cleveland, no less) about 10 or so years ago. And he was quoted in 2016 saying he was a Yankee fan
Nice of him to support the local team though, now that he's in LA
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:17 pm    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
LBJ is smart.

After winning a ring, possibly 1-2 more with the Lakers, he will now have a sizeable contingent of the Lakers fanbase that will support him along with his usual LBJ fanbase. Not that it matters much, but having Lakers fan help tilt the scale a bit on the silly "GOAT" arguments could help.


Notice how he reps the Dodgers. LeBusiness.

Lebron was historically a Yankees fan.
Before he was drafted, he was quoted as saying he was a Yankees fan. He wore a Yankees hat to a Cleveland vs. Yankees playoff game (in Cleveland, no less) about 10 or so years ago. And he was quoted in 2016 saying he was a Yankee fan
Nice of him to support the local team though, now that he's in LA


He really don’t care about baseball it’s just the Dodgers showed a lot of love to Him and the Lakers all season especially after Kobe passed. I remember Cody Bellinger dressed up as Lebron last Halloween

Lebron’s Fully invested in the City of Angels. He’s knows this is were he’ll continue his business after basketball.

Quote:
“I’d love to retire a Laker if you’ll have me , Lakers Nation...” - Lebron’s IG Live in April.



It’s great to be a Lakers fan always 🙏🙏🙏🏀💜🏀💛🏀🏆🏀🏆🏀
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:54 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
LBJ is smart.

After winning a ring, possibly 1-2 more with the Lakers, he will now have a sizeable contingent of the Lakers fanbase that will support him along with his usual LBJ fanbase. Not that it matters much, but having Lakers fan help tilt the scale a bit on the silly "GOAT" arguments could help.


He needs one more to be honest. That's why, I think someone said he told AD they "have a lot more work to do". One means he's been accepted, but he needs 2 I think.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:49 am    Post subject:

Cyberfreak444 wrote:


So my greatest of all time ranking right now is:
1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Kareem
___________
4) Magic
5) Russell
6) Bird
7) Wilt
___________
8) Shaq
9) Duncan
10) Kobe
11) Hakeem
___________
12) Oscar
13) West
14) Moses


This is fairly similar to my grouping. I look at guys more in tiers, than any exact numerical order, and the placement within the tier can shift based on my mood.

I would out Magic in the first tier.

I'd add Durant, Curry and Dr. J to the last tier
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:59 am    Post subject:

I'm biased toward the all-time greats with the skills to score from all levels/handle the ball/run the offense so I have guys like MJ, Kobe, Magic, and Bron above all the great centers on the very top of my list.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:19 am    Post subject:

Lonzo-Lite wrote:
Don’t see why Larry Bird is so high up on these lists.

IMHO, Kobe has already surpassed Bird, not just in rings, but also stats and accomplishments.


Same. Only thing Bird has over Kobe was ROY and 2 more MVPs, but Kobe has 2 more Rings and more accomplishments than Bird by a mile! From All-Star selections to All-NBA, All-Defensive, everything by a mile.

Kobe > Bird
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:20 am    Post subject:

LandsbergerRules wrote:
I'm biased toward the all-time greats with the skills to score from all levels/handle the ball/run the offense so I have guys like MJ, Kobe, Magic, and Bron above all the great centers on the very top of my list.


There's no right or wrong.

My criteria is more broad -- impact and accomplishments.

Until the current era, great centers were more important because they were the anchor of the defense and offense.

Even in the 2000s, I don't really see Shaq's and Duncan's overall career accomplishments and impact as significantly different than Kobe's. I put up them as an equivalent trio.

I find the ranking of those three guys is usually about who the ranker is/isn't a fan of and what style of play the ranker enjoys rather than any objective criteria.
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