We are rebuilding and some of you just cannot take it!(long)
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ericp6387
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:20 pm    Post subject: We are rebuilding and some of you just cannot take it!(long)

The good news is that we are not going to be worse, at least in the next six seasons, than we are at this time. Think about it, after losses we are decimating guys like Parker and Odom on these boards, but we will still probably win 43 games this year. God, we are spoiled! Anyways, this plan of 2007 is not new to the Lakers. Here is the key to being a good GM in basketball: patience, intelligence, and knowing when to make a move and when not to make a move, particularly if that move hurts the plan. Obvioulsly, talent evaluation is the top priority, and Mitch still gets an incomplete at this time.

Antonio Daniels was not worth hurting our cap flexibility for next season. He is a mediocre PG who is already 31. We need to spend the next few seasons developing young players. Parker, Sasha, and I believe another first rounder (Miami's pick) will be spent on a guy like D.Brown. Between all of them, we should solve the PG thing by the start of 2007-2008. One of them should emerge as as a viable starter next to Kobe. Odom, Luke, Cook, Turiaf and Walton are fine players. Yes, Lamar is not a #2, possibly not even a #3 option, but he is unselfish, and the better we get around him, the more valuable his contributions will be. We all wanted him to be better, but at the least he is a top five player on a title team. Bynum's development will obviously be vital. If he becomes a top five center by his third or fourth year, which I think is his potential (maybe it is even more), along with Mihm, and your center position is in great shape.

So, we are missing two things: 1) the development of all these young players, particularly Bynum, and 2) one more all-star caliber player and a #2 scorer. Assuming Bynum turns into even a Mutombo (same offense and same defense), along with Turiaf and Lamar, we do not necessarily need a big guy with the free agent money. Since WE WILL cut Kwame before July of 2007, we should have about $14 million under the cap. Would Bosh be my first choice? Yes. But even with him would we have the outside shooting issue, particularly at the 3 (Lamar). R.Lewis has been debated on these boards, and I have fluctuated, but this guy looks a little better to me every day. He can shoot AND score. He has size, so when he and Lamar are on the floor with Bynum, you are by no means small, even if Lamar is not the truest PF. And, by the way, I can see Lamar in the Kukoc-sixth man role with Turiaf starting by that time. And Lamar is one of those team kind of guys.

The problem with Lamar and Smush and Mihm is that they currently have too much responsibility on this team! As Bynum and everyone develops, we will get better and better and should be a 55+ win team in 2007-2008, even with Lewis instead of Bosh. Whether we can win titles is questionable, but I think we would have a shot with this lineup:

PG-Smush, Sasha, D.Brown
SG-Kobe, Wafer
SF-R.Lewis, Walton
PF-Odom, Turiaf, Cook
C-Bynum, Mihm

Think: the Pistons will be two years older, and they are not exactly young. SA Spurs will also be older, and Duncan looks like he has worn down a bit. Nash and Shaq will be older, and their teams should decline. Our team would be young, as Kobe would be the old man at 29. Nice. So, let's just be patient with the next couple of years. Let's make the playoffs this year and try to win a series next year. Then, we really make our move. Kupchak was West's assistant for 14 years, so perhaps he knows what he is doing. Remember, West needed 12 years to get us back on top after Magic. Kupchak will need 6, and having Kobe cuts that in half. It is just not easy winning titles ladies and gentleman! But you can rest assured that we do have a plan to make that happen as quickly as possible, but not tomorrow.
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DaggerInTheHeart
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject:

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Mark_in_Tulsa
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:27 pm    Post subject:

Amen brother.

I'm tired of people pissing and moaning because Mitch won't make a trade that will get us to the 2nd round instead of just the first round.

Why would you want to sacrifice our future just to make us a slightly better team this year.

We are spoiled. We are use to winning every year. But we have got to realise when Snaq left town early, our team was not set for rebuilding. Snaq leaving threw everything off that we had going. Had we known Snaq would of been leaving us before that fiasco we would of been drafting differently and trading differently.

But we are rebuilding, and it will take time. Mitch is doing a good job believe it or not. Not great but good. People need to realise that there is no quick fix out there to fix us.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:37 pm    Post subject:

Let me give you the short end of it. We do not rebuild we re load. per jerry buss.. as far as being patient.. missing the playoffs is un acceptable. We are are on the edge of doing it 2 years straight!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:43 pm    Post subject:

rebirth wrote:
Let me give you the short end of it. We do not rebuild we re load. per jerry buss.. as far as being patient.. missing the playoffs is un acceptable. We are are on the edge of doing it 2 years straight!


thank you
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:52 pm    Post subject:

turbulent wrote:
rebirth wrote:
Let me give you the short end of it. We do not rebuild we re load. per jerry buss.. as far as being patient.. missing the playoffs is un acceptable. We are are on the edge of doing it 2 years straight!


thank you


That about sums it up.
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ericp6387
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject:

Last year we eliminated pretty much our whole roster and had a coaching change (followed by another coaching change mid-season), plus we were destroyed by injuries at season's end. The organization gets a break for last season. Plus, we needed one year in the lottery as far as I was concerned. I will be a bit disappointed if we do not make the playoffs this year, but I think we sneak in with about 43 wins (remember Phil's goal was only 45). Next year, we win 46 or 47 and maybe pull off a first round upset. Then, we really come on with the free agent and Bynum (as he keeps getting better and better). So, if we do not make the playoffs this year, it is not a tragedy. But it would be a bit disappointing.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject:

Laker_in_Tulsa wrote:
Amen brother.

I'm tired of people pissing and moaning because Mitch won't make a trade that will get us to the 2nd round instead of just the first round.

Why would you want to sacrifice our future just to make us a slightly better team this year.

We are spoiled. We are use to winning every year. But we have got to realise when Snaq left town early, our team was not set for rebuilding. Snaq leaving threw everything off that we had going. Had we known Snaq would of been leaving us before that fiasco we would of been drafting differently and trading differently.

But we are rebuilding, and it will take time. Mitch is doing a good job believe it or not. Not great but good. People need to realise that there is no quick fix out there to fix us.


Warriors got Baron Davis for virtually nothing. Artest was available. Lakers had a chance to retool very quickly and forget about the rebuild. If Lakers org did things right the the possible team could have been

Baron Davis-PG
Kobe Bryant-SG
Ron Artest-SF
Chris Mihm-Center
Kwame brown-PF

This is a contender- not just a retooled or rebuilt team.The Rebuilding process applies only to a team which doesn't have choices. Lakers passed the rebuilding process when they had a chance to get Davis and Artest.
The processes the Lakers are in right now is First Priority- "making up for big Front office mistakes" and Second Priority- "spinning" to cover up Front Office mistakes . or, more appropriately:

First Priority- "spinning" to cover up Front Office mistakes and [u]Second Priority[/u]-"making up for big Front office mistakes".
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:01 pm    Post subject:

I said this in another thread, but it bears repeating here: it is extremely, most extremely difficult to win another ring in 5 years or less after losing a major superstar. Fact of the matter is that this has been accomplished only once in the history of the NBA by a franchise other than the Celtics. Exactly once. Boys and girls, that's it. And that one franchise ain't the Lakers, it's the Spurs. Even the Celtics themselves only did it twice.

If it was that easy, it would have happened more often. The Lakers have a shot at it only because they have Kobe. Had they retained Shaq instead of Kobe, they would really have no chance at all. Sure they could have refused to extend Shaq and let him go for nothing this summer, but they would have been faced with rebuilding the team from the ground up with no superstars in the bag.

And yet we get these whiny butt lizards roaming the board and just whinging like there's no tomorrow about getting player X or player Y who just might get them into the 2nd round this year. And don't care if the team closes out its flexibility down the road just so the whingers can get some gratification NOW. It's all NOW, baby, feed me NOW! I can't wait, I have no patience. @#$& patience! I gotta have it!!!

I've been through the Dark Years of the 70's when Kareem, one of the top 3 centers ever, could not carry the team into the playoffs by himself his first year here. But Sharman built the team around him, it took a few years plus Magic, then they started winning titles. West learned from Sharman: he stripped down the team to get Shaq, then built the team back around him. Still took 5 seasons to get to the promised land. Now Mitch is rebuilding the team, but not around a great center, he's trying to do it around the best SG in the game today. And it's going to take him a few years. We are in year 2. We should be good to contend in year 4, 5 or 6. But so many posters have NO patience for that!!!!!!!!!!!

Mitch has said they could make a major trade if the right player comes along. So IMO, the acid test for breaking the 07 plan is this: can this player PUT the Lakers over the top: that is, can he get the team PAST the Spurs, Suns and the Pistons? If Mitch and the brain trust don't think he can't do that, then there's no point in breaking the plan for him just so we can go a little bit deeper in the playoffs this year... Antonio Daniels failed that test, Earl Watson failed that test, they felt Artest was not worth Odom (and I agree)... and so on. Is the team being picky? yes, and they should be. Nothing matters but the RING!!!


Last edited by jlkr42 on Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ericp6387
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:02 pm    Post subject:

Baron Davis. Now there is a winner! Are you kidding me. Guys like Davis and Francis are losers and will never be on this team. As for Artest, I was against trading Bynum for him. I definitely would have traded Odom for him, and I am not convinced we did not make that offer! Plus, even with Artest, we are still clearly below SA Spurs and Detroit this year and next. So, why not keep Odom and add on a Bosh or a Lewis and continue to develop the young players without championship aspirations for this year and next year. Timing is everything, and we need a few years to get everything together before making any title runs.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:06 pm    Post subject:

What fans seem to miss is the fact we have 3 young 7 footers still developing and improving. Trading any of them away for a quick fix like Artest would be stupid and roster suicide.

And for the people who say the Lakers don't rebuild and should never miss the playoffs, you guys are waaaaay too spoiled. It's something nice to say to other NBA fans, but to run a team that way?! Think about it, what's the end result that you want? a championship or making the playoffs year after year only to fizzle out because you have no size in the middle.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:08 pm    Post subject:

JLKR42,

You can argue that the Spurs did not really lose a superstar. Robinson was basically a second tier player when the Spurs won their first one. Elie, Avery, Elliot and the bench were really good. But, you are right in general. Remember, Robinson was on title team #2 also. By then, Parker and Ginobili were better. Between Bynum, R.Lewis, Odom, Parker and Turiaf, we need that to be our title supporting cast, with Phil as the coach. I think it is realistic. The big question as I see it is whether we should sign Lewis that offseason or continue to hold out for a potential big (KG). I say be ready to act after next season.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:18 pm    Post subject:

ericp6387 wrote:
Baron Davis. Now there is a winner! Are you kidding me. Guys like Davis and Francis are losers and will never be on this team. As for Artest, I was against trading Bynum for him. I definitely would have traded Odom for him, and I am not convinced we did not make that offer! Plus, even with Artest, we are still clearly below SA Spurs and Detroit this year and next. So, why not keep Odom and add on a Bosh or a Lewis and continue to develop the young players without championship aspirations for this year and next year. Timing is everything, and we need a few years to get everything together before making any title runs.


Baron Davis is a great player and would make any team a greater team. His main problem is that he is injury prone. That is too much of a risk for a team looking to be in the Championship.

Artest would have been great fit here but not for Odom or even Bynum.

Francis is too much of a glory hog and not what we need in a point guard.

As for the fact of wether we go first or second round means alot!! Its just how you play the game. Id rather go out losing to a team who clearly has a beat the forfieting the season to get a draft pick that still might not help us!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:25 pm    Post subject:

confucious say: man who call for calm one day spread panic another day.

:p
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject:

Why rebuild when your best player is the best in the league and is about to enter his prime?

We're not rebuilding, otherwise we wouldn't have resigned Kobe or we would have done a sign and trade. But since we did sign him we've got the main piece to a championship piece.

Now, we need to surround him, something Mitch has done a poor job with. It's long and complicated but I don't think it's fair on Kobe to START building around him when he's 30 (2008 plan).

You want the honest truth? I don't think Management knows which direction to go in at the moment and may wait until the end of this season to do anything, even if we miss the playoffs.

Mitch has never done a trade at the deadline, not even last year. I doubt he will this year.
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shaq suxs
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject:

rebirth wrote:
Let me give you the short end of it. We do not rebuild we re load. per jerry buss.. as far as being patient.. missing the playoffs is un acceptable. We are are on the edge of doing it 2 years straight!
right on bro. im not expecting a championship but playoffs is a must
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: We are rebuilding and some of you just cannot take it!(long)

ericp6387 wrote:
Since WE WILL cut Kwame before July of 2007, we should have about $14 million under the cap.


The Lakers subsequently guaranteed Kwame's third year after it was signed. We will not be under the cap with legitimate space until 2008.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:33 pm    Post subject:

I agree with you ericp6387. I plan many of my nights around the Lakers Schedule to watch them prove the critics wrong and get them back on top of the basketball world. I absolutely am in despair after every Laker loss even if they are not supposed to win, I cannot control my emotions.

I do believe it will be a couple years before the Lakers seriously contend for another title even as much as it hurts me to watch us lose to sub-par teams. I would not be any happier if we make a trade for someone that will only lead us to the 2nd Round of the Playoffs if we give up more than we have to. I find it funny how everyone wants Mitch to pull the trigger on a trade if we hear another organization saying they are shopping some players.

I hope the Lakers do improve their roster this year but at the same time not limit themselves with what they can do in the next couple of seasons. Until then I have to watch re-runs of my Lakers Dynasty DVD's to remember what it was like to celebrate in June.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:35 pm    Post subject:

jlkr42 wrote:
I said this in another thread, but it bears repeating here: it is extremely, most extremely difficult to win another ring in 5 years or less after losing a major superstar. Fact of the matter is that this has been accomplished only once in the history of the NBA by a franchise other than the Celtics. Exactly once. Boys and girls, that's it. And that one franchise ain't the Lakers, it's the Spurs. Even the Celtics themselves only did it twice.

If it was that easy, it would have happened more often. The Lakers have a shot at it only because they have Kobe. Had they retained Shaq instead of Kobe, they would really have no chance at all. Sure they could have refused to extend Shaq and let him go for nothing this summer, but they would have been faced with rebuilding the team from the ground up with no superstars in the bag.

And yet we get these whiny butt lizards roaming the board and just whinging like there's no tomorrow about getting player X or player Y who just might get them into the 2nd round this year. And don't care if the team closes out its flexibility down the road just so the whingers can get some gratification NOW. It's all NOW, baby, feed me NOW! I can't wait, I have no patience. @#$& patience! I gotta have it!!!

I've been through the Dark Years of the 70's when Kareem, one of the top 3 centers ever, could not carry the team into the playoffs by himself his first year here. But Sharman built the team around him, it took a few years plus Magic, then they started winning titles. West learned from Sharman: he stripped down the team to get Shaq, then built the team back around him. Still took 5 seasons to get to the promised land. Now Mitch is rebuilding the team, but not around a great center, he's trying to do it around the best SG in the game today. And it's going to take him a few years. We are in year 2. We should be good to contend in year 4, 5 or 6. But so many posters have NO patience for that!!!!!!!!!!!

Mitch has said they could make a major trade if the right player comes along. So IMO, the acid test for breaking the 07 plan is this: can this player PUT the Lakers over the top: that is, can he get the team PAST the Spurs, Suns and the Pistons? If Mitch and the brain trust don't think he can't do that, then there's no point in breaking the plan for him just so we can go a little bit deeper in the playoffs this year... Antonio Daniels failed that test, Earl Watson failed that test, they felt Artest was not worth Odom (and I agree)... and so on. Is the team being picky? yes, and they should be. Nothing matters but the RING!!!


No one expects us to win a championship. Many of us expect to make the playoffs, and last years early vaction was patience..Now playoffs are a must.. yet we are on the verge of missing out. UNACCEPTABLE!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:41 pm    Post subject:

I know.

But I still can't take it!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:42 pm    Post subject:

jlkr42 wrote:
I said this in another thread, but it bears repeating here: it is extremely, most extremely difficult to win another ring in 5 years or less after losing a major superstar. Fact of the matter is that this has been accomplished only once in the history of the NBA by a franchise other than the Celtics. Exactly once. Boys and girls, that's it. And that one franchise ain't the Lakers, it's the Spurs. Even the Celtics themselves only did it twice.

If it was that easy, it would have happened more often. The Lakers have a shot at it only because they have Kobe. Had they retained Shaq instead of Kobe, they would really have no chance at all. Sure they could have refused to extend Shaq and let him go for nothing this summer, but they would have been faced with rebuilding the team from the ground up with no superstars in the bag.

And yet we get these whiny butt lizards roaming the board and just whinging like there's no tomorrow about getting player X or player Y who just might get them into the 2nd round this year. And don't care if the team closes out its flexibility down the road just so the whingers can get some gratification NOW. It's all NOW, baby, feed me NOW! I can't wait, I have no patience. @#$& patience! I gotta have it!!!

I've been through the Dark Years of the 70's when Kareem, one of the top 3 centers ever, could not carry the team into the playoffs by himself his first year here. But Sharman built the team around him, it took a few years plus Magic, then they started winning titles. West learned from Sharman: he stripped down the team to get Shaq, then built the team back around him. Still took 5 seasons to get to the promised land. Now Mitch is rebuilding the team, but not around a great center, he's trying to do it around the best SG in the game today. And it's going to take him a few years. We are in year 2. We should be good to contend in year 4, 5 or 6. But so many posters have NO patience for that!!!!!!!!!!!

Mitch has said they could make a major trade if the right player comes along. So IMO, the acid test for breaking the 07 plan is this: can this player PUT the Lakers over the top: that is, can he get the team PAST the Spurs, Suns and the Pistons? If Mitch and the brain trust don't think he can't do that, then there's no point in breaking the plan for him just so we can go a little bit deeper in the playoffs this year... Antonio Daniels failed that test, Earl Watson failed that test, they felt Artest was not worth Odom (and I agree)... and so on. Is the team being picky? yes, and they should be. Nothing matters but the RING!!!


Superb post. You've risen head and shoulders above all the garbage that gets posted here. Congratulations.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:49 pm    Post subject:

to the original poster. boy, mitch kupchak has really fooled you. we keep the best player in the league and trade the best center in the NBA. and that's your definition of rebuilding? this isn't the '98 bulls breakup. laker managment fully expected to be better then 34-48 and 25-25 back in the summer of '04. but seeing those records, i can see how one may come to believe that the lakers are "rebuilding."
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:57 pm    Post subject:

lakersfan4life69 wrote:
to the original poster. boy, mitch kupchak has really fooled you. we keep the best player in the league and trade the best center in the NBA. and that's your definition of rebuilding? this isn't the '98 bulls breakup. laker managment fully expected to be better then 34-48 and 25-25 back in the summer of '04. but seeing those records, i can see how one may come to believe that the lakers are "rebuilding."


No one said that was the definition of rebuilding.

Shaq wanted to leave. It wasn't like the brass thought, "Hey lets trade Shaq and start from scratch". Shaq wanted to leave, and he did. HE got traded for something that wasn't equivalent. There are no trades out there to get something for equal value.

But now seeing how shaq has become I think we came out ahead on the deal. Not saying it was the best deal out there, but we did come out ahead now.

But anyways, we are rebuilding. Last year we were better than our record. But our 2 best players were gone for over a 1/4 of the year. How can you not call this rebuilding.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:03 pm    Post subject:

Lakersfanforlife,

Nobody has fooled me. I am saying that Mitch is still to be determined. Sasha and Smush have some talent, Turiaf and Bynum were picks I cannot argue with. Cook, Walton, Mihm are nice players and were gotten for good prices. We did the best we could for Shaq, as that situation was about as difficult as it gets. The development of these players, plus this year's draft is key. We will take another PG in this draft no doubt. But two things: 1) Bynum, 2) the ability to get a very good free agent, will be the biggest things Kupchak will be defined by. And both will take a few years. As one of the other posters pointed it, you do not trade superstars and recover overnight, even if you have another one. It takes time. As Buss said earlier in the year, give us 2-3 years. I think this organization deserves that much for what they have given us as fans, don't you?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject:

The impatient "We Gotta Have It Now" crowd reminds me a lot of many of the friends I graduated from college with. Right after graduation many of them rushed out and purchased BMW's, Lexus and Mercedes and use to tease me mercilessly because I was still driving my 7 year old Mustang and refused to leverage myself with a huge car payment my first year out of school. I kept telling them that I'd buy a BMW when I could actually afford one.

Fast forward three years and I was still driving that crappy now 10 year old mustang, but was finally ready to purchase that first BMW. Because I resisted the urge to take on that huge car payment I'd been able to sock away the money to go out and purchase it for cash at a time all those old buddies were trading in their nice cars because they'd just been laid off in the dot com crash and were in debt over their heads. Not many of them have recovered from what was some extrememly foolish decision making and most are, and will be leveraged, well into their grey haired years.

Sports franchises mirror this scenario precisely. Losing franchises are constantly commiting themselves to short term fixes that have a lot of initial "Hoorah" factor to them, but end up being cripling over the longhaul. The Lakers are one of the few franchises that's been able to stay on top in the world of sports because they intelligently resist the urge to make poor short term decisions. The Lakers wisely invest in the longer term, and as a result are able to stay at or near the top with much greater consistency.

Luckily for the fans without the patience to appreciate the process the Lakers are engaged in - there is a team with the short term "Gotta Have it Now" mentality that shares the same building. The Clippers love to invest in the short term and put band-aids on problems annually. Heck if you cheer for the Clippers you can be pretty sure to get you "Trade" fix every year since trading is a favourite past-time of that franchise. And every now an again they make it to the second round of the playoffs!!! Me. Well I'll just remain a patient Lakers fan because I don't enjoy the final outcome of such misguided short term decision making. I'd rather actually experience a championship once every 4 years on average, than go through every season trying to get to the second round of the playoffs.
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I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail.
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