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LandsbergerRules
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 Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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LOL at ol' "Nostradamus" Blevins.
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pio2u
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanquish wrote: |
3) Not actually knowing the salary cap rules inside and out. There was a post in LG sometime back, which stated that Mitch agreed to Moz/Deng because he thought there was still an amnesty provision in the current CBA. For a GM, to not know the CBA like the back of his hand, is frankly not good. |
LG posts have more factual errors than a Donald Trump tweet, so be careful using them as an information source 
Here's the actual story: Deng and Moz were signed in the summer before the 2016-17 season. Mitch expected that the next CBA, which wasn't finalized until December 2016, would have an amnesty provision, as the previous CBA had one. But to a lot of people's surprise, it didn't. Some people have speculated that this expectation was part of the reason he gave those two big contracts, but I don't believe Mitch himself has ever said that. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanquish wrote: |
3) Not actually knowing the salary cap rules inside and out. There was a post in LG sometime back, which stated that Mitch agreed to Moz/Deng because he thought there was still an amnesty provision in the current CBA. For a GM, to not know the CBA like the back of his hand, is frankly not good. |
LG posts have more factual errors than a Donald Trump tweet, so be careful using them as an information source
Here's the actual story: Deng and Moz were signed in the summer before the 2016-17 season. Mitch expected that the next CBA, which wasn't finalized until December 2016, would have an amnesty provision, as the previous CBA had one. But to a lot of people's surprise, it didn't. Some people have speculated that this expectation was part of the reason he gave those two big contracts, but I don't believe Mitch himself has ever said that. |
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Vanquish
Star Player
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Vanquish wrote: |
3) Not actually knowing the salary cap rules inside and out. There was a post in LG sometime back, which stated that Mitch agreed to Moz/Deng because he thought there was still an amnesty provision in the current CBA. For a GM, to not know the CBA like the back of his hand, is frankly not good. |
LG posts have more factual errors than a Donald Trump tweet, so be careful using them as an information source
Here's the actual story: Deng and Moz were signed in the summer before the 2016-17 season. Mitch expected that the next CBA, which wasn't finalized until December 2016, would have an amnesty provision, as the previous CBA had one. But to a lot of people's surprise, it didn't. Some people have speculated that this expectation was part of the reason he gave those two big contracts, but I don't believe Mitch himself has ever said that. |
Cool, I take point 3 back then. 
In all fairness to LG, the accuracy of news here is actually pretty good considering its a message board. Credit to all the posters, that if something is posted which is not true (like my point 3), it is usually corrected within a few pages.
That's why I find LG is sometimes better than even the professional news sources like ESPN.
Last edited by Vanquish on Thu May 24, 2018 7:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Travis Bickle
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Joined: 31 Jul 2001
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: |
...Here's the actual story: Deng and Moz were signed in the summer before the 2016-17 season. Mitch expected that the next CBA, which wasn't finalized until December 2016, would have an amnesty provision, as the previous CBA had one. But to a lot of people's surprise, it didn't. Some people have speculated that this expectation was part of the reason he gave those two big contracts, but I don't believe Mitch himself has ever said that. |
That makes it even worse. You make decisions based on know facts not speculations.
I don't see any problems with Mitch/Jim missing out on big time FA. They made fair offers and those guys choose not to take it. Just don't throw money at 30+ year old role players. |
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cyborgspider
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: |
Here's the actual story: Deng and Moz were signed in the summer before the 2016-17 season. Mitch expected that the next CBA, which wasn't finalized until December 2016, would have an amnesty provision, as the previous CBA had one. But to a lot of people's surprise, it didn't. Some people have speculated that this expectation was part of the reason he gave those two big contracts, but I don't believe Mitch himself has ever said that. |
https://twitter.com/ericpincus/status/927724275452166144
Straight from the emplay's mouth
"Yes, Lakers expected there to be amnesty - Mitch asked me specifically why there was no amnesty in the new deal" |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Travis Bickle wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
...Here's the actual story: Deng and Moz were signed in the summer before the 2016-17 season. Mitch expected that the next CBA, which wasn't finalized until December 2016, would have an amnesty provision, as the previous CBA had one. But to a lot of people's surprise, it didn't. Some people have speculated that this expectation was part of the reason he gave those two big contracts, but I don't believe Mitch himself has ever said that. |
That makes it even worse. You make decisions based on know facts not speculations.
I don't see any problems with Mitch/Jim missing out on big time FA. They made fair offers and those guys choose not to take it. Just don't throw money at 30+ year old role players. |
Again, all we know is that Mitch expected the CBA to include an amnesty provision. We don't know if the expectation influenced his decision. That is the part that is speculation. |
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Vanquish
Star Player
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Travis Bickle wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
...Here's the actual story: Deng and Moz were signed in the summer before the 2016-17 season. Mitch expected that the next CBA, which wasn't finalized until December 2016, would have an amnesty provision, as the previous CBA had one. But to a lot of people's surprise, it didn't. Some people have speculated that this expectation was part of the reason he gave those two big contracts, but I don't believe Mitch himself has ever said that. |
That makes it even worse. You make decisions based on know facts not speculations.
I don't see any problems with Mitch/Jim missing out on big time FA. They made fair offers and those guys choose not to take it. Just don't throw money at 30+ year old role players. |
The one difference between Mitch/Jim and the current recruitment exercise is that I remember reading our entire pitch to Lemarcus Aldridge was basically we're the lakers and have 16 championships.
We didn't have an analytics guy at the time and the reports I read seem to indicate that wasn't much talk on the basketball aspects (probably because our team sucked then) if he were to join.
I expect the pitches to Lebron and PG to focus heavily on the basketball aspects, and especially on our young core. A lot of credit has to go to the current FO for drafting well so that we can make that pitch. Getting Ball, and especially Kuzma, dramatically strengthens our case.
Last edited by Vanquish on Thu May 24, 2018 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanquish wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Vanquish wrote: |
3) Not actually knowing the salary cap rules inside and out. There was a post in LG sometime back, which stated that Mitch agreed to Moz/Deng because he thought there was still an amnesty provision in the current CBA. For a GM, to not know the CBA like the back of his hand, is frankly not good. |
LG posts have more factual errors than a Donald Trump tweet, so be careful using them as an information source
Here's the actual story: Deng and Moz were signed in the summer before the 2016-17 season. Mitch expected that the next CBA, which wasn't finalized until December 2016, would have an amnesty provision, as the previous CBA had one. But to a lot of people's surprise, it didn't. Some people have speculated that this expectation was part of the reason he gave those two big contracts, but I don't believe Mitch himself has ever said that. |
Cool, I take point 3 back then.
In all fairness to LG, the accuracy of news here is actually pretty good considering its a message board. Credit to all the posters, that if something is posted which is not true (like my point 3), it is usually corrected within a few pages.
That's why I find LG is sometimes better than even the professional news sources like ESPN. |
I wouldn't go that far. Like any message board, this place is filled with "facts" that people mis-remember, assume or just plain make up. It's pretty common for people to overstate the facts or to misrepresent the facts in an attempt to have better support for their opinion. And that doesn't even include the people who seem genuinely confused about the difference between a fact or an opinion, or who assume that any opinion they hold is a fact because they believe it so much. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanquish wrote: |
The one difference between Mitch/Jim and the current recruitment exercise is that I remember reading our entire pitch to Lemarcus Aldridge was basically we're the lakers and have 16 championships.
We didn't have an analytics guy at the time and the reports I read seem to indicate that wasn't much talk on the basketball aspects (probably because our team sucked then) if he were to join. . |
The reality is we didn't have much to pitch beyond our legacy and branding opportunity at that point. We didn't talk about basketball, because we couldn't compete with the other suitors based on basketball talent.
According to the LA Times: The Lakers contended that their analytics pitch would have been stronger if they had a better roster last season and privately expressed envy that Houston's presentation could be bolstered by projections and on-court analysis of a team that already had James Harden and Howard.
Analytics is not magic; it's just math. |
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Relying on amnesty just shows how bad those moves were. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | Relying on amnesty just shows how bad those moves were. |
It seems like Mitch anticipated league owners being smarter than they were with the new CBA. It won't just be the ugly 2016 contracts, the supermax without an amnesty provision is going to cripple so many teams around the league. Chris Paul should go down as an NBPA legend for all the money he's going to help star players earn over the course of this CBA. |
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Judah
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | Relying on amnesty just shows how bad those moves were. |
Right. It really doesn't make any sense. You rationalize paying not one, but two guys way above their market by telling yourself that if it doesn't pan out, you'll just amnesty one of them?
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“Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there."
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | Relying on amnesty just shows how bad those moves were. |
My sense is a lot of the reasons for the bad moves was the dysfunctional Jim-Jeanie relationship.
Jim made up that ridiculous timeline, and then backed away from it, but Jeanie made a big deal of keeping him to it. That put Jim in the position of throwing the dice on a stupid move, because he knew he'd still be fired if he made no deal.
The only explanation for the ridiculous contracts is the front office being put in a desperate situation where they felt they needed to do a hail mary. I sure don't mind Jim being gone, but I don't put the blame totally on him: The whole organization was screwed up from top to bottom, and Jeanie's stupid act ("I don't know what's going on") while throwing people under the bus didn't help.
All the Buss kids are a bunch of clowns. |
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Vanquish
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Vanquish wrote: |
The one difference between Mitch/Jim and the current recruitment exercise is that I remember reading our entire pitch to Lemarcus Aldridge was basically we're the lakers and have 16 championships.
We didn't have an analytics guy at the time and the reports I read seem to indicate that wasn't much talk on the basketball aspects (probably because our team sucked then) if he were to join. . |
The reality is we didn't have much to pitch beyond our legacy and branding opportunity at that point. We didn't talk about basketball, because we couldn't compete with the other suitors based on basketball talent.
According to the LA Times: The Lakers contended that their analytics pitch would have been stronger if they had a better roster last season and privately expressed envy that Houston's presentation could be bolstered by projections and on-court analysis of a team that already had James Harden and Howard.
Analytics is not magic; it's just math. |
Exactly, which is what we have now with Ball, Ingram, Kuzma and Hart. Also 3 of that enticing young core were drafted just last year, credit to the current FO. All of them are on cheap contracts and there's every opportunity to upgrade further with another max signing.
Even if we strike out, our pitch this summer is a lot stronger than it was in 2016. I am kind of hopeful, we'll get at least one free agent. |
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Vanquish
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | Relying on amnesty just shows how bad those moves were. |
My sense is a lot of the reasons for the bad moves was the dysfunctional Jim-Jeanie relationship.
Jim made up that ridiculous timeline, and then backed away from it, but Jeanie made a big deal of keeping him to it. That put Jim in the position of throwing the dice on a stupid move, because he knew he'd still be fired if he made no deal.
The only explanation for the ridiculous contracts is the front office being put in a desperate situation where they felt they needed to do a hail mary. I sure don't mind Jim being gone, but I don't put the blame totally on him: The whole organization was screwed up from top to bottom, and Jeanie's stupid act ("I don't know what's going on") while throwing people under the bus didn't help.
All the Buss kids are a bunch of clowns. |
Actually, I would blame the previous regime for that one too. They have zero idea how to do PR.
As powerful as Jeanie is, she won't move against the fan base. In fact, I think she made the move she did, because she felt she had the fanbase on her side.
Look at the current regime. When our FA prospects for this summer started looking not so great, especially with cousins going down, they subtly changed the narrative from 2 max 2018 to Maxes in either 2018 or 2019. This was AFTER magic proclaimed to the entire universe that it was 2 max or bust in the summer of 2018. While, I have no sauces, I would chalk this, to Rob being a sports agent for so long. He had to know how to change the narrative in order to 'sell' his clients to nba teams.
They rewrote the narrative as the season progressed, and honestly Jim and Mitch should have done that when it became apparent that their timeline wasn't going to work. Instead, the previous regime made a panic move which ended up costing us till this day.
Last edited by Vanquish on Thu May 24, 2018 8:48 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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chantruong
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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PG a top 15 player in the league? Not news to me |
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riqshaw
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trablos
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| Vanquish wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | Relying on amnesty just shows how bad those moves were. |
My sense is a lot of the reasons for the bad moves was the dysfunctional Jim-Jeanie relationship.
Jim made up that ridiculous timeline, and then backed away from it, but Jeanie made a big deal of keeping him to it. That put Jim in the position of throwing the dice on a stupid move, because he knew he'd still be fired if he made no deal.
The only explanation for the ridiculous contracts is the front office being put in a desperate situation where they felt they needed to do a hail mary. I sure don't mind Jim being gone, but I don't put the blame totally on him: The whole organization was screwed up from top to bottom, and Jeanie's stupid act ("I don't know what's going on") while throwing people under the bus didn't help.
All the Buss kids are a bunch of clowns. |
Actually, I would blame the previous regime for that one too. They have zero idea how to do PR.
As powerful as Jeanie is, she won't move against the fan base. In fact, I think she made the move she did, because she felt she had the fanbase on her side.
Look at the current regime. When our FA prospects for this summer started looking not so great, especially with cousins going down, they subtly changed the narrative from 2 max 2018 to Maxes in either 2018 or 2019. This was AFTER magic proclaimed to the entire universe that it was 2 max or bust in the summer of 2018. While, I have no sauces, I would chalk this, to Rob being a sports agent for so long. He had to know how to change the narrative in order to 'sell' his clients to nba teams.
They rewrote the narrative as the season progressed, and honestly Jim and Mitch should have done that when it became apparent that their timeline wasn't going to work. Instead, the previous regime made a panic move which ended up costing us till this day. |
Honestly the FA pitch isn't what's most important to me. After 4 brutal years, we had a stench on this franchise we've never experienced. Jeannie brought in Magic to change the culture and instill a winning mentality and get rid of everyone who doesn't buy into the concept. We are now a team full of high character, hard working guys built around defense and ball movement. The direction of the team is night and day compared to the summer of MozDeng. |
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babyskyhook
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Vanquish wrote: |
3) Not actually knowing the salary cap rules inside and out. There was a post in LG sometime back, which stated that Mitch agreed to Moz/Deng because he thought there was still an amnesty provision in the current CBA. For a GM, to not know the CBA like the back of his hand, is frankly not good. |
LG posts have more factual errors than a Donald Trump tweet, so be careful using them as an information source
Here's the actual story: Deng and Moz were signed in the summer before the 2016-17 season. Mitch expected that the next CBA, which wasn't finalized until December 2016, would have an amnesty provision, as the previous CBA had one. But to a lot of people's surprise, it didn't. Some people have speculated that this expectation was part of the reason he gave those two big contracts, but I don't believe Mitch himself has ever said that. |
The fact that they expected the new CBA would have an amnesty clause was FO malpractice. NBA reporters with sources at the league office (like Zach Lowe) were saying a year ahead of time that there would be no amnesty clause in the new CBA because the cap was going to rise so much that there would be no need for it.
The fact that Zach Lowe (and other reporters) knew more about the upcoming CBA than one of the owners and the GM of the most profitable franchise in the league tells you everything to know about the Jim and Mitch era. It was absolutely unforgivable that they were making strategic decisions about the future of the franchise without having information that was easily obtainable.
Mitch was out of touch and behind the times, while Jim was insular and incompetent- their big picture strategy was a disaster time and time again. |
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UKUGA
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Posts: 703
Location: 22033
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| cyborgspider wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
Here's the actual story: Deng and Moz were signed in the summer before the 2016-17 season. Mitch expected that the next CBA, which wasn't finalized until December 2016, would have an amnesty provision, as the previous CBA had one. But to a lot of people's surprise, it didn't. Some people have speculated that this expectation was part of the reason he gave those two big contracts, but I don't believe Mitch himself has ever said that. |
https://twitter.com/ericpincus/status/927724275452166144
Straight from the emplay's mouth
"Yes, Lakers expected there to be amnesty - Mitch asked me specifically why there was no amnesty in the new deal" |
It's dumb to give a contract that you think you may want to amnesty - especially if you don't know that there is going to be a provision in the CBA.
TBH - that is worth getting fired over. |
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UKUGA
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| babyskyhook wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Vanquish wrote: |
3) Not actually knowing the salary cap rules inside and out. There was a post in LG sometime back, which stated that Mitch agreed to Moz/Deng because he thought there was still an amnesty provision in the current CBA. For a GM, to not know the CBA like the back of his hand, is frankly not good. |
LG posts have more factual errors than a Donald Trump tweet, so be careful using them as an information source
Here's the actual story: Deng and Moz were signed in the summer before the 2016-17 season. Mitch expected that the next CBA, which wasn't finalized until December 2016, would have an amnesty provision, as the previous CBA had one. But to a lot of people's surprise, it didn't. Some people have speculated that this expectation was part of the reason he gave those two big contracts, but I don't believe Mitch himself has ever said that. |
The fact that they expected the new CBA would have an amnesty clause was FO malpractice. NBA reporters with sources at the league office (like Zach Lowe) were saying a year ahead of time that there would be no amnesty clause in the new CBA because the cap was going to rise so much that there would be no need for it.
The fact that Zach Lowe (and other reporters) knew more about the upcoming CBA than one of the owners and the GM of the most profitable franchise in the league tells you everything to know about the Jim and Mitch era. It was absolutely unforgivable that they were making strategic decisions about the future of the franchise without having information that was easily obtainable.
Mitch was out of touch and behind the times, while Jim was insular and incompetent- their big picture strategy was a disaster time and time again. |
Yes. |
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UKUGA
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Vanquish wrote: |
The one difference between Mitch/Jim and the current recruitment exercise is that I remember reading our entire pitch to Lemarcus Aldridge was basically we're the lakers and have 16 championships.
We didn't have an analytics guy at the time and the reports I read seem to indicate that wasn't much talk on the basketball aspects (probably because our team sucked then) if he were to join. . |
The reality is we didn't have much to pitch beyond our legacy and branding opportunity at that point. We didn't talk about basketball, because we couldn't compete with the other suitors based on basketball talent.
According to the LA Times: The Lakers contended that their analytics pitch would have been stronger if they had a better roster last season and privately expressed envy that Houston's presentation could be bolstered by projections and on-court analysis of a team that already had James Harden and Howard.
Analytics is not magic; it's just math. |
I thought the same thing at the time:
"Hey LMA, here's what you are going to look like playing alongside some scrubs, rookies, and other guys we just grabbed on one-year deals."
It doesn't work. |
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AirKobe8
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Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 8586
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| UKUGA wrote: | | babyskyhook wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Vanquish wrote: |
3) Not actually knowing the salary cap rules inside and out. There was a post in LG sometime back, which stated that Mitch agreed to Moz/Deng because he thought there was still an amnesty provision in the current CBA. For a GM, to not know the CBA like the back of his hand, is frankly not good. |
LG posts have more factual errors than a Donald Trump tweet, so be careful using them as an information source
Here's the actual story: Deng and Moz were signed in the summer before the 2016-17 season. Mitch expected that the next CBA, which wasn't finalized until December 2016, would have an amnesty provision, as the previous CBA had one. But to a lot of people's surprise, it didn't. Some people have speculated that this expectation was part of the reason he gave those two big contracts, but I don't believe Mitch himself has ever said that. |
The fact that they expected the new CBA would have an amnesty clause was FO malpractice. NBA reporters with sources at the league office (like Zach Lowe) were saying a year ahead of time that there would be no amnesty clause in the new CBA because the cap was going to rise so much that there would be no need for it.
The fact that Zach Lowe (and other reporters) knew more about the upcoming CBA than one of the owners and the GM of the most profitable franchise in the league tells you everything to know about the Jim and Mitch era. It was absolutely unforgivable that they were making strategic decisions about the future of the franchise without having information that was easily obtainable.
Mitch was out of touch and behind the times, while Jim was insular and incompetent- their big picture strategy was a disaster time and time again. |
Yes. |
Also, it says a lot that a FO was giving out contracts planing ahead to amnesty them. WTF is that?
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