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levon
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
levon wrote:
we're gonna be a 28 win team again this year, if that

Depends on who they sign for the big one year max that's coming. They could just punt and take on an expiring contract (a la Jeremy Lin and Jose Calderon) to pick up an asset or two. But then the team probably wins roughly 25 games. That'd hurt Magic's ego, and just as importantly it'd hurt their chances of attracting PG13.

So we might sign Livingston or something to a one year, $18M contract or whatever to shore up our guard rotation. Factor in the lack of any tanking (when other teams will be) and I predict we'll hit around 32.

Don't think Livingston leaves. Maybe someone like Justin Holiday on a biggish deal and another 2nd yr non-guaranteed guy? I just don't think we'll muster the scoring talent for 32.

Unless Ball and Ingram are like transcendent
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
I'd just sign iguodala for 25-30mil for 1 year and call it a summer.


No, it's not complete yet till we package Ingram to get rid of Deng for another Cap Space guy. Two cap space guys > than Ingram and Russell. Ben Simmons and Embid ain't got nothing on our Cap Space duo!
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tox
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:58 pm    Post subject:

levon wrote:
tox wrote:
levon wrote:
we're gonna be a 28 win team again this year, if that

Depends on who they sign for the big one year max that's coming. They could just punt and take on an expiring contract (a la Jeremy Lin and Jose Calderon) to pick up an asset or two. But then the team probably wins roughly 25 games. That'd hurt Magic's ego, and just as importantly it'd hurt their chances of attracting PG13.

So we might sign Livingston or something to a one year, $18M contract or whatever to shore up our guard rotation. Factor in the lack of any tanking (when other teams will be) and I predict we'll hit around 32.

Don't think Livingston leaves. Maybe someone like Justin Holiday on a biggish deal and another 2nd yr non-guaranteed guy? I just don't think we'll muster the scoring talent for 32.

Unless Ball and Ingram are like transcendent

Yeah I guess we'll have to see. If we get a good guard, I can see us pushing at 30-32. Lopez is going to help a lot. People also downplay the benefits of not tanking when everyone is incentivized to tank. Heck, we were tanking last year and we still rode a 5 game win streak on the backs of other teams tanking harder.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:59 pm    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
nash wrote:
tox wrote:

I'm planning on writing an article which makes this trade look worse. It doesn't help them at all, and dumping Mozgov really just prettied up the fact that they dumped Russell for very nearly zero value.

That is -- assuming GT is alright with me writing that on LFR since it's not going to be a positive one.


It is safer to wait for a dozen of games next season before drawing conclusions.


Now there's the mother of all (bleep) irony.


lol

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tox
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:17 pm    Post subject:

I ran the numbers. They basically confirmed without a doubt that the Russell trade was not a salary dump to remove Mozgov. It was the best value they could get for dumping Russell. Period.

tl;dr stretching Mozgov vs having him off the books completely doesn't change whatsoever the plan for 2 maxes down the line. If the Lakers felt at all they wanted to keep Russell (even barely) they would have done so, because there's hardly any utility to dumping Mozgov, perception notwithstanding.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:23 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
I ran the numbers. They basically confirmed without a doubt that the Russell trade was not a salary dump to remove Mozgov. It was the best value they could get for dumping Russell. Period.

tl;dr stretching Mozgov vs having him off the books completely doesn't change whatsoever the plan for 2 maxes down the line. If the Lakers felt at all they wanted to keep Russell (even barely) they would have done so, because there's hardly any utility to dumping Mozgov, perception notwithstanding.

Thanks for that. Don't piss off the old Showtime Lakers crew, I guess.
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tox
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:26 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
tox wrote:
I ran the numbers. They basically confirmed without a doubt that the Russell trade was not a salary dump to remove Mozgov. It was the best value they could get for dumping Russell. Period.

tl;dr stretching Mozgov vs having him off the books completely doesn't change whatsoever the plan for 2 maxes down the line. If the Lakers felt at all they wanted to keep Russell (even barely) they would have done so, because there's hardly any utility to dumping Mozgov, perception notwithstanding.

Thanks for that. Don't piss off the old Showtime Lakers crew, I guess.

Yeah it'll get posted to LFR soon but it's pretty interesting. You know Rob & Magic did the math themselves and realized there's no real value to dumping Russell and Mozgov. So the plan was to get rid of Russell and see what they could get alongside that.

I suppose if they really hated the kid that much, it makes sense to just derive as much value as possible. I hope we find out some nasty things about him, and not just "he's not a leader" and "unimpressive work ethic" as if we're in the position to dump talented 21 year olds for not being model personalities.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:27 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
I ran the numbers. They basically confirmed without a doubt that the Russell trade was not a salary dump to remove Mozgov. It was the best value they could get for dumping Russell. Period.

tl;dr stretching Mozgov vs having him off the books completely doesn't change whatsoever the plan for 2 maxes down the line. If the Lakers felt at all they wanted to keep Russell (even barely) they would have done so, because there's hardly any utility to dumping Mozgov, perception notwithstanding.


Only caveat there is they could have gotten a better asset by not attaching mozgov. They basically decided to dump both and use Dlo's value to offset mozgov's salary.
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tox
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:36 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
tox wrote:
I ran the numbers. They basically confirmed without a doubt that the Russell trade was not a salary dump to remove Mozgov. It was the best value they could get for dumping Russell. Period.

tl;dr stretching Mozgov vs having him off the books completely doesn't change whatsoever the plan for 2 maxes down the line. If the Lakers felt at all they wanted to keep Russell (even barely) they would have done so, because there's hardly any utility to dumping Mozgov, perception notwithstanding.


Only caveat there is they could have gotten a better asset by not attaching mozgov. They basically decided to dump both and use Dlo's value to offset mozgov's salary.


Yeah.

I was thinking the Lakers couldn't get a lottery pick for Russell + Mozgov (as opposed to Russell himself) but I guess not. Because Mozgov doesn't affect their future plans at all, I imagine Rob and Magic first tried to get a good asset without attaching Mozgov. When they saw no interest, they decided to see what people were offering and Nets apparently seemed amenable to taking Mozgov. Good PR win for Rob and Magic and we know how Magic feels about that.

At least that's my speculation.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:42 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
tox wrote:
I ran the numbers. They basically confirmed without a doubt that the Russell trade was not a salary dump to remove Mozgov. It was the best value they could get for dumping Russell. Period.

tl;dr stretching Mozgov vs having him off the books completely doesn't change whatsoever the plan for 2 maxes down the line. If the Lakers felt at all they wanted to keep Russell (even barely) they would have done so, because there's hardly any utility to dumping Mozgov, perception notwithstanding.


Only caveat there is they could have gotten a better asset by not attaching mozgov. They basically decided to dump both and use Dlo's value to offset mozgov's salary.


Yeah.

I was thinking the Lakers couldn't get a lottery pick for Russell + Mozgov (as opposed to Russell himself) but I guess not. Because Mozgov doesn't affect their future plans at all, I imagine Rob and Magic first tried to get a good asset without attaching Mozgov. When they saw no interest, they decided to see what people were offering and Nets apparently seemed amenable to taking Mozgov. Good PR win for Rob and Magic and we know how Magic feels about that.

At least that's my speculation.

Makes you wonder what was actually going on w/ DLO if they wanted him gone THAT bad. I refuse to believe it was just "he wasn't a leader" or "he's too aloof", because those are just insane reasons to trade a productive 21 year old.
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tox
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:45 pm    Post subject:

AY2043 wrote:

Makes you wonder what was actually going on w/ DLO if they wanted him gone THAT bad. I refuse to believe it was just "he wasn't a leader" or "he's too aloof", because those are just insane reasons to trade a productive 21 year old.

I don't think it has to be anything that bad. I just think it was a poor cultural fit. They didn't like him and thought he was expendable, so they dumped him for the best value they could get. It happened to be the ability to get rid of Mozgov and to pick up Kyle Kuzma, apparently.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:52 pm    Post subject:

The DLO trade is looking worse and worse.

Lopez ia fine 1 year center and a good player, we got #27, and got out of Moz but now we've got even more young guys who we have no idea if their games will translate whatsoever.

4 ROOKIES? That's overkill.

I couldn't even find myself getting excited about this draft knowing that trade was about to be made official.
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AY2043
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:54 pm    Post subject:

Still just in disbelief they pulled this (bleep) tbh

Last edited by AY2043 on Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:56 pm    Post subject:

AY2043 wrote:
Still just in disbelief they pulled his (bleep) tbh


Then Pelinka sits up there and talks about D'Angelo is an "extraordinary talent". What a chump.
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tox
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:58 pm    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
AY2043 wrote:
Still just in disbelief they pulled his (bleep) tbh


Then Pelinka sits up there and talks about D'Angelo is an "extraordinary talent". What a chump.

It would have been a lot less disingenuous if he just said "Russell is very talented but he didn't fit the direction of our team going forward." Because that's really what it boiled down to.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:03 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
2019 wrote:
AY2043 wrote:
Still just in disbelief they pulled his (bleep) tbh


Then Pelinka sits up there and talks about D'Angelo is an "extraordinary talent". What a chump.

It would have been a lot less disingenuous if he just said "Russell is very talented but he didn't fit the direction of our team going forward." Because that's really what it boiled down to.


The perfect SG for this team is Russell + good defense. Seeing as he's 21, I see the d aspect picking up at least to average.

So Im not sure how he doesn't fit the direction of the team.
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tox
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:11 am    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
tox wrote:
2019 wrote:
AY2043 wrote:
Still just in disbelief they pulled his (bleep) tbh


Then Pelinka sits up there and talks about D'Angelo is an "extraordinary talent". What a chump.

It would have been a lot less disingenuous if he just said "Russell is very talented but he didn't fit the direction of our team going forward." Because that's really what it boiled down to.


The perfect SG for this team is Russell + good defense. Seeing as he's 21, I see the d aspect picking up at least to average.

So Im not sure how he doesn't fit the direction of the team.

He doesn't fit the direction culturally. It's pretty clear they didn't like his locker room personality, his work ethic, etc and decided to dump him on the basis of that. I'm personally of the opinion that 21 year olds have room to grow, and we can't afford to dump talented players for no reason, but evidently Rob and Pelinka disagree.

I think people are imagining he has to be Latrell Sprewell-esque or something, and I just don't think so. I think the Lakers didn't want to deal with his personality, so they just shipped him off for the best return they could get. The end.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:27 am    Post subject:

The Lakers are not in position to be giving up talented assets especially our best player. The Lakers had leverage with Paul George but they panicked and gave up on DLO a year early. I didn't even like DLO but it's painfully obvious that magic went with his personal agenda instead of the sound business decision. This move was impulsive just like magic Johnson's past tweets, we know from his tweeting history how idiotic his views are that's who is running our team now.....
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tox
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:44 am    Post subject:

PROPHET wrote:
The Lakers are not in position to be giving up talented assets especially our best player. The Lakers had leverage with Paul George but they panicked and gave up on DLO a year early. I didn't even like DLO but it's painfully obvious that magic went with his personal agenda instead of the sound business decision. This move was impulsive just like magic Johnson's past tweets, we know from his tweeting history how idiotic his views are that's who is running our team now.....

Well the issue with blaming it on Magic's personal agenda is that it doesn't seem that Luke particularly advocated for Russell to stay either. Magic is like Byron to me... outdated and frankly an idiot (that's why I'm posting on the P&M thread). But when Luke doesn't defend you either, then obviously it's not just an impulsive idiot being an idiot.

I agree with you that I wouldn't just dump talent for being immature, especially when we got nothing of real value in return (#27, and cap space we don't actually need). But they probably felt he was replaceable after drafting Ball so they just dumped him for whatever value he could get.

The entire thing was horribly mismanaged and I disagree with it all, by the way. I'm just saying that's probably what happened.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:45 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
The Lakers will have done their CBA homework, which is that they gained almost zero practical CBA advantage dumping Mozgov at the cost of Russell, i.e. yes they save $6.5M in cap space for 5 years, but in real terms that wasn't going to affect their future plans. Dumping Mozgov and getting back #27 were obviously just the Lakers' best return for Russell without taking any salary back. Primary goal was to get rid of him.


I think the rest of the league was working over Magic hoping he would bite on a bad deal... and he finally did. A #2 pick for a #27 and salary dump... good grief... #2 picks don't come around very often... but salary dumps and #27 picks can be had by everyone, every year.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:47 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
PROPHET wrote:
The Lakers are not in position to be giving up talented assets especially our best player. The Lakers had leverage with Paul George but they panicked and gave up on DLO a year early. I didn't even like DLO but it's painfully obvious that magic went with his personal agenda instead of the sound business decision. This move was impulsive just like magic Johnson's past tweets, we know from his tweeting history how idiotic his views are that's who is running our team now.....

Well the issue with blaming it on Magic's personal agenda is that it doesn't seem that Luke particularly advocated for Russell to stay either. Magic is like Byron to me... outdated and frankly an idiot (that's why I'm posting on the P&M thread). But when Luke doesn't defend you either, then obviously it's not just an impulsive idiot being an idiot.

I agree with you that I wouldn't just dump talent for being immature, especially when we got nothing of real value in return (#27, and cap space we don't actually need). But they probably felt he was replaceable after drafting Ball so they just dumped him for whatever value he could get.

The entire thing was horribly mismanaged and I disagree with it all, by the way. I'm just saying that's probably what happened.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:52 am    Post subject:

M2K wrote:
tox wrote:
The Lakers will have done their CBA homework, which is that they gained almost zero practical CBA advantage dumping Mozgov at the cost of Russell, i.e. yes they save $6.5M in cap space for 5 years, but in real terms that wasn't going to affect their future plans. Dumping Mozgov and getting back #27 were obviously just the Lakers' best return for Russell without taking any salary back. Primary goal was to get rid of him.


I think the rest of the league was working over Magic hoping he would bite on a bad deal... and he finally did. A #2 pick for a #27 and salary dump... good grief... #2 picks don't come around very often... but salary dumps and #27 picks can be had by everyone, every year.


FWIW, like I responded to Omar, I actually think Russell didn't have that much value around the league. Like I said, dumping Mozgov doesn't really help the Lakers, so the Lakers probably wanted the best possible return from Russell. So those rumors about the Lakers not being able to get a late lottery pick for Russell (by himself)? Probably true.

I have no idea why his value is so low though. There's literally no actual reason that Booker should be near untouchable for the Suns and Russell can't even fetch #12, based on on-court play. So he must have serious off-the-court issues that scared off a team like the Pistons from trading for him... but by all accounts he seems to just be a grumpy know-it-all with questionable work ethic. It's not really that bad...? I guess he just got to the point where his reputation preceded him. Either that, or we at LG underrate the impact of the Snapchat (bleep). I actually wonder if that's a real locker room issue.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:55 am    Post subject:

Nice drafting by the FO
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:10 am    Post subject:

I still think Magic is an impulsive fool who gave up Russell too early for too little but the draft at least restored my faith in the FO. FO showed a vision with the moves about the type of team and locker room they want, and i love it since its built around a winning mindset.

I feel good about our future, in large part because we got lucky and kept our pick and had the 76ers pass on the better player. So ill take a fool in charge when hes a lucky fool.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:16 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
M2K wrote:
tox wrote:
The Lakers will have done their CBA homework, which is that they gained almost zero practical CBA advantage dumping Mozgov at the cost of Russell, i.e. yes they save $6.5M in cap space for 5 years, but in real terms that wasn't going to affect their future plans. Dumping Mozgov and getting back #27 were obviously just the Lakers' best return for Russell without taking any salary back. Primary goal was to get rid of him.


I think the rest of the league was working over Magic hoping he would bite on a bad deal... and he finally did. A #2 pick for a #27 and salary dump... good grief... #2 picks don't come around very often... but salary dumps and #27 picks can be had by everyone, every year.


FWIW, like I responded to Omar, I actually think Russell didn't have that much value around the league. Like I said, dumping Mozgov doesn't really help the Lakers, so the Lakers probably wanted the best possible return from Russell. So those rumors about the Lakers not being able to get a late lottery pick for Russell (by himself)? Probably true.

I have no idea why his value is so low though. There's literally no actual reason that Booker should be near untouchable for the Suns and Russell can't even fetch #12, based on on-court play. So he must have serious off-the-court issues that scared off a team like the Pistons from trading for him... but by all accounts he seems to just be a grumpy know-it-all with questionable work ethic. It's not really that bad...? I guess he just got to the point where his reputation preceded him. Either that, or we at LG underrate the impact of the Snapchat (bleep). I actually wonder if that's a real locker room issue.

I think this is also FO's choice. Magic wanted to move Russell. Other teams would wonder why and that dropped his trade value.
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