As GT and Darius Soriano correctly said in their podcast, cast aside how you feel personally about DLO. Was this a good transaction?
This is where I'm still uncomfortable. If we agree that DLO needed to be traded, could we do better if we had waited? That's my lingering question about this.
Simply put, we acted like the guy who buys the car on unfavorable terms b/c the dealership is about to close for the night.
Come back the next day or a month later on better terms!
I've been trying to make that point to people too. But they'd prefer to think we're just obsessed fans who can't let go of D'Lo.
Even when I defended him, not once did I say he was a surefire superstar or HOFer. I just defended him against those who said he was no better than Kendall Marshall or a bust, which are clearly false.
Yep. Same here. I think he could make some All-Star teams and is on a trajectory to be a good player, but very few of us ever said he was some GOAT. You can only either love or hate D'Lo. Think he's gonna be a GOAT or a scrub. There's no in between.
This is like a public defender defending a criminal defendant being accused of believing/vouching for that person personally. It's called due process.
Im still shocked how many fans adored Russell.. He did very little to earn it. Im guessing it has a lot of residual defense he had before and after we drafted him and ever since people have cemented themselves in their stance despite the fact him showing qualities that show that he wasn't exactly what we hoped he'd be when we drafted him (and pretty early on)... It wasn't just Byron Scott who fell out of favor with him, but it was Kobe too. Kobe was the first to tell you, that he didn't see the next Lakers star on the roster. We then hire Luke Walton, and he echoes literally the exact sentiments of the aforementioned. At some point you got to put the blame on the common denominator and admit Russell isn't as good as you guys think. He has some nice skills, but is he a star? No. He just carries himself like one without actually doing the work or doing anything that leads to wins.... Maybe he becomes the next Chauncey Billups. He's not a bust, but no question he's a disappointment. And with a star in Lonzo Ball coming in who plays the position where Russell is best fit, his value was only going to go down.
It's not like the Lakers didn't try to find better deals, but the best time to trade Russell was now and the Nets presented the best offer. Capspace, 1st round pick, and a player that has shown he can put up 20ppg consistently.
That's the thing, I really don't think THAT many people "adored" Russell. Another thing that I feel is lost by your guys' side of things. I don't know if anyone will believe me on this, but I've felt way more attached to a ton of other players than I do Russell, on his own merits. What we had was mostly people who thought he was a good, young prospect vs. a group of people WHO HATED HIS (bleep) GUTS, many from the moment he was drafted, or his first Summer League game. Never seen anything like it.
So this led to people like me constantly defending him. I've said on a number of occasions that I think he'll make a couple of all-star games in his career. Is that adoration? But I am gonna speak up when I see a HUGE disconnect between his production and his perception.
But yeah, at this point I'm attached because the last 2 years have really tugged at my sense of fairness. But adore him? Nah. I've been a Laker fan way longer than he's even been alive, and he didn't do enough here to be "adored" by me.
Can you explain the stat that the only players with Russell's PER at his age were Bird, Manu, and Chris Paul? Is that stat flawed or something?
I think that people don't give enough weight to the increased pace of today's game compared to the pace Bird, Manu, CP3 played at when they were DLO's age. The pace inflates his PPG, AST, REB numbers, and as a result, his PER.
Except the pace in the 80s when Bird played was even faster than today. And that, ya know, most advanced statistics adjust for pace anyway. You'd think someone named Math would know these things.
I cited PPG, AST, REB and PER. Those stats are not adjusted for pace.
And Bird played at a higher pace than today anyway. Which under cuts your math.
Moving the goalpost lol. I'll give you Bird, but nothing else. And the condescension wasn't warranted. _________________ I'm a Balliever.
Im still shocked how many fans adored Russell.. He did very little to earn it. Im guessing it has a lot of residual defense he had before and after we drafted him and ever since people have cemented themselves in their stance despite the fact him showing qualities that show that he wasn't exactly what we hoped he'd be when we drafted him (and pretty early on)... It wasn't just Byron Scott who fell out of favor with him, but it was Kobe too. Kobe was the first to tell you, that he didn't see the next Lakers star on the roster. We then hire Luke Walton, and he echoes literally the exact sentiments of the aforementioned. At some point you got to put the blame on the common denominator and admit Russell isn't as good as you guys think. He has some nice skills, but is he a star? No. He just carries himself like one without actually doing the work or doing anything that leads to wins.... Maybe he becomes the next Chauncey Billups. He's not a bust, but no question he's a disappointment. And with a star in Lonzo Ball coming in who plays the position where Russell is best fit, his value was only going to go down.
It's not like the Lakers didn't try to find better deals, but the best time to trade Russell was now and the Nets presented the best offer. Capspace, 1st round pick, and a player that has shown he can put up 20ppg consistently.
That's the thing, I really don't think THAT many people "adored" Russell. Another thing that I feel is lost by your guys' side of things. I don't know if anyone will believe me on this, but I've felt way more attached to a ton of other players than I do Russell, on his own merits. What we had was mostly people who thought he was a good, young prospect vs. a group of people WHO HATED HIS (bleep) GUTS, many from the moment he was drafted, or his first Summer League game. Never seen anything like it.
So this led to people like me constantly defending him. I've said on a number of occasions that I think he'll make a couple of all-star games in his career. Is that adoration? But I am gonna speak up when I see a HUGE disconnect between his production and his perception.
But yeah, at this point I'm attached because the last 2 years have really tugged at my sense of fairness. But adore him? Nah. I've been a Laker fan way longer than he's even been alive, and he didn't do enough here to be "adored" by me.
Can you explain the stat that the only players with Russell's PER at his age were Bird, Manu, and Chris Paul? Is that stat flawed or something?
I think that people don't give enough weight to the increased pace of today's game compared to the pace Bird, Manu, CP3 played at when they were DLO's age. The pace inflates his PPG, AST, REB numbers, and as a result, his PER.
Except the pace in the 80s when Bird played was even faster than today. And that, ya know, most advanced statistics adjust for pace anyway. You'd think someone named Math would know these things.
I cited PPG, AST, REB and PER. Those stats are not adjusted for pace.
And Bird played at a higher pace than today anyway. Which under cuts your math.
Moving the goalpost lol. I'll give you Bird, but nothing else. And the condescension wasn't warranted.
How am I moving the goal posts when you brought up pace? Bird played in faster era, so you're wrong about that. And Russell's statistical profile holds up even in circumstances that account for pace anyway, so your entire point is off.
Because PPG, AST, REB and PER are all impacted by pace. And apart from Bird, which I gave you, DLO played on a team with a faster pace in an era where most teams are playing at a faster pace as well. _________________ I'm a Balliever.
Most people aren't saying Russell can't play but when Dallas, arguably the most analytics heavy team in the league, yawned at Russell for the 9 pick, there's something going on.
Most people aren't saying Russell can't play but when Dallas, arguably the most analytics heavy team in the league, yawned at Russell for the 9 pick, there's something going on.
Does it really matter anymore? He's gone. Let him lie in peace.
We have Lonzo, hopefully PG13 coming. Let DLO find himself on the Nets. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:41 pm Post subject:
GreekTrojan wrote:
Most people aren't saying Russell can't play but when Dallas, arguably the most analytics heavy team in the league, yawned at Russell for the 9 pick, there's something going on.
Well he's not a good analytics player. Bad knees, bad attitude, bad eyebrows... it all adds up.
Because PPG, AST, REB and PER are all impacted by pace. And apart from Bird, which I gave you, DLO played on a team with a faster pace in an era where most teams are playing at a faster pace as well.
And when you look at stats that account for that, D'Lo's stats still hold up. So, I repeat, what you said was incorrect.
Most people aren't saying Russell can't play but when Dallas, arguably the most analytics heavy team in the league, yawned at Russell for the 9 pick, there's something going on.
I like Russell and I'd yawn if I had to give up the no. 9 pick to get him and accept Mozgov. You're not saying anything because no one is going to give up a lottery pick to acquire a guy packaged with a bad contract unless the guy is already a superstar. And no one is saying D'Angelo is a superstar.
Last edited by KBH on Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Most people aren't saying Russell can't play but when Dallas, arguably the most analytics heavy team in the league, yawned at Russell for the 9 pick, there's something going on.
I like Russell and I'd yawn if I had to give up the no. 9 pick to get him and accept Mozgov. You're not saying anything because no one is going to give up a lottery pick to acquire a guy unless the guy is already a superstar. And no one is saying D'Angelo is a superstar.
Is there any evidence one way or another -- Russell was being shopped for #9, or Russell was shopped for #9 and Mozgov?
Most people aren't saying Russell can't play but when Dallas, arguably the most analytics heavy team in the league, yawned at Russell for the 9 pick, there's something going on.
I like Russell and I'd yawn if I had to give up the no. 9 pick to get him and accept Mozgov. You're not saying anything because no one is going to give up a lottery pick to acquire a guy unless the guy is already a superstar. And no one is saying D'Angelo is a superstar.
Is there any evidence one way or another -- Russell was being shopped for #9, or Russell was shopped for #9 and Mozgov?
There's a big difference.
I'm not even sure, but I'm going to assume that they did for the sake of their argument. But evidence suggests that we were trying to shed salary in moving Russell.
If you've seen my posts all season, I approve. We needed to get rid of one of those horrible contracts and I also said what I said about Russell. Russell may have still been a Lakers if it wasn't for Mozdeng. _________________
"Through the legs to the left, through the legs to the right, we don't run them Laker plays, we just Kobe fadeaway..."
If you've seen my posts all season, I approve. We needed to get rid of one of those horrible contracts and I also said what I said about Russell. Russell may have still been a Lakers if it wasn't for Mozdeng.
This and only this. I wonder Mitch and Jim can sleep at night knowing how they effed up the franchise
After all, building a championship contender isn't science - a lot of luck is also involved. Look at the Warriors. They made some great picks. But nobody would have thought that Curry, Thompson and Green would become the players they are now. And adding Durant was only possible because of an CBA anomaly.
But still some things stand if we talk about contenders:
- You need 1 Top 5 player of the league. but even if you have you need a lot of luck and a very strong supporting cast to make a run. (Mavericks with Nowitzki). Most of the time 1 Top 5 guy isn't enough.
- You can compete if you have 2 Top 15 guys, preferrably 1 guard and 1 forward.
The Warriors and the Cavs are not the norm. This anomaly will go away in 3 or 4 years.
What can the Lakers do, to get 2 Top 15 guys?
- Get them through the draft. They drafted Randle, Russell, Ingram and now probably Ball with high lottery picks.
Does Randle and Russell look like Top 15 players? Not to me, obviously not to the FO and the coach either. Jury is still out on Ingram and of course the No. 2 pick.
And now comes the hard part: What do you do with these players, knowing that they might become pretty good, but not great? Do you pay them? Or do you trade them before they gobble up a big amount of cap space?
If mediocre or playoff team is enough for you ... you keep them and sign those two to 20 million $ each. They will be good players. But you won't get them for 12-13 millions a year. So they would be payed nearly as much as real Top player .... but they aren't. Not enough bang for the buck imho.
-Get them by trade or free agency If we would trade Clarkson/Randle, 27th, 28th for Paul George we would have 1 Top 15 player in stock (Top 15 for being a two-way-player).
Now where does the 2nd Top 15 player come from? Trade again? Not likely cause we would need Ingram, No.2 or both to trade for a Butler or a player of this caliber. And we still need quality players to support the 2 Top 15 players.
So that leaves free agency. To do that, you have to have cap space. What the Lakers have now. Does it work everytime? No. But the FO had to decide, if they have enough talent in the organisation already, or not, Obviously they haven't thought, that DAR can reach this level. So they traded him - yes, for cap space and a pick.
We know 2018 if it worked out. It's bold. But i don't see any other way to get the required Star-Power to the team.
The big question now is, if you are even more bold and DO NOT trade for Paul George and rely on him signing next year. Randle, Clarkson, 27th, 28th and what you can get for Lopez at the deadline are good trade chips to round out the team.
When I first herd the deal I was upset. I've had a little time to accept what has happened and now think it was a good deal.
We got the best player in the deal, the 27th and created a ton of cap space. Yes it hurt to lose Dlo but we had to get Moz of the books.
Now we have to pay another price and get Deng off our books. I hope only this time Randle and little extra can make it happen.
You only get the cap space you desire so highly if you renounce the" best player in the trade".
That is the best part, you got the best player in the trade, got rid of one of the worst contracts ever in the process and have the option to let the best player of the trade go if you can sign a player that is even better than him.
As GT and Darius Soriano correctly said in their podcast, cast aside how you feel personally about DLO. Was this a good transaction?
This is where I'm still uncomfortable. If we agree that DLO needed to be traded, could we do better if we had waited? That's my lingering question about this.
Simply put, we acted like the guy who buys the car on unfavorable terms b/c the dealership is about to close for the night.
Come back the next day or a month later on better terms!
Just a theory here.
Do you remember when Russell was moved to the SG spot with Clarkson starting at PG? Now tell me, after a couple of games despite the SG label do you really think his role changed a bit?
If we draft Ball or other guard as expected it is possible that the decision makers want this player to run the show something borderline impossible since Russell is a ball dominant player no matter what.
Another point, if Russell main problem was really the overall lack of professionalism as reported they may want someone with this behavior away from our young core.
Russell is a talented player that can really score, it doesn't makes any sense moving him to clear cap space without some serious question behind the scenes. Ball talking about leadership and our need for a PG alongside reports from Ramona, Ding and others made me believe Magic/Pelinka and had the decision to move Russell set in stone for some time.
I believe Russell was aware that he could be moved since the end of last season.
well said. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
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