Simple of reality of why FA signings won't compete with GSW / Spurs
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yammy1688
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Simple of reality of why FA signings won't compete with GSW / Spurs

In basketball, as most sports, cap space = skill, all other things being equal.

They have about 20-30 more million in cap room than the other teams. Why?

They have TOP tier players willing to take pay cuts to stay there. This essentially equates to more cap, as the players would have commanded higher on other teams. Why?

These TOP tier players were nurtured under a system that has given them the opportunity to grow into who they are, allowed to make mistakes, lose a lot, and they are returning the loyalty. Other elite FAs will want to play with these players because they're good now...

An assembled team of elite FAs will not compete $ for $ with that. This trajectory is not looking good for Magic.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: Simple of reality of why FA signings won't compete with GSW / Spurs

yammy1688 wrote:
In basketball, as most sports, cap space = skill, all other things being equal.

They have about 20-30 more million in cap room than the other teams. Why?

They have TOP tier players willing to take pay cuts to stay there. This essentially equates to more cap, as the players would have commanded higher on other teams. Why?

These TOP tier players were nurtured under a system that has given them the opportunity to grow into who they are, allowed to make mistakes, lose a lot, and they are returning the loyalty. Other elite FAs will want to play with these players because they're good now...

An assembled team of elite FAs will not compete $ for $ with that. This trajectory is not looking good for Magic.


Father Time is still the great equalizer.
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yammy1688
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Simple of reality of why FA signings won't compete with GSW / Spurs

pio2u wrote:
yammy1688 wrote:
In basketball, as most sports, cap space = skill, all other things being equal.

They have about 20-30 more million in cap room than the other teams. Why?

They have TOP tier players willing to take pay cuts to stay there. This essentially equates to more cap, as the players would have commanded higher on other teams. Why?

These TOP tier players were nurtured under a system that has given them the opportunity to grow into who they are, allowed to make mistakes, lose a lot, and they are returning the loyalty. Other elite FAs will want to play with these players because they're good now...

An assembled team of elite FAs will not compete $ for $ with that. This trajectory is not looking good for Magic.


Father Time is still the great equalizer.


And Father time is no longer on our side now that we killed a huge part of what makes teams like GS and SA successful. It's like harvesting at the first sign of fruit instead of waiting for the bounty.
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dengman
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject:

The plan is to have 3 max slots for:

LBJ/PG13/DMC

with a young core of:

Ball
Ingram
Zubac
Nance
Stretch 4/Shot Blocker drafted at 27
Athletic Wing SG at 28

MLE: Pat Beverly/D. Wade/C. Bosh/Ariza/Danny Green

Team Profile: Athletic/Ball Movement/Tough/Defensive Minded

So Warriors meets Showtime.....
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yammy1688
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject:

dengman wrote:
The plan is to have 3 max slots for:

LBJ/PG13/DMC

with a young core of:

Ball
Ingram
Zubac
Nance
Stretch 4/Shot Blocker drafted at 27
Athletic Wing SG at 28

MLE: Pat Beverly/D. Wade/C. Bosh/Ariza/Danny Green

Team Profile: Athletic/Ball Movement/Tough/Defensive Minded

So Warriors meets Showtime.....


Uh. 3 max slots is NOT possible unless LB/PG/DMC take cuts to the tune of ~20 million. Think they'll do it? HAHAHA. On top of that, Ball, Ingram, Zubac, Nance, 27, 28 , at ~22 years old will compete with GSW????? hahahahahaha. wait. hahahahahahah. OK.

OK fast forward 3 years. GS on the decline, Kawaii i at his PEAK, Minny and Utah are kicking our ass cause it's golden state all over again cause they kept their talent.

What do we have? We have what Miami and Boston had post championhips, except no championships.
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yammy1688
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject:

What we COULD have had in 3 years:

Deng / Moz off the books


PG
D'Lo
Ingram
Nance
Zubac
Randle
Clarkson


all matured and on reasonable contracts, cause you're a good organization. the talent is brewing and team is beasting by now. This is how they got KD.
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AshesToAshes
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:09 am    Post subject:

Almost like they should change the super-max/all-nba clause to force a MINIMUM salary onto those players as well. And then another minimum for all-stars.

Then guys like lebron can't really collude but guys like PG who get slighted from their status get a whole other option to be competitive.

Or a team like GSW has some immediate concerns as the rules level out their unique luck.

Might even have an affect on multi-year tanking efforts. There's no point to it if your picks all pan out in the end.

Lastly, gets rid of demonizing players for NOT taking less which is just wrong in a capped league. demonize the owners for not paying the lux tax.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:10 am    Post subject:

The idea is to build a solid young core and then acquire some key free agents to put you over the op.

Blowing up the solid young core too soon and replacing them with overpaid older players with small windows will get us back to square one again with only a few playoff appearances to show for our efforts.
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danzag
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:14 am    Post subject:

Dr. Funkbot wrote:
The idea is to build a solid young core and then acquire some key free agents to put you over the op.

Blowing up the solid young core too soon and replacing them with overpaid older players with small windows will get us back to square one again with only a few playoff appearances to show for our efforts.


Go tell Magic about it.
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YSong
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject:

danzag wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
The idea is to build a solid young core and then acquire some key free agents to put you over the op.

Blowing up the solid young core too soon and replacing them with overpaid older players with small windows will get us back to square one again with only a few playoff appearances to show for our efforts.


Go tell Magic about it.


How do you acquire key FAs if you don't have salary space for them.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject:

YSong wrote:
danzag wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
The idea is to build a solid young core and then acquire some key free agents to put you over the op.

Blowing up the solid young core too soon and replacing them with overpaid older players with small windows will get us back to square one again with only a few playoff appearances to show for our efforts.


Go tell Magic about it.


How do you acquire key FAs if you don't have salary space for them.


How do you acquire key FAs without a good supporting cast, since you trade them all to have cap space?
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mad55557777
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject:

we used our best player to get rid of a bad contract we signed last season....
just brilliant moves by the previous management and the current management.
i don't see any team beating the GS unless they lose one of their big 4, it is not as simple as parlaying 2 -3 super stars, it is how well they will play together.
aging lebron +PG13+ DMC is not a good match.

in fact, in order to beat these warriors, the only move that could make that possible would be Lebron to the Spurs.
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av3773
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject:

We can land near 3 max players if we drop Randle, JC, Deng in addition to expiring Lopez

I actually think that is what Magic is now trying to do with PGs stong push to come here. Basically like Heat.

C- Zubac
PF - Bron/Nance
SF - George
SG - Westbrook
PG - Ball

it would require us to lose all but one of our top draft picks ..... that team definitely competes with the Warriors
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject:

yammy1688 wrote:
What we COULD have had in 3 years:

Deng / Moz off the books


PG
D'Lo
Ingram
Nance
Zubac
Randle
Clarkson


all matured and on reasonable contracts, cause you're a good organization. the talent is brewing and team is beasting by now. This is how they got KD.


Isn't that assuming too much?
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driver
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject:

FYI, both methods win: Miami superteam (or Cavs in this case) and Spurs/GSW organic + add players.

In the long run, I preferred the method that builds culture and longevity. It's how the spurs are alive nearly a decade. Now they are teasing getting CP3 to replace Manu/Parker. The Warriors are well on their way to emulate this.

That being said, LA can in theory build a super team of PG,LBJ,and I guess one more guy. But it's over in a flash. When Lebron left Miami, it left them desolate. They 2/4 on their rings. Solid but not three, not fo... Lebron is currently 1/3 on his Cavs team and it's already looking like he's gonna bail on them.

The thing that scares me isn't STARTING units. We can build a starting unit that competes. It's BENCH units. Depth of the bench sizzles the opposing team. When CP3 sat for the Clippers, Jazz brought in bench guys that extended the lead. When Harden sits, Spurs extended their lead through the bench. Cavs only had positive numbers when LBJ was on the floor. Every time he stepped off, his team went down.
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E=MC²
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject:

This Spurs team scares nobody. We will easily eclipse them. Warriors are a different story, with them it'll depend on their team harmony and hunger to win.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: Simple of reality of why FA signings won't compete with GSW / Spurs

pio2u wrote:
yammy1688 wrote:
In basketball, as most sports, cap space = skill, all other things being equal.

They have about 20-30 more million in cap room than the other teams. Why?

They have TOP tier players willing to take pay cuts to stay there. This essentially equates to more cap, as the players would have commanded higher on other teams. Why?

These TOP tier players were nurtured under a system that has given them the opportunity to grow into who they are, allowed to make mistakes, lose a lot, and they are returning the loyalty. Other elite FAs will want to play with these players because they're good now...

An assembled team of elite FAs will not compete $ for $ with that. This trajectory is not looking good for Magic.


Father Time is still the great equalizer.


Was gonna say the same thing. it's gonna take time. I still say we win a championship before the celtics, though
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:58 am    Post subject:

av3773 wrote:
We can land near 3 max players if we drop Randle, JC, Deng in addition to expiring Lopez

I actually think that is what Magic is now trying to do with PGs stong push to come here. Basically like Heat.

C- Zubac
PF - Bron/Nance
SF - George
SG - Westbrook
PG - Ball

it would require us to lose all but one of our top draft picks ..... that team definitely competes with the Warriors


You'd have no bench. Not enough balls to go around for Bron, PG, Westbrook.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject:

dengman wrote:
The plan is to have 3 max slots for:

LBJ/PG13/DMC

with a young core of:

Ball
Ingram
Zubac
Nance
Stretch 4/Shot Blocker drafted at 27
Athletic Wing SG at 28

MLE: Pat Beverly/D. Wade/C. Bosh/Ariza/Danny Green

Team Profile: Athletic/Ball Movement/Tough/Defensive Minded

So Warriors meets Showtime.....


Too bad that plan is impossible
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av3773
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject:

I don't believe that

Bron/Westbrook are already triple double machines.

Lonzo is past first

PG - also triple double threat


socalsp3 wrote:
av3773 wrote:
We can land near 3 max players if we drop Randle, JC, Deng in addition to expiring Lopez

I actually think that is what Magic is now trying to do with PGs stong push to come here. Basically like Heat.

C- Zubac
PF - Bron/Nance
SF - George
SG - Westbrook
PG - Ball

it would require us to lose all but one of our top draft picks ..... that team definitely competes with the Warriors


You'd have no bench. Not enough balls to go around for Bron, PG, Westbrook.
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yammy1688
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject:

YSong wrote:
danzag wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
The idea is to build a solid young core and then acquire some key free agents to put you over the op.

Blowing up the solid young core too soon and replacing them with overpaid older players with small windows will get us back to square one again with only a few playoff appearances to show for our efforts.


Go tell Magic about it.


How do you acquire key FAs if you don't have salary space for them.


By doing what GSW and SA did. Develop ELITE players who are loyay and willing to play for something more than jut money.
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yammy1688
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject:

driver wrote:
FYI, both methods win: Miami superteam (or Cavs in this case) and Spurs/GSW organic + add players.


Agreed, but which one wins more? And which trajectory were we on?

driver wrote:

In the long run, I preferred the method that builds culture and longevity. It's how the spurs are alive nearly a decade. Now they are teasing getting CP3 to replace Manu/Parker. The Warriors are well on their way to emulate this.

That being said, LA can in theory build a super team of PG,LBJ,and I guess one more guy. But it's over in a flash. When Lebron left Miami, it left them desolate. They 2/4 on their rings. Solid but not three, not fo... Lebron is currently 1/3 on his Cavs team and it's already looking like he's gonna bail on them.

The thing that scares me isn't STARTING units. We can build a starting unit that competes. It's BENCH units. Depth of the bench sizzles the opposing team. When CP3 sat for the Clippers, Jazz brought in bench guys that extended the lead. When Harden sits, Spurs extended their lead through the bench. Cavs only had positive numbers when LBJ was on the floor. Every time he stepped off, his team went down.



Yep. The basic equation is the same. Without elite players willing to sacrifice money, you don't win in the next 4-5 years.
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yammy1688
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Simple of reality of why FA signings won't compete with GSW / Spurs

dubaholic1 wrote:
pio2u wrote:
yammy1688 wrote:
In basketball, as most sports, cap space = skill, all other things being equal.

They have about 20-30 more million in cap room than the other teams. Why?

They have TOP tier players willing to take pay cuts to stay there. This essentially equates to more cap, as the players would have commanded higher on other teams. Why?

These TOP tier players were nurtured under a system that has given them the opportunity to grow into who they are, allowed to make mistakes, lose a lot, and they are returning the loyalty. Other elite FAs will want to play with these players because they're good now...

An assembled team of elite FAs will not compete $ for $ with that. This trajectory is not looking good for Magic.


Father Time is still the great equalizer.


Was gonna say the same thing. it's gonna take time. I still say we win a championship before the celtics, though


And what gives you this idea? The Celtics are absolutely in a much, much better position than we are.
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yammy1688
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:29 pm    Post subject:

E=MC² wrote:
This Spurs team scares nobody. We will easily eclipse them. Warriors are a different story, with them it'll depend on their team harmony and hunger to win.


Kawaii, who single handily shook GSW, doesn't scare you. OK.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject:

danzag wrote:
YSong wrote:
danzag wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
The idea is to build a solid young core and then acquire some key free agents to put you over the op.

Blowing up the solid young core too soon and replacing them with overpaid older players with small windows will get us back to square one again with only a few playoff appearances to show for our efforts.


Go tell Magic about it.


How do you acquire key FAs if you don't have salary space for them.


How do you acquire key FAs without a good supporting cast, since you trade them all to have cap space?


Man that "op" typo is bugging me LOL. But to answer your question, you develop the core. You keep and pay the players you like and move the rest or don't match their RFA offers. Just like the Warriors did with Barnes.

IMO moving DLO was not horrible because obviously we would not be able to pay DLO, Randle, BI, Lonzo, JC, Nance and Zu. But it was the timing. We traded him too soon. We should have at least waited until his 3'rd season before moving him if that was what we were going to do.
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