Can you understand the rationale behind signing MozDeng in the first place?
Yes, it was a completely reasonable move which just didn't work out.
4%
[ 3 ]
Yes, it was a bad move, but I understand the rationale behind it and it was not insane or anything.
20%
[ 15 ]
No, it was totally insane.
75%
[ 54 ]
Total Votes : 72
Author
Message
AncientMariner Starting Rotation
Joined: 29 May 2012 Posts: 261
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:49 am Post subject:
this topic is old and worn out. it's clear everyone hates those additions based on the salaries handed out. if they were given 8-10M over 3-4 or even 15-30M for one year no one would've cared. let's move on.
this topic is old and worn out. it's clear everyone hates those additions based on the salaries handed out. if they were given 8-10M over 3-4 or even 15-30M for one year no one would've cared. let's move on.
Yep pretty much. Besides - why ask the fan forums? Ask Jim and Mitch since they're the ones that did this.
They struck out in Free Agency for years. Most teams do, but the Lakers fancy themselves special. It started with stars leaving or declining our pitches (Dwight, Aldridge) and progressively got more embarrassing (Greg Monroe). They were feeling the heat of their jobs on the line after several losing seasons and lottery picks that didn't yield a sure fire star. Desperation set in, and the fear that another summer would go by without anyone interested in taking their money led to the quick Mozgov deal right at the opening bell of FA. Mozgov was someone they felt they could get if they overpaid him and that's what they did, despite the fact that he couldn't get on the floor in the Finals a month prior.
The money still burning a hole in their pocket, they turned to several wing players who shot them down one by one. They finally zeroed in on Deng who was far along the process of being overpaid by Washington on a 3 year deal and trumped it with a devastating 4th year. Just like that, 4 years of cap bloat. The minute they were announced both deals became untradeable without attaching a primo asset, which we saw play out the other day. _________________ 14-5-3-12
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7910 Location: Lake Forest
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:04 am Post subject:
Assumptions at the time:
1) Lakers are about winning.
2) Luke can install a system so we can use system players
3) The young'ins maturing will be the reason we can get a FA
The signings are at least 1 year to long, but served a purpose. Moz and Deng would still be our best C and Wing today without the trade. Ingram may surpass Deng soon. 3 consecutive years of throwing cap space around just prevented the build portion of rebuilding.
Reality:
1) Lakers were about Tanking
2) Luke couldn't/wouldn't purge iso play from the perimeter and there is no semblance of a defensive scheme.
3) Paul George is chasing the P&G, not our players.
We didn't want good vets, they all got early fishing licenses. Moz, Deng and Dlo are system players. Totally useless at the moment. That's why the iso-ists looked like our best players out there. And finally, 2 years after we signed the contracts, the first top tier FA to sniff P&G will be poking around.
this topic is old and worn out. it's clear everyone hates those additions based on the salaries handed out. if they were given 8-10M over 3-4 or even 15-30M for one year no one would've cared. let's move on.
Yep pretty much. Besides - why ask the fan forums? Ask Jim and Mitch since they're the ones that did this.
I'm pretty sure OP was trying to remind us that Mitch & Jim are the reason we are in this mess and not the current regime.
this topic is old and worn out. it's clear everyone hates those additions based on the salaries handed out. if they were given 8-10M over 3-4 or even 15-30M for one year no one would've cared. let's move on.
Yep pretty much. Besides - why ask the fan forums? Ask Jim and Mitch since they're the ones that did this.
I'm pretty sure OP was trying to remind us that Mitch & Jim are the reason we are in this mess and not the current regime.
Yet the OPs polling options mention nothing of the sort
this topic is old and worn out. it's clear everyone hates those additions based on the salaries handed out. if they were given 8-10M over 3-4 or even 15-30M for one year no one would've cared. let's move on.
Yep pretty much. Besides - why ask the fan forums? Ask Jim and Mitch since they're the ones that did this.
I'm pretty sure OP was trying to remind us that Mitch & Jim are the reason we are in this mess and not the current regime.
+1 _________________ "If You're Afraid To Fail...Then You're Probably Going To Fail."
- Kobe
twist: Mitch and Jim knew they weren't gonna make it through the length of those contracts, so they signed them on as poison pill for the next regime
Seems like a very Jim thing to do...not Mitch though.
I'd really like to know what Jesse and Ryan thought of those deals when they found out. _________________ "If You're Afraid To Fail...Then You're Probably Going To Fail."
- Kobe
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35750 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:35 am Post subject:
Mitch pretty much invalidated all the good trades he made with these deals. He should forever be remembered as a disgrace to the Lakers organization. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Worst free agent signings of the last 10 years. Too bad we replaced those idiots Jim and Mitch with possibly an even bigger idiot in Magic.
#BussKids
The signing had a number of supporters at the time, I seem to recall Ventura being a big fan of the Mozgov signing.
Gatekeeper wrote:
"Still hate that contract. "
Venturalakersfan wrote:
"Why, it isn't your money. And the Lakers still have cap space left. That makes no sense at all.
Glad we were able to fill a hole in our roster with a guy who is good at some of the offensive and defensive skills that Luke will ask from him. He should be a very good fit."
Surprised on how many comments are being made proposing that they were somehow signed as a spiteful screw you. Can't decide if it's just a select few trying to be clever or they truly believe Kupchak would be that unprofessional.
Kind of insane if you think that. Kupchak was nothing but a loyal Laker since his playing days. Even have a tough time believing Jim B. would be so petty with the family business.
I tend to believe they both had good intentions. Just didn't work out.
For me it is the timing that was most crucial. Both contracts were not planned to be off the books so quickly. Similar to the situation if you buy a new house at a high market price but accept the cost because you plan on keeping it 20 years. Then your plans change in two years and you get destroyed when you must sell it.
If you don't have the patience for the long term plan don't be surprised when you pay the price for being impulsive.
Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 9674 Location: San Diego
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:42 am Post subject:
Omar Little wrote:
The short version was they were supposed to help the young guys compete and get the team into the middle of the pack where the remaining cap room could sign a star, and then trades and whatnot flesh out a contending team.
Yep, this is how I remember it. But it never came to fruition.
Even Magic and Rob are looking to build a team that has some balance between youth and experience. A team needs balance this way in order to withstand time. As the older guys reach retirement, the young guys have learned and are coming into their own. They take over and we find them a couple more young guys to learn from them, the cycle repeats.
When all your players are old or young, there is no cycle. You have to start all over eventually. _________________ Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain
Worst free agent signings of the last 10 years. Too bad we replaced those idiots Jim and Mitch with possibly an even bigger idiot in Magic.
#BussKids
The signing had a number of supporters at the time, I seem to recall Ventura being a big fan of the Mozgov signing.
Gatekeeper wrote:
"Still hate that contract. "
Venturalakersfan wrote:
"Why, it isn't your money. And the Lakers still have cap space left. That makes no sense at all.
Glad we were able to fill a hole in our roster with a guy who is good at some of the offensive and defensive skills that Luke will ask from him. He should be a very good fit."
#ownitifyousayit
VLF shoots (off at the mouth) too much _________________ "If You're Afraid To Fail...Then You're Probably Going To Fail."
- Kobe
Mitch and Jim were expecting there to be another amnesty clause in the new CBA. Many expected it to be there but at the end they didn't include one
With the amnesty clause they would have been able to waive one THIS YEAR and completely take that player off the salary cap
I'm 100% certain that was the case and that was a huge mistake. They would amnesty one of the contracts after 1 or 2 years and try to carry on the other as long as possible, maybe stretching on year 3. Actually most people were not concerned about the money, but the length of the contracts..
We were pretty certain this time last year that there wouldn't be an amnesty clause in the new CBA. They came to pretty quick resolution on maintaining the revenue split and the basic escrow/tax system, and drastic changes in those are the reasons the put in amnesty in previous CBAs. If they thought amnesty was going to be a part of the new agreement, a quick call to the league would have disabused them of that notion.
Jim and Mitch felt they had to do something. They should have listened to John Wooden.
"Don't mistake activity with achievement" ~ John Wooden
On the other hand, if they had done nothing they probably would both be gone anyways.
They were kind of putting the position where they panicked and threw the dice, even if it was a low percentage gamble, because they would have also lost if they hadn't thrown the dice.
Jim and Mitch wanted the team to improve record wise so they would be more attractive to free agents. Luke really like Mozgov and thought he could do much more than he had in Cleveland(I think this was supported by Shaw too). So they jumped on him asap because of the big hole in the middle.
As for Deng, he wasn't their first choice. They struck out on Bazemore who seemed to use the Lakers as a bargaining tool against the Hawks. I think their were other young players that were on their radar, but didn't reciprocate the interest. Enter Luol Deng, and the Lakers desperation to find a sf/pf, and you have the 4 year abomination of a contract.
I think these were both Luke approved guys who he thought could fit in his system. Mitch and Jim wanted to get those guys for him because they all hoped they would result in more wins. _________________ "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up."-The Greatest
The Nash deal turned out much worse, but at least I understood the rationale for it at the time. Same with the Howard trade.
But the Mosgov and Deng signings made no sense on any level---paying near-superstar salaries to marginal players on a team that had no chance of being very good.
What's funny is that I think Mitch was actually TOO SMART for his job and over thought this. See Mitch was a cap expert and he always did things with long term implications such as signing Kwame to a crazy overpriced 3 year deal but made the last year a team option which ended up becoming the expiring we need for gasol. Or adding these crazy pick protections to the Nash trade that somehow saved us and got us some much needed youth.
So Mitch has always been swinging for the fences even at the loss of short term gains. We lost out on Lowry and IT due to a one in a million dream to get Lebron and others. So after failing to get these new guys the last few years, and knowing that his basketball boss had a self imposed time limit, Mitch decided not to chase the fake dreams and get reasonable solid vets to offset the youth. So moz and deng as players were really the type of players you wanted to have to help the likes of zubac and Ingram develop.
The problem was the exploding cba. Mitch doesn't play around and low ball, he has his financial calculations to determine fair market value and because of the cap rise all new contracts had to be adjusted in order to be fair. So the reality is Mitch probably would have paid moz $8m and deng $9m a year under the old cba which is a fair deal. But because of the cba he over thought it and calculated what he thought would be a mid level amount. And in some ways he is right. If lebron is going to get $40m a year then a deng or moz should be in the teens so it wasn't that much off.
But other teams still signed one year deals or contracts that made sense in the old cba, and looked super favorable in the new cba. If Mitch wasn't so thorough and fair, he would've avoided the grave he dug
All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3Next
Page 2 of 3
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum