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ringfinger
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 Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ^ I get that. But again, how many total years of high level basketball would you say Jayson Tatum has played vs Kuzma? That matters. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| CervantesRises wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | 32 wrote: | | When Kobe scored 62 points in 3 quarters at dallas it was 33 minutes. So it wasn't under 30 minutes. The 81 point game he played was the whole game. |
The point is, Kuzma got 41 in 29 minutes
Kobe got 62 in 33 minutes.
How many pts did Kobe have at the 29 minutes mark, 40? Did Kobe score 22 pts in 4 minutes? |
My exact question too.
Doesn't make sense. |
Guys — the stat is for all players who FINISHED the game with 29 or less minutes. The wording is misleading for sure. |
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awntawn
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | ^ I get that. But again, how many total years of high level basketball would you say Jayson Tatum has played vs Kuzma? That matters. |
Player A: 19 years 21/6/3
Player B: 22 years 16/4/4
Both rookies, who do you got? |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | CervantesRises wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | 32 wrote: | | When Kobe scored 62 points in 3 quarters at dallas it was 33 minutes. So it wasn't under 30 minutes. The 81 point game he played was the whole game. |
The point is, Kuzma got 41 in 29 minutes
Kobe got 62 in 33 minutes.
How many pts did Kobe have at the 29 minutes mark, 40? Did Kobe score 22 pts in 4 minutes? |
My exact question too.
Doesn't make sense. |
Guys — the stat is for all players who FINISHED the game with 29 or less minutes. The wording is misleading for sure. |
If you scored 70 pts in 29 mins but played one more minute to finish with 30 mins for the game, it wouldn’t count. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| awntawn wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ^ I get that. But again, how many total years of high level basketball would you say Jayson Tatum has played vs Kuzma? That matters. |
Player A: 19 years 21/6/3
Player B: 22 years 16/4/4
Both rookies, who do you got? |
I would take Player A almost every time if I only had that information. |
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Villain6Activated
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | 1ngr4m wrote: | If Kuzma never improves a single bit in his entire career, we have a guy that can get you 18/7 while being a lethal off ball scorer.
I still don't have a clear idea of his long term potential, but his work ethic along with his scoring makes me very optimistic. He's the one dude out of our young core that I look at and can tell that he's doing everything in his power to not (bleep) up this chance to stay with Lakers long term. I mean I'm sure all of them have that mindset, but he's more vocal about it. |
Honestly, I see Kuzma as a 23-25 ppg player. Dude just knows how to score. Imagine if he was shooting better from 3pt range. He'd be 21ppg or so this year.
He can score off the break, off the catch and shoot, off the dribble, in the post. He can shoot off of the wrong foot. He has little floaters.
I like how he went 4-20 and then came back 16-24. That's Kobe right there. I like how he came from Flint, Michigan. He doesn't take things for granted.
There's no way that Kuzma's not a 20ppg scorer in this league. |
Yeah, I see him as a sure fire 20 point scorer. However, the way I view his scoring game is like Klay Thompson being a scorer more then a shooter. He's lethal, can go off at any time and can be a really (bleep) good second option. But you need another first option and a few guys that can get buckets when he's not having a good scoring night.
But that's only with his current level, not accounting for improvements.
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awntawn
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | awntawn wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ^ I get that. But again, how many total years of high level basketball would you say Jayson Tatum has played vs Kuzma? That matters. |
Player A: 19 years 21/6/3
Player B: 22 years 16/4/4
Both rookies, who do you got? |
I would take Player A almost every time if I only had that information. |
You picked Melo over Wade.
So did the Nuggets  |
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CervantesRises
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | CervantesRises wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | 32 wrote: | | When Kobe scored 62 points in 3 quarters at dallas it was 33 minutes. So it wasn't under 30 minutes. The 81 point game he played was the whole game. |
The point is, Kuzma got 41 in 29 minutes
Kobe got 62 in 33 minutes.
How many pts did Kobe have at the 29 minutes mark, 40? Did Kobe score 22 pts in 4 minutes? |
My exact question too.
Doesn't make sense. |
Guys — the stat is for all players who FINISHED the game with 29 or less minutes. The wording is misleading for sure. |
If you scored 70 pts in 29 mins but played one more minute to finish with 30 mins for the game, it wouldn’t count. |
Yeah I think we both got that by the nature of the question...silly for them to take that approach imo given we look at games in terms of quarters or entire games not arbitrary marks like 29 minutes.
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Last edited by CervantesRises on Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | ^ I get that. But again, how many total years of high level basketball would you say Jayson Tatum has played vs Kuzma? That matters. |
It could POTENTIALLY matter is my point. Some players waste their youth, or their "developmental years."
Players like Wiggins, and KAT. They reached a point at 21 but didn't develop from 21 to 23.
People use youth/age like it's a given that all players develop due to age. Not necessarily.
At some point, you're going to have to actually develop. We can compare Tatum from last year to this year. Did he develop as a player?
Every player is different, and it's not guarantee. So, yeah, Tatum being younger is POTENTIALLY a big checkmark for him when compared to Kuzma. But that's all it is. It's potential.
People argue that it's a given that because Tatum is younger, he's guaranteed to end up better than Kuzma. I don't agree with that.
At some point, you have to drop the age difference and compare both players, mano y mano.
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:31 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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awntawn
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| 1ngr4m wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | 1ngr4m wrote: | If Kuzma never improves a single bit in his entire career, we have a guy that can get you 18/7 while being a lethal off ball scorer.
I still don't have a clear idea of his long term potential, but his work ethic along with his scoring makes me very optimistic. He's the one dude out of our young core that I look at and can tell that he's doing everything in his power to not (bleep) up this chance to stay with Lakers long term. I mean I'm sure all of them have that mindset, but he's more vocal about it. |
Honestly, I see Kuzma as a 23-25 ppg player. Dude just knows how to score. Imagine if he was shooting better from 3pt range. He'd be 21ppg or so this year.
He can score off the break, off the catch and shoot, off the dribble, in the post. He can shoot off of the wrong foot. He has little floaters.
I like how he went 4-20 and then came back 16-24. That's Kobe right there. I like how he came from Flint, Michigan. He doesn't take things for granted.
There's no way that Kuzma's not a 20ppg scorer in this league. |
Yeah, I see him as a sure fire 20 point scorer. However, the way I view his scoring game is like Klay Thompson being a scorer more then a shooter. He's lethal, can go off at any time and can be a really (bleep) good second option. But you need another first option and a few guys that can get buckets when he's not having a good scoring night.
But that's only with his current level, not accounting for improvements. |
Here's the thing. Kuz got 41 off no iso/pnr...
But he actually can score in iso/pnr unlike Klay. And create/playmake, despite his natural tendency being to score. He's just that versatile on the offensive end. |
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CervantesRises
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think we even consider AD unless we totally strike out in FA. NO is going to want way too much and the bidding war with Boston will be absurd...and one we can't win without including Kuz.
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| CervantesRises wrote: | | I don't think we even consider AD unless we totally strike out in FA. NO is going to want way too much and the bidding war with Boston will be absurd...and one we can't win without including Kuz. |
People say Boston has the assets to outbid everyone, but I disagree. I think they consider Tatum untouchable. If Tatum's a dealbreaker for them. And if Tatum's off the table, they don't have the assets to outbid everyone. |
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Kuz got wet Ladies and Gentlemen!
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awntawn
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | CervantesRises wrote: | | I don't think we even consider AD unless we totally strike out in FA. NO is going to want way too much and the bidding war with Boston will be absurd...and one we can't win without including Kuz. |
People say Boston has the assets to outbid everyone, but I disagree. I think they consider Tatum untouchable. If Tatum's a dealbreaker for them. And if Tatum's off the table, they don't have the assets to outbid everyone. |
Jaylen "Better player than Ingram right now" Brown with the impactful 2 points on 1-5 shooting |
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Gepetto
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | I’m surprised in all of Kobe’s massive game totals, he never went off for 41 or more in a blowout and only playing 29 mins. |
He was pretty difficult to tell to leave a game. |
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Villain6Activated
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | | Kuz got wet Ladies and Gentlemen! |
And in the process, I too, got wet.
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Cutheon
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | I’m surprised in all of Kobe’s massive game totals, he never went off for 41 or more in a blowout and only playing 29 mins. |
He scored 55 points in 23:56 once, so there's that. |
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cthroatgtr
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Of all of the current Lakers, Kuz is the one guy capable of getting hot and dropping a monster quarter like he did last night on any given night. What a steal of a draft with him and Hart at the end of the draft. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | A player's age is important when you're trying to draft a star. A star will outplay a max contract, so cheap rookie production isn't really the issue.
Tatum has production by age and time on his side to develop into a true star bef he reaches his peak. |
True and he's got lots of time to get better, but Year 2 Tatum has noticeably regressed with a bigger role and isn't nearly as good as the talking heads proclaimed him to be in last year's playoffs. I'm not saying he's bad and would obviously love to have him, but he's not the superstar people were screaming he was over the summer. |
I stand by my year five rule with guys drafted that young (age 19-20). But patience is boring and hot takes generate clicks and shares, so *shrug*
Superstars are so rare and it's that last little bit of skill/athleticism/something that separates damn good players like Paul George from franchise stars like Kawhi or Kevin Durant. I think Tatum can get to that PG13 level, but confidently predicting that he or any young guy will take that last, most difficult step from stardom to superstardom is a folly except in the rarest of cases like with Lebron or AD. But most of the time we don't ever see a great defender like Kawhi become an elite iso scorer or Steph developing into a functional defender and excellent finisher at the rim or Harden becoming the living embodiment of Morey-ball until it happens.
Tatum needs to become a better creator to open up the possibility of superstardom. But picking up how to read the floor and distribute can be more difficult than improving one's shot over time. And if Tatum tops out at Paul George, that's an excellent outcome for the #3 pick in any draft.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| waterman40 wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | h2omike wrote: | Tatum seems like one of those special players that really is worth the big bucks coming right out of one year of college. Personally, I hate these 19 year old one and donee, that haven't learned to play, can't shoot a lick, and earn high salaries while learning on the job.
I love that we drafted Kuzma later in the draft and he plays like a young all star. When it comes time to finally pay him, there is no question he deserves the max available. These other higher picks the Lakers have had have not shown they are good enough for big contracts yet. |
I really hope Kuzma doesn't expect a max contract. |
Maybe, maybe not, but which of these guys on the court has shown he is worth the biggest contract?
Kuzma
Ingram
Ball
Non of them is a max player today, but Kuzma I'd say is quite a bit closer to it than the other #2 picks. |
It doesn't matter because it's (hopefully) not a contest between them. In the Lakers interest I want each guy to take a reasonable discount off of whatever contract they seem worth 2-3 years from now so the team has even more flexibility to make future moves.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | awntawn wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | JPaulK0n wrote: |  Even Celtics homer Bill Simmons is down on Tatum. On the Zach Lowe Podcast said that Tatum has gotten worse from last year (Lowe mentioned same thing with Mitchell in Utah but never gets talked about), he doesn't get to the free throw line, 3 point % got worse, and shot selection is worse. FYI here are the stats Kuzma, Tatum, & Mitchell are putting up in their 2nd seasons.
Kuzma: 18/5/2, shooting 47% from the field, 30% from 3, 53% adjusted FG% per game, 1.240 points per shot per game, & 15.3 PER.
Tatum: 16/6/1, shooting 44% from the field, 36% from 3, 51% adjusted FG% per game, 1.212 points per shot per game, & 15.7 PER.
Mitchell: 20/3/3, shooting 41% from the field, 31% from 3, 47% adjusted FG% per game, 1.115 points per shot per game, & 14.6 PER.
From the eye test and from the advanced stats, Kuzma has been the best player from the three without a doubt. For the ones that are talking about total impact of the game, Kuz is putting up these numbers on a legit PLAYOFF team in only his 2nd season. The next step the Kuzma/Lakers haters are going to try to discount his play by saying that he's playing with LeBron and anybody could be as good playing next to LeBron soon. |
Yup, at some point, all players from their same draft class will be compared to each other, and age will be taken out of the conversation.
At some pt, it'll just be, who's the better player, Kuzma or Tatum?
Instead of, well, remember, Tatum's also 3 years younger.... |
In 10 years they'll still be going "but Tatum's big time playoff run in his rookie year" |
In 10 years, I doubt anyone will be saying - Kuzma might be better, but Kuzma's 33 and Tatum's only 30, so that makes Tatum better..... |
No, but that's not the crux of the focus on age.
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Villain6Activated
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Age and potential are literally the only reason the major consensus is that Tatum is better. Kuzma is a better overall scorer and has become a better playmaker by showing improvement. Tatum is a better shooter and a better defender. Tatum's defense might give him a small edge but that's bout it.
Honestly though, Tatum's rookie season was designed for him to disappoint initially atleast. One of the major reasons he was so jerked off was his efficiency (47/44/83 splits) but the major reason for his efficiency was the fact that his offensive role in the regular season was that of a role player. He was assisted on 57% of his 2 point field goals last season and 93% of his threes.
However if you put a star label on someone, being efficient isn't gonna cut it. I don't know why people thought he would up his overall counting numbers and be able to maintain that type of efficiency. And outside of that, what superstar level calling does he have? His vision, ball handling and playmaking doesn't scream future superstar.
So on the offensive end, he was basically a rookie Kyle Kuzma that got to play on a better offensive system which put him in place to succeed in that role. Now coming into this season, Kuzma's improvements really outweigh Tatum's.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | ^ I get that. But again, how many total years of high level basketball would you say Jayson Tatum has played vs Kuzma? That matters. |
3 for Tatum and 6 for Kuzma. Post high school careers.
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epak
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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The great thing for Tatum was that he got to shine in the playoffs.
His regular season was good. But not great.
Casual fans watch the playoffs at least and that's what get seared into fans minds. |
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LKA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| Cutheon wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | I’m surprised in all of Kobe’s massive game totals, he never went off for 41 or more in a blowout and only playing 29 mins. |
He scored 55 points in 23:56 once, so there's that. |
Yeah that guy wasn’t too bad |
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