| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
kobe_4_mvp
Star Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 3798
|
 Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jesusdelonla wrote: | | kobe_4_mvp wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | ingle wrote: | | I remember in June I posted that we'll forever regret choosing ass-licker Kuz over BI and got attacked by a mob. |
Yes, b/c that was never the Lakers' choice. Maybe we keep 1 more future pick or keep Hart instead of Kuz. That was it. |
 I wish. Ingram had to go, but Hart is the one we should’ve kept.
Kuzma: 12.9/3.8/1.1/34.2% 3pt
Hart: 10.7/5.9/1.5/35% 3pt |
lets put the entire picture in here:
Kuzma: 24.4mins
Hart: 28.6mins
1 is playing on trash team while the other 1 is playing alongside 2 top 5 players in the league |
what is kuzma gonna do in 4 more minutes? Kill momentum? Chuck a couple more 3s? A turnover or two? Take a few possessions off?
Yeah and somehow playing alongside these two top 5 players isn’t making him a better player? Thats interesting since LeBron has made a career out of getting the best out of his teammates and winning with them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29332
Location: La La Land
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | It's possible NOP would've taken Kuz instead of Ingram.
But we didn't choose Kuz over Ingram. We chose Kuz AND max player cap space over Ingram. |
Why? Griffin was drooling over BI.
I don't get how people are discounting the max slot. It has been the Lakers Moby Dick to have a max FA sign (across Jim/Mitch to Magic/Rob to Rob). So of course, under those realities, BI/Zo/4th had to be traded to get AD and have a max slot. |
People were worried about Ingram being the next Chris Bosh. IIRC he couldn't even work out right away after the clot got cleared since he was on blood thinners. And in fairness. He is just one more blood clot away from being out of the league. Even now.
Plus Kuzma was better value as of last year if you look at production vs. salary.
We agree on the max slot part.
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think Kuz is a better player than Hart, but Hart would have fit in better with his role on the team. He knows he's not a star and does his role player job really well. Kuz, I think he still thinks he can be an all star. That remains to be seen but their mindsets are totally different.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kikanga wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | It's possible NOP would've taken Kuz instead of Ingram.
But we didn't choose Kuz over Ingram. We chose Kuz AND max player cap space over Ingram. |
Why? Griffin was drooling over BI.
I don't get how people are discounting the max slot. It has been the Lakers Moby Dick to have a max FA sign (across Jim/Mitch to Magic/Rob to Rob). So of course, under those realities, BI/Zo/4th had to be traded to get AD and have a max slot. |
People were worried about Ingram being the next Chris Bosh. IIRC he couldn't even work out right away after the clot got cleared since he was on blood thinners. And in fairness. He is just one more blood clot away from being out of the league. Even now.
Plus Kuzma was better value as of last year if you look at productive vs. salary. |
But that still disregards the Lakers most-open playbook: the max slot. We've passed that max slot along for what feels like a decade and that was a secondary goal of any AD trade. Regardless, I think there are two levels (cap and talent-based reasons). I think BI to Pels was inevitable on both levels.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29332
Location: La La Land
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | It's possible NOP would've taken Kuz instead of Ingram.
But we didn't choose Kuz over Ingram. We chose Kuz AND max player cap space over Ingram. |
Why? Griffin was drooling over BI.
I don't get how people are discounting the max slot. It has been the Lakers Moby Dick to have a max FA sign (across Jim/Mitch to Magic/Rob to Rob). So of course, under those realities, BI/Zo/4th had to be traded to get AD and have a max slot. |
People were worried about Ingram being the next Chris Bosh. IIRC he couldn't even work out right away after the clot got cleared since he was on blood thinners. And in fairness. He is just one more blood clot away from being out of the league. Even now.
Plus Kuzma was better value as of last year if you look at productive vs. salary. |
But that still disregards the Lakers most-open playbook: the max slot. We've passed that max slot along for what feels like a decade and that was a secondary goal of any AD trade. Regardless, I think there are two levels (cap and talent-based reasons). I think BI to Pels was inevitable on both levels. |
| kikanga wrote: | | We agree on the max slot part. |
We'd be better off if we kept didn't waste our time on Kawhi.
Either keep Ingram. Or sign Butler in FA.
Pretty much every year. For every team that left open max cap space to get "the guy" and did. There are 3 to 4 other teams who did the same thing and never did.
I get it hindsight is 20/20. Just pointing out there was a route to being better than we are now, and we missed out on it. Nothing to kill ourselves over though. We're still the 2nd best team in the league record wise.
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I get it hindsight is 20/20. Just pointing out there was a route to being better than we are now, and we missed out on it. Nothing to kill ourselves over though. We're still the 2nd best team in the league record wise. |
There will almost always be a "better way" when it's in hindsight. I don't think people were faulting the Lakers trading for AD AND preserving a max slot.
I do agree we had horrible intel on Kawhi and he strung us along like OJ did on the Bronco chase. You and I had Jimmy high on the list and I also wanted DLO if Jimmy wasn't available.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29332
Location: La La Land
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I get it hindsight is 20/20. Just pointing out there was a route to being better than we are now, and we missed out on it. Nothing to kill ourselves over though. We're still the 2nd best team in the league record wise. |
There will almost always be a "better way" when it's in hindsight. I don't think people were faulting the Lakers trading for AD AND preserving a max slot.
I do agree we had horrible intel on Kawhi and he strung us along like OJ did on the Bronco chase. You and I had Jimmy high on the list and I also wanted DLO if Jimmy wasn't available. |
People faulted the Lakers when they saw what the max slot turned into. Good plan, less than perfect execution.
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kikanga wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I get it hindsight is 20/20. Just pointing out there was a route to being better than we are now, and we missed out on it. Nothing to kill ourselves over though. We're still the 2nd best team in the league record wise. |
There will almost always be a "better way" when it's in hindsight. I don't think people were faulting the Lakers trading for AD AND preserving a max slot.
I do agree we had horrible intel on Kawhi and he strung us along like OJ did on the Bronco chase. You and I had Jimmy high on the list and I also wanted DLO if Jimmy wasn't available. |
People faulted the Lakers when they saw what the max slot turned into. Good plan, less than perfect execution. |
Indeed. It's amazing to me that we are 33-8 with great team chemistry.
But I don't remember too many people in the FA thread saying, "do not preserve a max slot."
When the AD trade rumors fired up, I knew that we were going to lose ZO/BI.
My hope was that when we lucked into #4, that MAYBE we could offer less picks, etc.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ziggy
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 12714
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I get it hindsight is 20/20. Just pointing out there was a route to being better than we are now, and we missed out on it. Nothing to kill ourselves over though. We're still the 2nd best team in the league record wise. |
There will almost always be a "better way" when it's in hindsight. I don't think people were faulting the Lakers trading for AD AND preserving a max slot.
I do agree we had horrible intel on Kawhi and he strung us along like OJ did on the Bronco chase. You and I had Jimmy high on the list and I also wanted DLO if Jimmy wasn't available. |
People faulted the Lakers when they saw what the max slot turned into. Good plan, less than perfect execution. |
Indeed. It's amazing to me that we are 33-8 with great team chemistry.
But I don't remember too many people in the FA thread saying, "do not preserve a max slot."
When the AD trade rumors fired up, I knew that we were going to lose ZO/BI.
My hope was that when we lucked into #4, that MAYBE we could offer less picks, etc. |
The #4 probably saved us Kuz. Remember the original godfather offer had ALL of our youth, including Zu, plus future picks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
Lakers needed to get some sort of foundation. They were not negotiating at a position of strength. The Lakers had a time line, and would have probably ended up without a single all-star to support Lebron.
As good as Ingram has been, his numbers and value is no where near as good with Lebron. When Lebron was out, Kuzma had a game where he looked like an all-star. Ingram looks this good without Lebron because he has full free reign. The guys last year had less value in trade playing alongside Lebron than they would have playing without him. It is just how it is.
So you have to go with what is market value at the time, and the value of Ingram, Ball and co. was not what it is today. In fact in that time and now, only Ingram has raised his value. All the rest of the assets are about the same.
In the end wins and losses are what define a good trade from a bad one, not how many all-star teams the other guy makes or what numbers you have. ADs numbers are a bit down, yet he is playing on a 33-8 team. Our former players may have better numbers but are on a 16-26. The Lakers have 2 or max 3 years left in the Lebron era and they needed to make moves to get contending right away.
We are realistically a championship caliber team, something most doubted would ever happen in this era or in the Pelinka-Jeanie era. Instead of second guessing everything, we should start to appreciate how close this team is to winning it all. The little moves now are the most important. We need to keep trying to strengthen the teams bench and overall make up. We are really really close. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ziggy
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 12714
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Lakers needed to get some sort of foundation. They were not negotiating at a position of strength. The Lakers had a time line, and would have probably ended up without a single all-star to support Lebron.
As good as Ingram has been, his numbers and value is no where near as good with Lebron. When Lebron was out, Kuzma had a game where he looked like an all-star. Ingram looks this good without Lebron because he has full free reign. The guys last year had less value in trade playing alongside Lebron than they would have playing without him. It is just how it is.
So you have to go with what is market value at the time, and the value of Ingram, Ball and co. was not what it is today. In fact in that time and now, only Ingram has raised his value. All the rest of the assets are about the same.
In the end wins and losses are what define a good trade from a bad one, not how many all-star teams the other guy makes or what numbers you have. ADs numbers are a bit down, yet he is playing on a 33-8 team. Our former players may have better numbers but are on a 16-26. The Lakers have 2 or max 3 years left in the Lebron era and they needed to make moves to get contending right away.
We are realistically a championship caliber team, something most doubted would ever happen in this era or in the Pelinka-Jeanie era. Instead of second guessing everything, we should start to appreciate how close this team is to winning it all. The little moves now are the most important. We need to keep trying to strengthen the teams bench and overall make up. We are really really close. |
Good point about Lebron. BI increased his value in those weeks that Bron was out with the groin injury. He balled out. And the numbers showed he was much better when Lebron was out of the game, even when he was healthy.
The only people complaining are the ones who want to be the clear cut "winner" of the trade. I went to other nba forums after the trade and most polls had the winner of the trade being split down the middle 50/50 or slightly in favor of the Lakers. That tells you both teams got what they wanted out of the deal, which is a good deal imo.
Looking at it today, I think it still holds true. We're 1st in the west, the "yutes" are playing well in NO and they have Zion coming back soon. They're not a good team yet but they have future picks to build with. It's a win-win imo. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58344
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Yeah its a win win, but understand, even after he was hired, and even though Griffin was super high on Ingram and realized his potential, he wanted AD to stay. Meaning his first choice was to pair Zion and AD together ..... His second choice was this Lakers package. The #1 reason is winning. It will take a lot longer for that Pelicans team to win at a championship level, while the Lakers are already there at least in terms of competing for a title. In the end some have forgotten it is not about the name on the back of the jersey and them peaking and being great individually. It is about the name on the front of the jersey, being in contention for titles. Look at how much the Clips gave up for Paul George ..... why? They want to be in that same window the Lakers are. I think it's pretty much a title if we signed Kawhi like our plan A was. Which was what it looked like it was going to be. Kawhi didn't come, but we still end up contending. I think we have a legit 3 year window here, but we need by next offseason to get a 3rd star (or Kuzma needs to become consistently into one) as a Lebron decline will come. If Kawhi signs like he should have, that's likely 2 titles in 3 years for Kawhi, LBJ and AD. That was an amazing plan A we had, and I can not fault Lakers at all on this. They had a brilliant plan and executed it very well. You can not force players to make the decisions that guys like Kevin Durant made - because trust me - the Warriors would not have 3 titles had KD not signed there. Sometimes those things fall you way like KD did for them, but sometimes they don't like Kawhi with us. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigBoi
Star Player
Joined: 13 May 2012
Posts: 3115
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kikanga wrote: | It's possible NOP would've taken Kuz instead of Ingram.
But we didn't choose Kuz over Ingram. We chose Kuz AND max player cap space over Ingram. |
Bottom line is our brain dead front office chose Kuz over Ingram because everyone including a** clown screaming A smith said they should hold on to Kuz for dear life. BI had a blood clot health scare, they weren’t demanding him in the trade, they didn’t even offer him a max extension. If the Lakers valued him as they should, they could’ve kept him and still got AD it was possible. It would’ve have taken a lot of manoeuvring on their part but it could have been done.
They still had to do a lot of manoeuvring anyways and they got Washington to help in that regard, even they’ve made out like bandits with our young guys excelling over there.
Last edited by BigBoi on Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | It would’ve have taken a lot of manoeuvring on their part but it could have been done. |
Please tell us more. So your theory is Kuz (who you constantly trash)/Zo/4th would have been enough? If I'm Pels no thanks.
Maybe the Pels argued your points, that BI has a blood clot issue, so on...now give us more future 1st picks?
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigBoi
Star Player
Joined: 13 May 2012
Posts: 3115
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
I’m done telling you more. You act like you know the facts but you don’t. You stated your speculative opinion and I’ve stated mine. That’s all you get.
Also, people act like I’m constantly trashing Kuz. No Kuz constantly trashes himself with his trashy play and trashy games. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
drae
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2018
Posts: 16144
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Celtics offer without Tatum was better than our offer without Ingram.
Without Ingram we don't get AD. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LaLaLakeShow
Star Player
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 2989
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| drae wrote: | Celtics offer without Tatum was better than our offer without Ingram.
Without Ingram we don't get AD. |
That’s either true or it isn’t. Who knows?
_________________
Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PayasoLoco
Franchise Player
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 16663
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| anyone think Kuz hurt Caruso a bigger star than him in LA at the moment. Tries 1/100th times less on social media but impact on court and with fans is 100x that of kuz |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LaLaLakeShow
Star Player
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 2989
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PayasoLoco wrote: | | anyone think Kuz hurt Caruso a bigger star than him in LA at the moment. Tries 1/100th times less on social media but impact on court and with fans is 100x that of kuz |
These are professional athletes. Wouldn’t surprise me at all
_________________
Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hype
Star Player
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 4377
Location: Lake Nacimiento
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I would like to think it's blatantly obvious the only reason the Lakers beat out the Celtics deal or the Pels simply not making any deal at all is because of Ingram. I mean the Pelicans GM himself publicly praised Ingram a year or so before the trade happened so he was clearly a believer like most actual fans who watched all the games knew he was far and away the best prospect we had. Stephen A is purely for clicks and trolling like Skip, nobody besides the most casual of fans take anything they say as legitimate opinion or truth. He's the McDonalds of the Sports world, it's ok here and there but it's poison if you try to consume it on a regular basis.
Zero chance whatsoever the Pels take any deal without Ingram unless we landed the 1st or maybe 2nd overall pick but that wasn't the case. The only player that was probably switchable was Hart for Kuz. Be realistic and look at it from the Pels side of things. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Day
Star Player
Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 1732
Location: San Francisco, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Weird everyone acting like we could have kept BI, what we should be talking about is if we could have kept Zo - IF ANYTHING.
Zo is the perfect fit for this team in every aspect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
drae
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2018
Posts: 16144
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Day wrote: | Weird everyone acting like we could have kept BI, what we should be talking about is if we could have kept Zo - IF ANYTHING.
Zo is the perfect fit for this team in every aspect. |
They want Zo to feed Zion |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Day
Star Player
Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 1732
Location: San Francisco, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| drae wrote: | | Day wrote: | Weird everyone acting like we could have kept BI, what we should be talking about is if we could have kept Zo - IF ANYTHING.
Zo is the perfect fit for this team in every aspect. |
They want Zo to feed Zion |
I get that but going into the trade Lonzo's stock wasn't that high - arguably lower than Kuzma's. BI was going to be in the package no matter what, so it really comes down to Kuz Zo Hart. If we had Zo on this team, assuming he would have made the same progress, it would be amazing. Plus they already have Jrue, there could have been some wiggle room there for sure to keep Zo instead of Kuz. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29332
Location: La La Land
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Day wrote: | Weird everyone acting like we could have kept BI, what we should be talking about is if we could have kept Zo - IF ANYTHING.
Zo is the perfect fit for this team in every aspect. |
A guard who shoots 39% from the field isn't a perfect for any team. But sure, he could bring something to the table off the bench for us.
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't think we're having this discussion with better playmaking around Kuz..
I know he's been inconsistent, not making any excuses for him. But it's no secret that he needs good playmakers around him to optimize his value and production.
I'm not saying he'd be an all-star or anything like that but if we had a better orchestrator in the second unit we'd be seeing a better version of Kuz.
I think we fix the Kuz problem with an addition.. as oppose to getting rid of him for a piece that would actually benefit him more than anyone else on the roster. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
