OFFICIAL KYLE KUZMANIA THREAD (new shot form, p541; team USA, p551; clips, p560)
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Car54
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:12 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
DLaker wrote:
Kuz showed to be the best player that compliment Lebron's game. He does not need the ball in his hand to be effective. He moves without the ball very well and can catch and shoot because of his quick release.

He made strides even after having a sophomore slump on his 3pts shooting, by improving his scoring, FG%, FT% and Ast and he still have not reached his prime yet. If he would have shot the same 3pts% as his rookie season he would have avg 20 pts/gm.

Defensively both Ball and Bi looks superior to Kuz, but both need the ball in there hand to be effective, both cant seems to shoot Ft which to me is a big warning sign of how good a shooter they will become.

Getting to Keep Kuz should had made the Laker's fan happy, but seems like not all are.


I am fine that we kept Kuzma but for this team Hart would have made more sense.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Because of defense and position. We lack good defending guards who can run an offense. We have plenty of bigs who can’t defend.


Green, KCP, and Bradley can all defend at a high level... not worried about guard defense. Our biggest issue is that we only have one SF on this roster and I'd argue he might be best used as a PF at this point in his career.

Would have been great to keep Hart so that we could have given KCP's $8MM to get wing depth but apparently we're not really thinking that's a major issue because until Iggy got traded to Memphis, he was never in the running for a buyout (if he even is). RHJ was available for the minimum and would have given us a defensive presence we could have used.

Also would have been great to keep Hart just as an FU to NO but it is what it is. Hart doesn't change the outlook of our chances whatsoever given how things played out even if for those reasons I like him.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:39 pm    Post subject:

Don't mean to pile on VLF( who we should all be nicer to.... it's an internet forum)
He brings up an interesting argument. Josh vs Kuz.
I think a massive question mark without Kuz would be the nightly 3rd scoring XFactor.. you often need this guy. Without Kuz we'd be looking for Cousins to be that nightly.. I don't think he's that dependable.
Kuz has a chance to thrive with his off-ball style of play, frenetic in a way, next to AD and Bron, might feel like offense is coming from all angles for a D.
I'd rather have a 2017 Iggy than Kuz; that's a role we need desperately. I don't SG is a major need for us, and Hart ain't giving Harden problems (or bigger wings either)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:04 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Because of defense and position. We lack good defending guards who can run an offense. We have plenty of bigs who can’t defend.


Josh "let me foul a three point shooter every time" Hart? Did we watch the same player last year? Josh had some success in defending the post, but overall lacked any sort of defensive consistency and was a below-average perimeter defender - the thing that you need from a guy playing on the perimeter.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:50 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Don't mean to pile on VLF( who we should all be nicer to.... it's an internet forum)
He brings up an interesting argument. Josh vs Kuz.
I think a massive question mark without Kuz would be the nightly 3rd scoring XFactor.. you often need this guy. Without Kuz we'd be looking for Cousins to be that nightly.. I don't think he's that dependable.
Kuz has a chance to thrive with his off-ball style of play, frenetic in a way, next to AD and Bron, might feel like offense is coming from all angles for a D.
I'd rather have a 2017 Iggy than Kuz; that's a role we need desperately. I don't SG is a major need for us, and Hart ain't giving Harden problems (or bigger wings either)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:27 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Because of defense and position. We lack good defending guards who can run an offense. We have plenty of bigs who can’t defend.


People's opinion on that will vary depending on what they think Kuz and Hart can become rather than what they've been so far. Both of them had disappointing second seasons.

To me, both of them have yet to prove they can be an anything special NBA player. So I think its reasonable to lay your bet based on your guess of their potential and upside rather than on how they fit into the teams current configuration.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:41 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Because of defense and position. We lack good defending guards who can run an offense. We have plenty of bigs who can’t defend.


People's opinion on that will vary depending on what they think Kuz and Hart can become rather than what they've been so far. Both of them had disappointing second seasons.

To me, both of them have yet to prove they can be an anything special NBA player. So I think its reasonable to lay your bet based on your guess of their potential and upside rather than on how they fit into the teams current configuration.


Typically players who have great rookie years seem to have less impressive 2nd years and then figure it out in their 3rd year. See: Donovan Mitchell, Ben Simmons, etc.. We will see if it's the case very soon.

I thought 23 points against the 76ers in the first quarter was pretty impressive.

Also scoring 41 in 3 quarters vs the Pistons shows me he is special as a NBA player.. He shot 16-of-24 from the field and 5-of-10 on 3-pointers. His entire repertoire was on display, as he scored off the dribble, on spot-ups, in transition, off screens and more. Only a few people did it last year. I mean, Kyle Kuzma's 41 points are the most by a Laker in fewer than 30 minutes played in the shot clock era (since 1954-55).

Lastly, I like how he has worked with Lethalshooter on his shooting, Metta, Carmelo, Donovan Mitchell, and worked out with Desean Stevenson + trainer on his explosiveness.

How can you say he hasn't shown ANYTHING to be special?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:00 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Because of defense and position. We lack good defending guards who can run an offense. We have plenty of bigs who can’t defend.


People's opinion on that will vary depending on what they think Kuz and Hart can become rather than what they've been so far. Both of them had disappointing second seasons.

To me, both of them have yet to prove they can be an anything special NBA player. So I think its reasonable to lay your bet based on your guess of their potential and upside rather than on how they fit into the teams current configuration.


I think that what they are is what they will be. They might add a wrinkle or two but at 24, the window is close. I have always liked Hart’s IQ and he is a proven winner. But if I am NO and trading AD, I would want Hart included.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject:

Super Mega Team wrote:

Typically players who have great rookie years seem to have less impressive 2nd years and then figure it out in their 3rd year. See: Donovan Mitchell, Ben Simmons, etc.. We will see if it's the case very soon.




I know it's common for people to make sweeping generalization based on an example of two players followed by "etc."

I can think of lots of players who had impressive rookie seasons that didn't fall into your pattern.

But the weird thing about your post is that the two guys you give as examples don't even fit into your pattern.

I don't think Mitchell's and Simmon's second season was less impressive than the first. Neither has played a third season, so it's literally impossible for them to be examples of guys who figured it out in their third season.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:06 am    Post subject:

Kuzma's most essential contribution this year might be guarding the bigger SFs. There is no one there to give Lebron a rest.
KCP can handle the smaller and faster SFs.

Picking up a defensive SF will be the best thing the Lakers can do to extend Lebrons career.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:16 am    Post subject:

laker50 wrote:
Kuzma's most essential contribution this year might be guarding the bigger SFs. There is no one there to give Lebron a rest.
KCP can handle the smaller and faster SFs.

Picking up a defensive SF will be the best thing the Lakers can do to extend Lebrons career.


I can understand how you might think we need a defensive SF, but I don't see how this will affect Lebron's rest or extend his career.

Whether we add someone or don't, Lebron is going to play his regular minutes and get his regular rest. The only difference would be how good our defense is when he's sitting.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:52 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Super Mega Team wrote:

Typically players who have great rookie years seem to have less impressive 2nd years and then figure it out in their 3rd year. See: Donovan Mitchell, Ben Simmons, etc.. We will see if it's the case very soon.




I know it's common for people to make sweeping generalization based on an example of two players followed by "etc."

I can think of lots of players who had impressive rookie seasons that didn't fall into your pattern.

But the weird thing about your post is that the two guys you give as examples don't even fit into your pattern.

I don't think Mitchell's and Simmon's second season was less impressive than the first. Neither has played a third season, so it's literally impossible for them to be examples of guys who figured it out in their third season.


I listed two players for brevity. Nothing more.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:27 pm    Post subject:

Super Mega Team wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Super Mega Team wrote:

Typically players who have great rookie years seem to have less impressive 2nd years and then figure it out in their 3rd year. See: Donovan Mitchell, Ben Simmons, etc.. We will see if it's the case very soon.




I know it's common for people to make sweeping generalization based on an example of two players followed by "etc."

I can think of lots of players who had impressive rookie seasons that didn't fall into your pattern.

But the weird thing about your post is that the two guys you give as examples don't even fit into your pattern.

I don't think Mitchell's and Simmon's second season was less impressive than the first. Neither has played a third season, so it's literally impossible for them to be examples of guys who figured it out in their third season.


I listed two players for brevity. Nothing more.



Yeah, but the two players you listed don't support your theory.

Bottom line: I don't think there is a common pattern that players who had a good rookie season typically have a lesser second season and then rebound in the third.

Sure, it happens with some guys, but it's no more common than other permutations.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:07 pm    Post subject:

Stats aside, I thought Kuz was the slightly better talent of the trio (BI Zo and Kuz). I can't put my finger on the why...just watching how he played I got the feeling that Kuz was the one worth keeping.

Zo? I couldn't get past his shot. I don't care how many times I've read how he would nail it in practice, but during a game, nobody respected his shot, and Zo didn't give a reason for his opponent to respect his shot.

BI seemed steady when healthy. My frustration with BI was his tendency to go ISO mode, and when fouled, not converting at the charity line. I felt he wasn't even looking for the open man sometimes. I would imagine BI had carte blanche to go solo by the coaching staff, so I don't blame him per se. I've been conditioned to view Duke players as individuals that play within the team.

Hart was a pleasant surprise. I'm ashamed to admit that I never heard of him until he became a Laker. He is a smart defender. Most underrated of the 4 youngsters.

Kuz seemed to posses the most pluck of the bunch. That kind of spirited determination is something one cannot coach or teach a player. Either you have it, or you don't. Kuz has the confidence and skill set and he isn't afraid to use it. Kuz was given some impossible tasks if you ask me. But he took them on (playing center). I hope he becomes what I think, and he believes he's capable of becoming...a star player in the league. If you don't believe you're star, you'll never become one. He believes he can be a star among two of the greatest stars in the NBA. Call it ego, call it wishful thinking, call it whatever you want...at least he believes it. Let's hope he can deliver on his beliefs.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:28 pm    Post subject:

I mean I'm not gonna lie, I always thought Ball and Ingram were better talents because of what they could become one day, both showed flashes but ultimately not enough.

What was always clear was that Kuzma was by far the best off ball scorer out of the three, and probably the best scorer overall on the nights he has it going. I wanted him as a 6th man then and nothing has changed for me since, I think he fits perfectly as lou williams type of 6th man.

Everything changes if he becomes an average defender and a very good three point shooter and demonstrates it throughout this season and playoffs. At that point, if Kuzma really is the talent that he thinks he can be then AD will have to move to C.

AD/Kuzma/Lebron/Shooter/Shooter is a line up that can be lethal throughout Lebron's decline. He'll have AD as a top 5 player in the league, and Kyle Kuzma who can be our poor mans Klay Thompson. Add two shooters, and I'll take that for the next 3-5 years depending on Lebron.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:11 pm    Post subject:

Tick wrote:
Kuz seemed to posses the most pluck of the bunch. That kind of spirited determination is something one cannot coach or teach a player. Either you have it, or you don't. Kuz has the confidence and skill set and he isn't afraid to use it. Kuz was given some impossible tasks if you ask me. But he took them on (playing center).


Pluck will only take you so far. Sure, he played center in a small ball lineup ... and the defense was about as horrendous as defense can be.

So I am not sure if he has "determination" or if he's just (bleep). We know he can score, although not always with much efficiency. The question is whether he will dedicate himself to improving his rebounding, defense, and parts of his game that aren't fun like scoring.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject:

Tick wrote:
Stats aside, I thought Kuz was the slightly better talent of the trio (BI Zo and Kuz). I can't put my finger on the why...just watching how he played I got the feeling that Kuz was the one worth keeping.

Zo? I couldn't get past his shot. I don't care how many times I've read how he would nail it in practice, but during a game, nobody respected his shot, and Zo didn't give a reason for his opponent to respect his shot.

BI seemed steady when healthy. My frustration with BI was his tendency to go ISO mode, and when fouled, not converting at the charity line. I felt he wasn't even looking for the open man sometimes. I would imagine BI had carte blanche to go solo by the coaching staff, so I don't blame him per se. I've been conditioned to view Duke players as individuals that play within the team.

Hart was a pleasant surprise. I'm ashamed to admit that I never heard of him until he became a Laker. He is a smart defender. Most underrated of the 4 youngsters.

Kuz seemed to posses the most pluck of the bunch. That kind of spirited determination is something one cannot coach or teach a player. Either you have it, or you don't. Kuz has the confidence and skill set and he isn't afraid to use it. Kuz was given some impossible tasks if you ask me. But he took them on (playing center). I hope he becomes what I think, and he believes he's capable of becoming...a star player in the league. If you don't believe you're star, you'll never become one. He believes he can be a star among two of the greatest stars in the NBA. Call it ego, call it wishful thinking, call it whatever you want...at least he believes it. Let's hope he can deliver on his beliefs.


Did you just say BI wasn’t looking for open guys? He had a lower usage than Kuz but a higher assist percentage. Kuz is the guy who rarely looks for open players.

You also say Kuz was given impossible tasks like playing center but even that was a very limited sample. Never mind Bi was played out of position the large portion of the season and was asked to change his game more than any other player on the team over the last two years. He was also the one who rose to the challenge when trade rumors came out. From Walton’s own admission the trade rumors effected Kuz the most. What’s going to happen when the same thing happens this year and his name comes up for better guard play?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:45 pm    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
Tick wrote:
Stats aside, I thought Kuz was the slightly better talent of the trio (BI Zo and Kuz). I can't put my finger on the why...just watching how he played I got the feeling that Kuz was the one worth keeping.

Zo? I couldn't get past his shot. I don't care how many times I've read how he would nail it in practice, but during a game, nobody respected his shot, and Zo didn't give a reason for his opponent to respect his shot.

BI seemed steady when healthy. My frustration with BI was his tendency to go ISO mode, and when fouled, not converting at the charity line. I felt he wasn't even looking for the open man sometimes. I would imagine BI had carte blanche to go solo by the coaching staff, so I don't blame him per se. I've been conditioned to view Duke players as individuals that play within the team.

Hart was a pleasant surprise. I'm ashamed to admit that I never heard of him until he became a Laker. He is a smart defender. Most underrated of the 4 youngsters.

Kuz seemed to posses the most pluck of the bunch. That kind of spirited determination is something one cannot coach or teach a player. Either you have it, or you don't. Kuz has the confidence and skill set and he isn't afraid to use it. Kuz was given some impossible tasks if you ask me. But he took them on (playing center). I hope he becomes what I think, and he believes he's capable of becoming...a star player in the league. If you don't believe you're star, you'll never become one. He believes he can be a star among two of the greatest stars in the NBA. Call it ego, call it wishful thinking, call it whatever you want...at least he believes it. Let's hope he can deliver on his beliefs.


Did you just say BI wasn’t looking for open guys? He had a lower usage than Kuz but a higher assist percentage. Kuz is the guy who rarely looks for open players.

You also say Kuz was given impossible tasks like playing center but even that was a very limited sample. Never mind Bi was played out of position the large portion of the season and was asked to change his game more than any other player on the team over the last two years. He was also the one who rose to the challenge when trade rumors came out. From Walton’s own admission the trade rumors effected Kuz the most. What’s going to happen when the same thing happens this year and his name comes up for better guard play?



At this point, it seems pointless to look for signs about whether BI or Kuz has a bigger heart, or more determination, or more whatever.

BI is gone and Kuz is here. We made our bet.

A few years down the line, we'll know whether it was a good bet or a bad bet.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:13 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
DLaker wrote:
Kuz showed to be the best player that compliment Lebron's game. He does not need the ball in his hand to be effective. He moves without the ball very well and can catch and shoot because of his quick release.

He made strides even after having a sophomore slump on his 3pts shooting, by improving his scoring, FG%, FT% and Ast and he still have not reached his prime yet. If he would have shot the same 3pts% as his rookie season he would have avg 20 pts/gm.

Defensively both Ball and Bi looks superior to Kuz, but both need the ball in there hand to be effective, both cant seems to shoot Ft which to me is a big warning sign of how good a shooter they will become.

Getting to Keep Kuz should had made the Laker's fan happy, but seems like not all are.


I am fine that we kept Kuzma but for this team Hart would have made more sense.


We? You speaking French now? You’re a clippers pelicans fan


Haha, not long ago this kid was advocating trading away our young core for marginal players so we could squeak into the playoffs. Now that we've traded them for arguably a top 5-10 player, he is suddenly interested in the Pelicans. That's some masterclass trolling right there.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:26 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
At this point, it seems pointless to look for signs about whether BI or Kuz has a bigger heart, or more determination, or more whatever.

BI is gone and Kuz is here. We made our bet.

A few years down the line, we'll know whether it was a good bet or a bad bet.


The salary difference between Kuz in the AD trade vs. BI in the AD trade went to KCP's new contract. It's a shame we didn't get a max player. Then I wouldn't even entertain the conversation. But we didn't.
If we kept BI, LBJ could coast on defense all season long with 2 longbois in the starting lineup with him. Oh well. Like you said, we made our bet.
And if Kuz shoots high 30%s from 3 off the bench, we'll be fine anyways.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:06 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Because of defense and position. We lack good defending guards who can run an offense. We have plenty of bigs who can’t defend.


People's opinion on that will vary depending on what they think Kuz and Hart can become rather than what they've been so far. Both of them had disappointing second seasons.

To me, both of them have yet to prove they can be an anything special NBA player. So I think its reasonable to lay your bet based on your guess of their potential and upside rather than on how they fit into the teams current configuration.


Hart on defense is best as an undersized PF. His perimeter defense last year was pretty atrocious. His shooting came and went too. Granted, he was injured a lot but I don't think he is a "perimeter stopper" by any means or a 3/D guy.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:26 am    Post subject:

I think out of Kuz/Lonzo/BI,

1. Lonzo will have the most all star appearances and be a cog to a playoff team.

2. BI has the chance to make a few all star appearances, but that's not a guarantee for me.

3. Kuz, I doubt he will make an all star game, but he will fit in well as an off ball cutter on this team. The real test will come when he is eligible for an extension. Right now he's making under 2m so of course he's found money. But if he wants 18-20m/year, things and perceptions about him can change real quickly.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:59 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I think out of Kuz/Lonzo/BI,

1. Lonzo will have the most all star appearances and be a cog to a playoff team.

2. BI has the chance to make a few all star appearances, but that's not a guarantee for me.

3. Kuz, I doubt he will make an all star game, but he will fit in well as an off ball cutter on this team. The real test will come when he is eligible for an extension. Right now he's making under 2m so of course he's found money. But if he wants 18-20m/year, things and perceptions about him can change real quickly.


I think it's BI who will make the most all star games, Lonzo who will get a couple (maybe) and Kuz will probably sneak into a couple as well.

Either way, none are anywhere near the caliber of young players that Luka, Jokic, Embiid, Mitchell, Fox, and Young seem to be. Hell Ayton, Tatum, JJJ, Booker, Russell, etc seem to be much more likely all stars.

Kuz would look nice between AD and Giannis though
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:04 am    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think out of Kuz/Lonzo/BI,

1. Lonzo will have the most all star appearances and be a cog to a playoff team.

2. BI has the chance to make a few all star appearances, but that's not a guarantee for me.

3. Kuz, I doubt he will make an all star game, but he will fit in well as an off ball cutter on this team. The real test will come when he is eligible for an extension. Right now he's making under 2m so of course he's found money. But if he wants 18-20m/year, things and perceptions about him can change real quickly.


I think it's BI who will make the most all star games, Lonzo who will get a couple (maybe) and Kuz will probably sneak into a couple as well.

Either way, none are anywhere near the caliber of young players that Luka, Jokic, Embiid, Mitchell, Fox, and Young seem to be. Hell Ayton, Tatum, JJJ, Booker, Russell, etc seem to be much more likely all stars.

Kuz would look nice between AD and Giannis though


I just feel that BI doesn't "sell" himself in the way that you need to get into an all star game.

Even when he was on the Lakers with Zo/Kuz, he never got the fan votes that propelled Kuz/Lonzo inexplicably (or actually predictably) into top 10 fan vote-wise.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:53 am    Post subject:

Can't believe Kuz is getting such a low ceiling here. He should make the USA Basketball roster and gain that much more experience from BI and Zo.

F Barnes, Brown, Kuz, Middleton, Tatum, Tucker

G Fox, Harris, Mitchell, Smart, Walker, White

C Lopez, Plumlee, Turner

Kuz seemed to be focus on being great and making a name in the NBA.
Looks like he is in great shape and shot looking good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AMJafWsLh4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBqf6gaS4gs

BI 3 yrs in still look like a stick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwL77B-oBQw
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=brandon+ingram&sp=CAI%253D

Zo just does not seem serious to me to be great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_GclMmsoyU&t=86s


Last edited by DLaker on Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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