OFFICIAL KYLE KUZMA'S HAIR THREAD
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:28 pm    Post subject:

The God Particle wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
One of the more frustrating players to watch in recent years for me. He has talent. He just does not have IQ. Sometimes it looks like he does not have the desire.


It seems like he is more interested in proving himself individually to get a big contract than he is being a role player for a championship level team. Might be happier putting up big numbers for a scrub team.



Since he is on a relatively small contract, thoughts about making sure his next contract is big could be heavily influencing him. If so, the distraction could become even worse until he actually get the new contract.


Don’t see this at all. He’s a rhythm offensive player that barely takes shots.

It’s more like square peg round hole syndrome.




Is he going to get enough shots to find his rhythm on this team next season?



He's in the top 1/4 of the NBA in shots per 36. What's he need, Giannis' and Harden's usage?

Kuzma IS getting his opportunity to find his rhythm. It's us who are fooled by his production in summer league and the first half of his rookie year (something he was never before nor since).


This is the problem with most of the discussion in here. It is generally limited to “this goooood ... gimme MORE” or “this baaaaddd ... gimme LESS”.

Sometimes it’s not a volume problem.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:21 pm    Post subject:

While I really like Hart and really wish we could've retained him somehow, I'm seeing weight in the argument that other 2's (recent Bradley, Green, Caruso, KCP) are providing what Hart would've provided on this team viz. decent 3 shooting, team defense, hustle, grit, heady play.
It doesn't seem to me that Hart would change the balance of power vs Clippers/Milwaukee/Toronto/Celtics (i.e. plug the holes we have). Thus this Hart vs Kuzma talk seems to be a red herring. The valid question is whether Kuzma is the right 3/4 for this current team and if he isn't what could we have done/can do (either as part of the deal, or after) to get the player we need.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:27 pm    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
cencio_999 wrote:
He is living up to the hype of being selected with the 27th pick after 3 years in college

why do people keep bringing up his draft position/salary as an excuse? We are way beyond that at this point. He wants to play the part of a top player for this team and the team has valued him as that which is why we kept him. So far he has played well below the trajectory we hoped. If wants to be just held to the standard of just the typical late round player 3 years in, he would have been trade fodder to some small market team already.


I'm not excusing him.

I'm just saying that this year he's looking much less the steal of the draft he seemed in his rookie and sophomore years.

Currently he is in the jordan clarkson trajectory.

Yeah I know he's a better rebounder, but jordan is a better ball handler, so they are pretty much even to me.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:10 pm    Post subject:

PayasoLoco wrote:
Amber rose only played 13 minutes... that’s about right for him



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:01 pm    Post subject:

he is now a model for abercrombie
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:25 pm    Post subject:

The God Particle wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
One of the more frustrating players to watch in recent years for me. He has talent. He just does not have IQ. Sometimes it looks like he does not have the desire.


It seems like he is more interested in proving himself individually to get a big contract than he is being a role player for a championship level team. Might be happier putting up big numbers for a scrub team.



Since he is on a relatively small contract, thoughts about making sure his next contract is big could be heavily influencing him. If so, the distraction could become even worse until he actually get the new contract.


Don’t see this at all. He’s a rhythm offensive player that barely takes shots.

It’s more like square peg round hole syndrome.




Is he going to get enough shots to find his rhythm on this team next season?



He's in the top 1/4 of the NBA in shots per 36. What's he need, Giannis' and Harden's usage?

Kuzma IS getting his opportunity to find his rhythm. It's us who are fooled by his production in summer league and the first half of his rookie year (something he was never before nor since).


He's averaged 20, 5.7 and 2.3 as a starter. Last year he was 18.7 and 5.5 as a starter alongside Bron so his 20ppg in 6 games this year is clearly not an aberration.

We're 5-1 in games where Kuz started this year including wins against Dallas, Houston and of course OKC where he did it without AD and Bron. When given the chance to contribute offensively, he's shown that he can impact the game and contribute to wins.

Lou Williams and Clarkson are at 28.00 and 25.5 usage respectively as reserves. Kuz is at 22.00 usage off the bench. Can't expect him to have similar production as those guys if he's not being used the same way.

BTW Terrence Ross, a 6th man type player in the mold of Lou Will and JC, who many posters here wanted over Danny Green including VLF if I remember correctly, is averaging just 13.4ppg 3rpg 1apg while shooting 32% from three and 38% from the field overall. Everyone knows Kuz is struggling in his role this year and he's at 12.6ppg 4.4rpg 1.3apg. Ross is also making 12.5 million this season.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:04 am    Post subject:

scout0_0 wrote:
I think having lebron / vogel looking over his shoulder is causing him to over think. There is no explanation for his downgrade in IQ. This guy travels at least once every single game when attacking the close out. Picks up his dribble right next to the side lines. Always fouls people by putting his hands on their hips. Takes dumb shots.. what is going on kuzma???? I was a big fan but idk what is going on. I don't think he is happy coming off the bench.

Kuz can't get out of his own head he's over thinking everything.Kuzma played better as a rookie than he's playing now.Can he get it together? Who knows it's possible.KCP certainly did.KCP went from a laughing stock to a reliable and consistent player.So there is some hope. Come on Kuz your better than this.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:13 am    Post subject:

3baller wrote:
The God Particle wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
One of the more frustrating players to watch in recent years for me. He has talent. He just does not have IQ. Sometimes it looks like he does not have the desire.


It seems like he is more interested in proving himself individually to get a big contract than he is being a role player for a championship level team. Might be happier putting up big numbers for a scrub team.



Since he is on a relatively small contract, thoughts about making sure his next contract is big could be heavily influencing him. If so, the distraction could become even worse until he actually get the new contract.


Don’t see this at all. He’s a rhythm offensive player that barely takes shots.

It’s more like square peg round hole syndrome.




Is he going to get enough shots to find his rhythm on this team next season?



He's in the top 1/4 of the NBA in shots per 36. What's he need, Giannis' and Harden's usage?

Kuzma IS getting his opportunity to find his rhythm. It's us who are fooled by his production in summer league and the first half of his rookie year (something he was never before nor since).


He's averaged 20, 5.7 and 2.3 as a starter. Last year he was 18.7 and 5.5 as a starter alongside Bron so his 20ppg in 6 games this year is clearly not an aberration.

We're 5-1 in games where Kuz started this year including wins against Dallas, Houston and of course OKC where he did it without AD and Bron. When given the chance to contribute offensively, he's shown that he can impact the game and contribute to wins.

Lou Williams and Clarkson are at 28.00 and 25.5 usage respectively as reserves. Kuz is at 22.00 usage off the bench. Can't expect him to have similar production as those guys if he's not being used the same way.

BTW Terrence Ross, a 6th man type player in the mold of Lou Will and JC, who many posters here wanted over Danny Green including VLF if I remember correctly, is averaging just 13.4ppg 3rpg 1apg while shooting 32% from three and 38% from the field overall. Everyone knows Kuz is struggling in his role this year and he's at 12.6ppg 4.4rpg 1.3apg. Ross is also making 12.5 million this season.


That's the issue though. Where is his role if he starts? AD/LBJ basically play his best positions so he's struggling off the bench.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:36 am    Post subject:

ShowtimeReturns wrote:
scout0_0 wrote:
I think having lebron / vogel looking over his shoulder is causing him to over think. There is no explanation for his downgrade in IQ. This guy travels at least once every single game when attacking the close out. Picks up his dribble right next to the side lines. Always fouls people by putting his hands on their hips. Takes dumb shots.. what is going on kuzma???? I was a big fan but idk what is going on. I don't think he is happy coming off the bench.

Kuz can't get out of his own head he's over thinking everything.Kuzma played better as a rookie than he's playing now.Can he get it together? Who knows it's possible.KCP certainly did.KCP went from a laughing stock to a reliable and consistent player.So there is some hope. Come on Kuz your better than this.


No he’s always been like this. He just had Lonzo and Ingram covering up his weaknesses in addition to the fact that he had been playing on bad teams with leeway to do whatever he wanted in the court.

But Kuz was always a low IQ player that would go 1 on 4 on fast breaks instead of passing the ball to a teammate that’s ahead of the break for example. He had always done dumb (bleep) in the court, now he just sticks out like a sore thumb because he’s playing with other high IQ veteran players.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:58 am    Post subject:

The context people are missing, is that Kuzma’s primary asset is scoring, is struggling to do so to a degree not many expected, and is still #2 in the league in scoring in the same or fewer minutes and joins Lebron as the only common players in all 3 of our top 3 lineups in net rating.

One of the least efficient shots in his arsenal is the 2pt dribble pull up, and the shares of shots he takes that are of that type has doubled.

He’s being misused.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:06 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
The context people are missing, is that Kuzma’s primary asset is scoring, is struggling to do so to a degree not many expected, and is still #2 in the league in scoring in the same or fewer minutes and joins Lebron as the only common players in all 3 of our top 3 lineups in net rating.

One of the least efficient shots in his arsenal is the 2pt dribble pull up, and the shares of shots he takes that are of that type has doubled.

He’s being misused.

So he’s only useful when he has a green light to chuck? Doesn’t sound like a championship caliber player and more like a Sacramento king type of player.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:09 pm    Post subject:

Ship his ass out.

Amber Rose looking third string whatever position he plays-player.

We got rid of Randle, Ball, Ingram, and Hart, but kept this guy.

Sure.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:20 pm    Post subject:

He's a Laker until at least the off-season so I will only wish him the very best. Interestingly, if he does well, we not only win games now, we also win if/when we trade him by virtue of his increased value.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:20 pm    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
Ship his ass out.

Amber Rose looking third string whatever position he plays-player.

We got rid of Randle, Ball, Ingram, and Hart, but kept this guy.

Sure.


So waive him, correct? Or no?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:21 pm    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
Ship his ass out.

Amber Rose looking third string whatever position he plays-player.

We got rid of Randle, Ball, Ingram, and Hart, but kept this guy.

Sure.


How Kuzma does in the playoffs will likely determine what happens in the off season but let me tell you guys once he gets traded he’s gonna become the player we all expected him to be.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:26 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
GTL wrote:
Ship his ass out.

Amber Rose looking third string whatever position he plays-player.

We got rid of Randle, Ball, Ingram, and Hart, but kept this guy.

Sure.


So waive him, correct? Or no?


No I don't think waiving him does much, his contract is peanuts. But at the same time, he hasn't shown to be much benefit to the team either.

He doesn't seem to fit well with this squad. He's not a spot up shooter. He isn't a good backcourt mate with LeBron since he's more of a creator himself, but his inconsistencies are more of a liability then asset if we're talking about actually competing on a championship level.

Just doesn't strike me as a player whose ready to grab that brass ring.

Not to same extent as LeBron, a proven champion, AD, a guy who seems to want to reach that level, Green, a champion, and our other scrappers who play with more fire then Amber does on any given night.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:29 pm    Post subject:

PayasoLoco wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
The context people are missing, is that Kuzma’s primary asset is scoring, is struggling to do so to a degree not many expected, and is still #2 in the league in scoring in the same or fewer minutes and joins Lebron as the only common players in all 3 of our top 3 lineups in net rating.

One of the least efficient shots in his arsenal is the 2pt dribble pull up, and the shares of shots he takes that are of that type has doubled.

He’s being misused.

So he’s only useful when he has a green light to chuck? Doesn’t sound like a championship caliber player and more like a Sacramento king type of player.


No. We gotta get out of this binary thinking.

Let me try a different way. There is a player who is available to the Lakers, and he shoots 52% from the 3pt corners, and finishes at the basket at a rate of 70% which is halfway between Lebron and AD.

However, on dribble pull ups, this player only shoots 34%.

Would you give THIS player the green light to chuck for us?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:29 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
GTL wrote:
Ship his ass out.

Amber Rose looking third string whatever position he plays-player.

We got rid of Randle, Ball, Ingram, and Hart, but kept this guy.

Sure.


How Kuzma does in the playoffs will likely determine what happens in the off season but let me tell you guys once he gets traded he’s gonna become the player we all expected him to be.


I see him as the exception to that rule. He might be decent on a poor team like Atlanta, but when Lou Williams can average 20 points off the bench at 33 years old in his 15th season, that isn't saying much.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:33 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
PayasoLoco wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
The context people are missing, is that Kuzma’s primary asset is scoring, is struggling to do so to a degree not many expected, and is still #2 in the league in scoring in the same or fewer minutes and joins Lebron as the only common players in all 3 of our top 3 lineups in net rating.

One of the least efficient shots in his arsenal is the 2pt dribble pull up, and the shares of shots he takes that are of that type has doubled.

He’s being misused.

So he’s only useful when he has a green light to chuck? Doesn’t sound like a championship caliber player and more like a Sacramento king type of player.


No. We gotta get out of this binary thinking.

Let me try a different way. There is a player who is available to the Lakers, and he shoots 52% from the 3pt corners, and finishes at the basket at a rate of 70% which is halfway between Lebron and AD.

However, on dribble pull ups, this player only shoots 34%.

Would you give THIS player the green light to chuck for us?


Overall he shoots 43% from the field, 33% from 3, averaging 12 points in 24 minutes of play.

Kareem Rush had similar numbers in his career.

Why is this that impressive to you guys that he's suddenly untouchable?

He's never been as talented as Brandon Ingram or Julius Randle.

I just don't see it. Maybe I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting to that if I am.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:08 pm    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
PayasoLoco wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
The context people are missing, is that Kuzma’s primary asset is scoring, is struggling to do so to a degree not many expected, and is still #2 in the league in scoring in the same or fewer minutes and joins Lebron as the only common players in all 3 of our top 3 lineups in net rating.

One of the least efficient shots in his arsenal is the 2pt dribble pull up, and the shares of shots he takes that are of that type has doubled.

He’s being misused.

So he’s only useful when he has a green light to chuck? Doesn’t sound like a championship caliber player and more like a Sacramento king type of player.


No. We gotta get out of this binary thinking.

Let me try a different way. There is a player who is available to the Lakers, and he shoots 52% from the 3pt corners, and finishes at the basket at a rate of 70% which is halfway between Lebron and AD.

However, on dribble pull ups, this player only shoots 34%.

Would you give THIS player the green light to chuck for us?


Overall he shoots 43% from the field, 33% from 3, averaging 12 points in 24 minutes of play.

Kareem Rush had similar numbers in his career.

Why is this that impressive to you guys that he's suddenly untouchable?

He's never been as talented as Brandon Ingram or Julius Randle.

I just don't see it. Maybe I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting to that if I am.


Do you think if we made Danny Green our primary ball handler, and he ended up sucking at it, that posting his numbers as a primary ball handler would be an accurate reflection of how he could optimally contribute for this team?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:11 pm    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
He's a Laker until at least the off-season so I will only wish him the very best. Interestingly, if he does well, we not only win games now, we also win if/when we trade him by virtue of his increased value.


His value will likely decrease because whoever trades for him will have to decide if they want to pay him after one season.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:12 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
GTL wrote:
Ship his ass out.

Amber Rose looking third string whatever position he plays-player.

We got rid of Randle, Ball, Ingram, and Hart, but kept this guy.

Sure.


How Kuzma does in the playoffs will likely determine what happens in the off season but let me tell you guys once he gets traded he’s gonna become the player we all expected him to be.


He is better than the player I expected him to be.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:27 pm    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
PayasoLoco wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
The context people are missing, is that Kuzma’s primary asset is scoring, is struggling to do so to a degree not many expected, and is still #2 in the league in scoring in the same or fewer minutes and joins Lebron as the only common players in all 3 of our top 3 lineups in net rating.

One of the least efficient shots in his arsenal is the 2pt dribble pull up, and the shares of shots he takes that are of that type has doubled.

He’s being misused.

So he’s only useful when he has a green light to chuck? Doesn’t sound like a championship caliber player and more like a Sacramento king type of player.


No. We gotta get out of this binary thinking.

Let me try a different way. There is a player who is available to the Lakers, and he shoots 52% from the 3pt corners, and finishes at the basket at a rate of 70% which is halfway between Lebron and AD.

However, on dribble pull ups, this player only shoots 34%.

Would you give THIS player the green light to chuck for us?


Overall he shoots 43% from the field, 33% from 3, averaging 12 points in 24 minutes of play.

Kareem Rush had similar numbers in his career.

Why is this that impressive to you guys that he's suddenly untouchable?

He's never been as talented as Brandon Ingram or Julius Randle.

I just don't see it. Maybe I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting to that if I am.


I'm with you 100%.. I always thought Ingram had all star potential, even early on he had flashes of brilliance it's just that now it's consistent since he's got some experience. There's a reason most of our other guys that have went on to flourish were high lottery picks while Kuzma is a much later pick.

Kuzma is only slightly better then his rookie year imo and while he's still somewhat young he's turning 25 this year so what you see is what you get with him at this point with maybe some slight improvements. He just simply does not have that great feel for the game, high iq or consistent hustle to match his talent. Basically the things you can't teach...

I think with some more work he can be a very solid role player but I just don't see him being a legit consistent star at any point. He'll have his occasional hot shooting nights or stretches where he seems engaged and impacts the game but then ghost for a bit before returning again at some point. It's a roller coaster ride that's been up and down since he came into the league. People just keep waiting for him to become a consistent 3 point threat which he's never been his entire life not even high school or college.

I have a feeling he's going to get some big offers from other teams so i'd do whatever I could to trade him in the off season honestly so we don't lose him for nothing in the end. Hopefully there's something better then what could be had at this years deadline because I agreed he wasn't worth trading for any of the bigger trade proposals I saw floating around.

I'd love nothing more then to see him put it all together and play lights out for the rest of the season and into the Playoffs giving us that extra push we need to beat out the other contenders but I just personally see that happening occasionally and not consistently.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:31 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
GTL wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
PayasoLoco wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
The context people are missing, is that Kuzma’s primary asset is scoring, is struggling to do so to a degree not many expected, and is still #2 in the league in scoring in the same or fewer minutes and joins Lebron as the only common players in all 3 of our top 3 lineups in net rating.

One of the least efficient shots in his arsenal is the 2pt dribble pull up, and the shares of shots he takes that are of that type has doubled.

He’s being misused.

So he’s only useful when he has a green light to chuck? Doesn’t sound like a championship caliber player and more like a Sacramento king type of player.


No. We gotta get out of this binary thinking.

Let me try a different way. There is a player who is available to the Lakers, and he shoots 52% from the 3pt corners, and finishes at the basket at a rate of 70% which is halfway between Lebron and AD.

However, on dribble pull ups, this player only shoots 34%.

Would you give THIS player the green light to chuck for us?


Overall he shoots 43% from the field, 33% from 3, averaging 12 points in 24 minutes of play.

Kareem Rush had similar numbers in his career.

Why is this that impressive to you guys that he's suddenly untouchable?

He's never been as talented as Brandon Ingram or Julius Randle.

I just don't see it. Maybe I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting to that if I am.


Do you think if we made Danny Green our primary ball handler, and he ended up sucking at it, that posting his numbers as a primary ball handler would be an accurate reflection of how he could optimally contribute for this team?


Fair enough point. On a broader scale, I personally see Kuzma as an overhyped role player. One of the main reasons why he's hyped up is because of the success of Ingram and Randle away from LA, mainly Ingram since the discussion of who we should keep amongst the two was ramped just last season.
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Last edited by GTL on Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:40 pm    Post subject:

hype wrote:
GTL wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
PayasoLoco wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
The context people are missing, is that Kuzma’s primary asset is scoring, is struggling to do so to a degree not many expected, and is still #2 in the league in scoring in the same or fewer minutes and joins Lebron as the only common players in all 3 of our top 3 lineups in net rating.

One of the least efficient shots in his arsenal is the 2pt dribble pull up, and the shares of shots he takes that are of that type has doubled.

He’s being misused.

So he’s only useful when he has a green light to chuck? Doesn’t sound like a championship caliber player and more like a Sacramento king type of player.


No. We gotta get out of this binary thinking.

Let me try a different way. There is a player who is available to the Lakers, and he shoots 52% from the 3pt corners, and finishes at the basket at a rate of 70% which is halfway between Lebron and AD.

However, on dribble pull ups, this player only shoots 34%.

Would you give THIS player the green light to chuck for us?


Overall he shoots 43% from the field, 33% from 3, averaging 12 points in 24 minutes of play.

Kareem Rush had similar numbers in his career.

Why is this that impressive to you guys that he's suddenly untouchable?

He's never been as talented as Brandon Ingram or Julius Randle.

I just don't see it. Maybe I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting to that if I am.


I'm with you 100%.. I always thought Ingram had all star potential, even early on he had flashes of brilliance it's just that now it's consistent since he's got some experience. There's a reason most of our other guys that have went on to flourish were high lottery picks while Kuzma is a much later pick.

Kuzma is only slightly better then his rookie year imo and while he's still somewhat young he's turning 25 this year so what you see is what you get with him at this point with maybe some slight improvements. He just simply does not have that great feel for the game, high iq or consistent hustle to match his talent. Basically the things you can't teach...

I think with some more work he can be a very solid role player but I just don't see him being a legit consistent star at any point. He'll have his occasional hot shooting nights or stretches where he seems engaged and impacts the game but then ghost for a bit before returning again at some point. It's a roller coaster ride that's been up and down since he came into the league. People just keep waiting for him to become a consistent 3 point threat which he's never been his entire life not even high school or college.

I have a feeling he's going to get some big offers from other teams so i'd do whatever I could to trade him in the off season honestly so we don't lose him for nothing in the end. Hopefully there's something better then what could be had at this years deadline because I agreed he wasn't worth trading for any of the bigger trade proposals I saw floating around.

I'd love nothing more then to see him put it all together and play lights out for the rest of the season and into the Playoffs giving us that extra push we need to beat out the other contenders but I just personally see that happening occasionally and not consistently.


You articulated that better then I.

Most of us saw the talent in Ingram, were adamant that we preferred Brandon over Kuzma if we had the choice. There were deciding factors to why that didn't happen, and clearly AD was in the mix so you have to make that trade regardless.

With that said, I think there are a lot of fans who are holding onto false hope that Kyle is going to transform into something he's just not. Because of the success of Brandon and other former Lakers currently playing well on other squads. I don't sense that happening here or elsewhere for Kuz. I don't want anybody on this team to fail, not even fish hands Kwame, I wanted success for the team as a whole.

You can watch Kuzma play and see right before your eyes that he's really not all that great. Brandon has length and a wingspan for days. Kyle is just an average guard forward with nothing really spectacular other then some string of decent games for a glorified role player.

But I think you're right. His value seems higher then his actual talent. There have been tons of players throughout the years who have suffered this consequence. Unfortunately for them, when push came to shove, they couldn't deliver.
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