| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
TooMuchMajicBuss
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 21080
Location: In a white room, with black curtains near the station
|
 Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| epak wrote: | | danzag wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | Hart is one of those championship type players. Great to have him. |
Yes!
You can't win championships without Kobe and Shaq. But you can't win championships without Fox and Shaw.
Nance and Hart are two guys I want the Lakers to keep for 10+ years |
That logic is bugging me a bit.
The logic is saying you can't win without stars and you can't win without role players, which is TRUE. But that's like saying, you can't win without 5 players on the court.
The thing is that role players are much easier to replace than stars. You can replace a Rick Fox with a Trevor Ariza, or a Brian Shaw with a Derek Fisher. But rarely will you be able to replace a Shaq or Kobe.
I love Nance and Hart, and I wish the Lakers keep them for years. But they shouldn't be the players that holds back improving the team by keeping them at all cost. I know you're not saying that in your post, but that's the sentiment I was getting the past page or so. |
I'm not sure it's quite that simple to replace players like Fox, Fisher, Ariza, Shaw. A championship role player has a lot of rare qualities including fit with team needs, solid defense in clutch situations, a propensity to play intelligent basketball with a minimum of bonehead plays, an understanding of what the offense and defense are trying to establish, a willingness to dig deep when everything's on the line and come up with the spectacular save of possession, block, steal, pick, or shot, and in all situations an unselfishness that allows his game to fit in like a glove with the strengths of the stars of the team, rather than competing for ball handling time.
Not saying Hart's there yet, he does have rookie moments, and I agree he's not untouchable. But that said, Hart looks a lot more like he could be that kind of championship role player than most rookies I've seen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Judah
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Posts: 4759
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| epak wrote: | | danzag wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | Hart is one of those championship type players. Great to have him. |
Yes!
You can't win championships without Kobe and Shaq. But you can't win championships without Fox and Shaw.
Nance and Hart are two guys I want the Lakers to keep for 10+ years |
That logic is bugging me a bit.
The logic is saying you can't win without stars and you can't win without role players, which is TRUE. But that's like saying, you can't win without 5 players on the court.
The thing is that role players are much easier to replace than stars. You can replace a Rick Fox with a Trevor Ariza, or a Brian Shaw with a Derek Fisher. But rarely will you be able to replace a Shaq or Kobe.
I love Nance and Hart, and I wish the Lakers keep them for years. But they shouldn't be the players that holds back improving the team by keeping them at all cost. I know you're not saying that in your post, but that's the sentiment I was getting the past page or so. |
Role players might be easier to replace, but that doesn’t mean they’re easy to replace. If it was easy to find players like Nance and Hart, players who are willing to give it their all, make the extra effort plays, understand who they are (role players who come off the bench), and will just do whatever they have to in order to help the team win, every team would have players like that. If Nance and Hart played for the Spurs I’d bet any amount of money that Pop wouldn’t let them go.
_________________
“Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there."
- John Piper |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | | epak wrote: | | danzag wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | Hart is one of those championship type players. Great to have him. |
Yes!
You can't win championships without Kobe and Shaq. But you can't win championships without Fox and Shaw.
Nance and Hart are two guys I want the Lakers to keep for 10+ years |
That logic is bugging me a bit.
The logic is saying you can't win without stars and you can't win without role players, which is TRUE. But that's like saying, you can't win without 5 players on the court.
The thing is that role players are much easier to replace than stars. You can replace a Rick Fox with a Trevor Ariza, or a Brian Shaw with a Derek Fisher. But rarely will you be able to replace a Shaq or Kobe.
I love Nance and Hart, and I wish the Lakers keep them for years. But they shouldn't be the players that holds back improving the team by keeping them at all cost. I know you're not saying that in your post, but that's the sentiment I was getting the past page or so. |
I'm not sure it's quite that simple to replace players like Fox, Fisher, Ariza, Shaw. A championship role player has a lot of rare qualities including fit with team needs, solid defense in clutch situations, a propensity to play intelligent basketball with a minimum of bonehead plays, an understanding of what the offense and defense are trying to establish, a willingness to dig deep when everything's on the line and come up with the spectacular save of possession, block, steal, pick, or shot, and in all situations an unselfishness that allows his game to fit in like a glove with the strengths of the stars of the team, rather than competing for ball handling time.
Not saying Hart's there yet, he does have rookie moments, and I agree he's not untouchable. But that said, Hart looks a lot more like he could be that kind of championship role player than most rookies I've seen. |
3 of the 4 you mentioned we did replace and won championships. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TooMuchMajicBuss
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 21080
Location: In a white room, with black curtains near the station
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| €H£M£$TR¥ wrote: | | The whole team is just full of scrappers and mentally advanced players like Hitman. Love his game. |
Hitman Hart. Has a ring to it.
Reminds me of Hitman Hearns. One badassedly tough dude from years ago. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
adkindo
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
Per 36
Kuzma - 19.6 PPG / 7.1 RPG / 2.3 APG / 0.6 SPG / 0.5 BPG / 2.2 TOPG
Ball - 10.8 PPG / 7.6 RPG / 7.5 APG / 1.6 SPG / 0.9 BPG / 2.9 TOPG
Hart - 10.4 PPG / 5.6 RPG / 1.8 APG / 1.3 SPG / 0.4 BPG / 1.0 TOPG
not suggesting Hart has similar potential/upside....only surprised how close his performance has been to the more publicized rookies in his minutes on the court. Even if we get some big FA's....could this be the starting #1 through #4 (with Ingram) in 5 years if we hang on to all 4? They would all be in their prime! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Judah
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Posts: 4759
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| BigGameHames wrote: | | TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | | epak wrote: | | danzag wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | Hart is one of those championship type players. Great to have him. |
Yes!
You can't win championships without Kobe and Shaq. But you can't win championships without Fox and Shaw.
Nance and Hart are two guys I want the Lakers to keep for 10+ years |
That logic is bugging me a bit.
The logic is saying you can't win without stars and you can't win without role players, which is TRUE. But that's like saying, you can't win without 5 players on the court.
The thing is that role players are much easier to replace than stars. You can replace a Rick Fox with a Trevor Ariza, or a Brian Shaw with a Derek Fisher. But rarely will you be able to replace a Shaq or Kobe.
I love Nance and Hart, and I wish the Lakers keep them for years. But they shouldn't be the players that holds back improving the team by keeping them at all cost. I know you're not saying that in your post, but that's the sentiment I was getting the past page or so. |
I'm not sure it's quite that simple to replace players like Fox, Fisher, Ariza, Shaw. A championship role player has a lot of rare qualities including fit with team needs, solid defense in clutch situations, a propensity to play intelligent basketball with a minimum of bonehead plays, an understanding of what the offense and defense are trying to establish, a willingness to dig deep when everything's on the line and come up with the spectacular save of possession, block, steal, pick, or shot, and in all situations an unselfishness that allows his game to fit in like a glove with the strengths of the stars of the team, rather than competing for ball handling time.
Not saying Hart's there yet, he does have rookie moments, and I agree he's not untouchable. But that said, Hart looks a lot more like he could be that kind of championship role player than most rookies I've seen. |
3 of the 4 you mentioned we did replace and won championships. |
The only player of those four who was legitimately replaced was Ariza, who was swapped for The Artist Formerly Known as Ron Artest. Shaw and Fox weren’t replaced. The Lakers just did a rebuild. Two different eras. Not sure how Fisher was ever “replaced” though.
And for what it’s worth, it’s only easier to replace role players of their mold if you already have a championship foundation set with superstar players. Remember Turiaf? He was a lot like those players. He left because GS overpaid for him. The only reason it didn’t hurt the team was because Bynum came back and Odom became the sixth man. These Lakers are different. They wouldn’t be able to afford losing a Hart or Nance at this stage. It’s an added plus that they were drafted by the team. It’ll make it a little easier to retain them.
_________________
“Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there."
- John Piper |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
adkindo
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BennyLava
Star Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2012
Posts: 3582
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | | €H£M£$TR¥ wrote: | | The whole team is just full of scrappers and mentally advanced players like Hitman. Love his game. |
Hitman Hart. Has a ring to it.
Reminds me of Hitman Hearns. One badassedly tough dude from years ago. |
The nickname is literally taken from Brett the Hitman Hart in the old WWF in the late 80s-90s. Excellence in Execution. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TooMuchMajicBuss
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 21080
Location: In a white room, with black curtains near the station
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| BigGameHames wrote: | | TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | | epak wrote: | | danzag wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | Hart is one of those championship type players. Great to have him. |
Yes!
You can't win championships without Kobe and Shaq. But you can't win championships without Fox and Shaw.
Nance and Hart are two guys I want the Lakers to keep for 10+ years |
That logic is bugging me a bit.
The logic is saying you can't win without stars and you can't win without role players, which is TRUE. But that's like saying, you can't win without 5 players on the court.
The thing is that role players are much easier to replace than stars. You can replace a Rick Fox with a Trevor Ariza, or a Brian Shaw with a Derek Fisher. But rarely will you be able to replace a Shaq or Kobe.
I love Nance and Hart, and I wish the Lakers keep them for years. But they shouldn't be the players that holds back improving the team by keeping them at all cost. I know you're not saying that in your post, but that's the sentiment I was getting the past page or so. |
I'm not sure it's quite that simple to replace players like Fox, Fisher, Ariza, Shaw. A championship role player has a lot of rare qualities including fit with team needs, solid defense in clutch situations, a propensity to play intelligent basketball with a minimum of bonehead plays, an understanding of what the offense and defense are trying to establish, a willingness to dig deep when everything's on the line and come up with the spectacular save of possession, block, steal, pick, or shot, and in all situations an unselfishness that allows his game to fit in like a glove with the strengths of the stars of the team, rather than competing for ball handling time.
Not saying Hart's there yet, he does have rookie moments, and I agree he's not untouchable. But that said, Hart looks a lot more like he could be that kind of championship role player than most rookies I've seen. |
3 of the 4 you mentioned we did replace and won championships. |
Shaw retired in 2003 a year after the end of a 3 year title run for the Lakers. Fox - also ended his career with the Lakers. Yes we did put a title team back together - by 2009, seven years after the previous title. That's quite a span. Give it a long enough span anyone is replaceable. We replaced Jerry West with Magic Johnson? Lamar Odom with Kyle Kuzma? I don't think what you said is accurate. It took a while to rebuild.
Derek Fisher - first stint version was replaced by post-Utah Derek Fisher, and we subsequenty won titles with him on board until he got too old. No titles since so I disagree on us replacing him and winning titles either.
Ariza - we did replace him and won a title. We had a core that could draw free agents seeking titles, and Trevor's agent got too cocky. We replaced him with Artest. Good in the short run for a team with aging superstars. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
socalsp3
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 3502
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Dude is uncanny finishing in traffic. Hes like a bowling ball |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerDynasty6.0
Star Player
Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 4660
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dude will take a charge, he'll go at an opponent, he's an enforcer! and Josh doesn't look like the guy who'd lose his cool on the court!
But the best part of his game is protection at all cost.. Case in point the head he used to tag Al Horford on tuesday. Noone would call it a dirty play (because it isn't) but that's the kind of play the team needs..and the kind of play that opponents will remember. Poor Horford, was down for a few, and then out for the rest!
Now if only he could avoid fouling on the trey! (and-one!)
_________________
Starting Lakers Dynasty6.0! NOW!!
------
....." each year in Lakerland is marked by four seasons: Kobe’s Mad at His Teammates; Kobe’s Shooting Too Much; Kobe Leads the Victory Parade; Kobe Receives His Championship Ring." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm a sucker for my favorite players being 3 and D types. Fav all time is Michael Cooper. Josh Hart just expands upon that.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Logo
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2013
Posts: 9577
Location: Salem, OR
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Love what Josh does for this team, but he's gotta start making his freethrows. Down to 66.7% on the season |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Logo wrote: | | Love what Josh does for this team, but he's gotta start making his freethrows. Down to 66.7% on the season |
I don't really like his shooting form. But I'll take 67% FT shooting if it comes with 36% 3 point shooting and his defense. Solid bench 2. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Worthy42
Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 19952
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| keep working on your ft's josh |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Logo
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2013
Posts: 9577
Location: Salem, OR
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tox wrote: | | The Logo wrote: | | Love what Josh does for this team, but he's gotta start making his freethrows. Down to 66.7% on the season |
I don't really like his shooting form. But I'll take 67% FT shooting if it comes with 36% 3 point shooting and his defense. Solid bench 2. |
Yeah, it's great that he's shooting those percentages his rookie year (didn't expect him to be a slightly above league average three point shooter this year). Ideally, I'd want him to hover around a 38-40% three point shooter in his prime with around 75% free throw shooting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Drifts
Retired Number
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 28374
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hack a Hart
_________________
"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GoldenThroat
Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| He's been bad the last few games. Hoping to see him clean up some things on the defensive end between now and the end of the season. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danzag
Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
Posts: 22379
Location: Brazil
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| He hit the so called rookie wall |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
€H£M£$TR¥
Star Player
Joined: 03 Apr 2017
Posts: 3782
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| BennyLava wrote: | | TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | | €H£M£$TR¥ wrote: | | The whole team is just full of scrappers and mentally advanced players like Hitman. Love his game. |
Hitman Hart. Has a ring to it.
Reminds me of Hitman Hearns. One badassedly tough dude from years ago. |
The nickname is literally taken from Brett the Hitman Hart in the old WWF in the late 80s-90s. Excellence in Execution. |
The best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be.
_________________
DEAR BASKETBALL |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
governator
Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25092
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| This guy is a stronger Byron Scott |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
adkindo
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerLogic
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 17886
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| GoldenThroat wrote: | | He's been bad the last few games. Hoping to see him clean up some things on the defensive end between now and the end of the season. |
His closeouts on shooters are terrible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pio2u
Retired Number
Joined: 26 Dec 2012
Posts: 54624
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
Josh is still a rookie but IMO he has exceeded expectations. He is learning to play through the tough times.
Despite JH's recent woes he continues to hustle and grind as evidenced by that big steal he had late in the game vs the Bulls.
The effort is there he just needs more time and experience to put it all together. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lakers4Life33
Star Player
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 1174
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| GoldenThroat wrote: | | He's been bad the last few games. Hoping to see him clean up some things on the defensive end between now and the end of the season. |
Your player analysis video got to his head lol |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
