John McEnroe pisses off Serena Williams + fans
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject:

He was set up. And he is right anyway.

Back when they were young, both serena and venus played an older german chain smoker and drinker who was outside the top 200 and got smoked. Venus and Serena were around 5th and 20th among women at that time.

Serena is the best female tennis player ever, but she should have been mad at the interviewer, not Mac.


Last edited by ringfinger on Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
governator wrote:
It'd be cool to make an exception and actually let Serena test herself in a men tournament


Already kinda hapenned:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis)#1998:_Karsten_Braasch_vs._the_Williams_sisters

>1998 Australian Open
>Venus and Serena claimed they could beat any male payer ranked >200.
>Karsten Braasch (ranked #203) challenged both
>Braasch played a round of golf and drank 2 beers and then beat serena 6-1, and then beat Venus 6-2, back-to-back.
>Braasch said he played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun"


He was well known for smoking cigs while training lol
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
nickuku wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
He's not wrong though.


Here is the current 700th ranked singles player:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/issam%20haitham-taweel/tc00/overview

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issam_Haitham_Taweel

I guess she might be able to take that guy.


He'd destroy her imo.


I don't know. He's 5' 2" and has a career singles record of 2-5 at age 27. Serena might be competitive with him.


He's probably quick as hell and her power shots are probably like the normal dudes he plays.


That's the current 700th player. Who is significantly worse than the 700th player of all time.
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ChefLinda
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:48 pm    Post subject:

Underlying message: If you're a woman, you can be the best in the world at your job and some man will still try to talk (bleep) about you and devalue your accomplishments.

John McEnroe, once an (bleep), always an (bleep).
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Underlying message: If you're a woman, you can be the best in the world at your job and some man will still try to talk (bleep) about you and devalue your accomplishments.

John McEnroe, once an (bleep), always an (bleep).


This sounds like someone who didn't see the video at all. Stop being bitter.
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ChefLinda
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject:

kaoss128 wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Underlying message: If you're a woman, you can be the best in the world at your job and some man will still try to talk (bleep) about you and devalue your accomplishments.

John McEnroe, once an (bleep), always an (bleep).


This sounds like someone who didn't see the video at all. Stop being bitter.


Thanks for the condescending, unsolicited advice and assessment of my emotional state.

Exhibit A for my above statement.
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Underlying message: If you're a woman, you can be the best in the world at your job and some man will still try to talk (bleep) about you and devalue your accomplishments.

John McEnroe, once an (bleep), always an (bleep).


That man was once the #1 player in the world and follows the sport to this day....I guess he doesn't know anything about the sport....
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:08 pm    Post subject:

Whooosh....
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
He's not wrong though.


agree


Regardless, it was a stupid thing to say. Mac should have just said, "All I know is she would wipe the court with me", which she would.


This article from 2013 was prescient:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/08/bobby-riggs-billie-jean-king-battle-of-the-sexes-rigged

Quote:
Riggs was 55 years old. King was in her heyday. Its like if Serena Williams played John McEnroe today. Whatever happened in the Court match was irrelevant. King should have won that match and did win it.


It would be like taking the best WNBA player today versus a 54 year old MJ. Sure MJ could still make his buckets but he would be huffing and puffing trying to run down the court.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Underlying message: If you're a woman, you can be the best in the world at your job and some man will still try to talk (bleep) about you and devalue your accomplishments.

John McEnroe, once an (bleep), always an (bleep).


McEnroe shouldn't have taken the bait, but let's be honest about what happened. He didn't randomly go on the attack "to talk (bleep)" about Serena.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:22 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Underlying message: If you're a woman, you can be the best in the world at your job and some man will still try to talk (bleep) about you and devalue your accomplishments.

John McEnroe, once an (bleep), always an (bleep).


Mac didn't do that. Did you watch the video?

He said she was the best female tennis player ever. Then the interviewer kept asking why he qualifies it like that. To me it was pretty obvious they were trying to get under his skin.
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:22 pm    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:


Regardless, it was a stupid thing to say. Mac should have just said, "All I know is she would wipe the court with me", which she would.


I would hope she'd be able wipe the floor with a 58 year-old retiree. I still think John might take a game or two.


Of course, but not really my point.


To your point: Why do you think it was stupid of him to say what he said?


Johnny Mac didn't give the PC answer. Thats why people are ticked off at him.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:


Regardless, it was a stupid thing to say. Mac should have just said, "All I know is she would wipe the court with me", which she would.


I would hope she'd be able wipe the floor with a 58 year-old retiree. I still think John might take a game or two.


Of course, but not really my point.


To your point: Why do you think it was stupid of him to say what he said?


Johnny Mac didn't give the PC answer. Thats why people are ticked off at him.


On a question that was clearly intended to elicit a controversial response.

Yes, he shouldnt have taken the bait, but the interviewer shouldn't have set the trap either. Why do we do things like this??
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject:

He was extremely complimentary toward Serena in the full exchange and when talking about himself was self-deprecating. The comment didn't come from the interviewer saying, "Tell me how good you think Serena Williams is." The exchange started with him saying she's the best female player in history. That's a really nice compliment! Considering it'd be perfectly fair to debate whether, say, Steffi Graf was actually better. He's also praised Serena, rightfully of course, throughout her career.

I'm not sure what he was supposed to say to the particular question he received that could have prevented people from getting mad at him. That she'd be ranked 345th? 20th? He could have gotten into a chat about what greatest means in this type of context -- most dominant in your field, most dominant against your peers compared to the other greats in history, etc., -- but in this case I interpreted the questioner as saying Serena was the best -- ie. would beat EVERY other player in the world, male or female. And McEnroe did too, which led to the wholly expected result.

More incredibly to me has been some of the comments online from people saying Serena would destroy McEnroe on the court....prime McEnroe! Forget 58-year-old John, who, by the way still gives guys like Andy Roddick great battles in the old man tennis tour. No, there are those who think she'd beat McEnroe in his prime. A good friend of mine said this and we had a fun exchange but I've seen it all over Twitter. Too much power! She'd kill him!

This idea to me is baffling. Consider this: Roberta Vinci beat Serena in the 2015 US Open. Roberta Vinci! But 1984 McEnroe wouldn't stand a chance.

A washed-up, over the hill McEnroe twice beat Andre Agassi, a guy who later defeated Federer. I totally subscribe to the old sports argument if Team A beats Team B and Team B beats Team C, then Team A could beat Team C. Same with individuals. And I know different people match up in different ways but it's a fairly sound argument. And if a fossilized McEnroe could beat a guy who could beat Federer, then, yeah, 1984 Mac would have done fine against Fed. Which means it's fairly laughable to think Serena would beat prime Mac.

Women players who played during McEnroe's time beat Serena. Graf, for instance. So Steffi Graf can beat her but a guy who had perhaps the most dominant season in tennis history couldn't?

Serena is absolutely amazing, and she has been lauded throughout her career. Her skills are very much appreciated. Again, rightfully so. But she's not an underrated talent who's never been given her due. And there's nothing wrong with what McEnroe said. Of course her accomplishments shouldn't be denigrated based on the fact she wouldn't win on the men's tour. But these types of conversations usually only spring up around Serena because there are many people who do think she'd compete just fine, whether against the 700th best player or one of the best of all-time. You wouldn't see Jordan being yelled at online if he called Diana Taurasi the best female player ever and then someone said, "Why not just say she's the best basketball player, why qualify?"

To think hundreds of men would defeat Serena on the court isn't some outlandish belief, and to say so shouldn't lead to CBS Morning anchors bizarrely calling for apologies, as happened to McEnroe today.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject:

Mac would have been wrong saying what he said if they competed in the same arena. But they don't play the same opponents. Its not even the same league.

It would be different if he qualified his statement about someone who.competes on the same stage. Like, who is the best businessperson, for instance. Then it would be wrong to qualify it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject:

i would like to think everyone sees an inherent difference between the male and female game in any sport. hence no calls for women to play in the NFL separate leagues, and recognition for the obvious physiological differences/advantages.

mcenroe has been in the public eye for the majority of his life and a member of the media post tennis career and elder statesmen for the sport.

i feel if he had said it would be impossible to compare serena to a rafa or roger, or the womens' game is vastly different from the mens, its a different beast altogether etc. it would be fine. but i still feel the way he said it was a little bush league. he's got to do better at representing the game, his colleague serena, and himself.

maybe that's too PC of me, i'm not outraged at mcenroe, but more so the people who are focusing on the validity of his statement versus if it was tactful, classy, or needed to be said re 700th seed.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject:

spflakers wrote:
More incredibly to me has been some of the comments online from people saying Serena would destroy McEnroe on the court....prime McEnroe! Forget 58-year-old John, who, by the way still gives guys like Andy Roddick great battles in the old man tennis tour. No, there are those who think she'd beat McEnroe in his prime. A good friend of mine said this and we had a fun exchange but I've seen it all over Twitter. Too much power! She'd kill him!


More people should watch an occasional mixed doubles match to get some perspective. McEnroe should have avoided the trap, but political correctness does not change reality.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:15 pm    Post subject:

ani007 wrote:
i would like to think everyone sees an inherent difference between the male and female game in any sport. hence no calls for women to play in the NFL separate leagues, and recognition for the obvious physiological differences/advantages.

mcenroe has been in the public eye for the majority of his life and a member of the media post tennis career and elder statesmen for the sport.

i feel if he had said it would be impossible to compare serena to a rafa or roger, or the womens' game is vastly different from the mens, its a different beast altogether etc. it would be fine. but i still feel the way he said it was a little bush league. he's got to do better at representing the game, his colleague serena, and himself.

maybe that's too PC of me, i'm not outraged at mcenroe, but more so the people who are focusing on the validity of his statement versus if it was tactful, classy, or needed to be said re 700th seed.


The interviewer essentially accused him of being sexist when he said she was the best female player ever. And to be fair, I'm not sure Serena would even be in the top 700 all time in a genderless list. When she was 20th and Venus 5th, they lost 6-1 and 6-2 to a chain smoking guy messing around who was ranked 203rd at the time. He smoked a cig during the changeovers in that match! Lol.

So now take every tennis player to have ever played its not hard to imagine a guy ranked 203rd at that time may not be in the top 700 ever.

When asked about that match in 2013, Serena had an interesting response.

Quote:
I dont know, she said. Im pretty much focused on womens tennis right now. I have to focus on that.


https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usatoday.com/story/96876832/

Why qualify it like that, hmm?

I do love Serena Williams though and agree with Mac that she is now the best WTA player of all time. I had it with Graf until Serena surpassed her on majors.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject:

spflakers wrote:
He was extremely complimentary toward Serena in the full exchange and when talking about himself was self-deprecating. The comment didn't come from the interviewer saying, "Tell me how good you think Serena Williams is." The exchange started with him saying she's the best female player in history. That's a really nice compliment! Considering it'd be perfectly fair to debate whether, say, Steffi Graf was actually better. He's also praised Serena, rightfully of course, throughout her career.

I'm not sure what he was supposed to say to the particular question he received that could have prevented people from getting mad at him. That she'd be ranked 345th? 20th? He could have gotten into a chat about what greatest means in this type of context -- most dominant in your field, most dominant against your peers compared to the other greats in history, etc., -- but in this case I interpreted the questioner as saying Serena was the best -- ie. would beat EVERY other player in the world, male or female. And McEnroe did too, which led to the wholly expected result.

More incredibly to me has been some of the comments online from people saying Serena would destroy McEnroe on the court....prime McEnroe! Forget 58-year-old John, who, by the way still gives guys like Andy Roddick great battles in the old man tennis tour. No, there are those who think she'd beat McEnroe in his prime. A good friend of mine said this and we had a fun exchange but I've seen it all over Twitter. Too much power! She'd kill him!

This idea to me is baffling. Consider this: Roberta Vinci beat Serena in the 2015 US Open. Roberta Vinci! But 1984 McEnroe wouldn't stand a chance.

A washed-up, over the hill McEnroe twice beat Andre Agassi, a guy who later defeated Federer. I totally subscribe to the old sports argument if Team A beats Team B and Team B beats Team C, then Team A could beat Team C. Same with individuals. And I know different people match up in different ways but it's a fairly sound argument. And if a fossilized McEnroe could beat a guy who could beat Federer, then, yeah, 1984 Mac would have done fine against Fed. Which means it's fairly laughable to think Serena would beat prime Mac.

Women players who played during McEnroe's time beat Serena. Graf, for instance. So Steffi Graf can beat her but a guy who had perhaps the most dominant season in tennis history couldn't?

Serena is absolutely amazing, and she has been lauded throughout her career. Her skills are very much appreciated. Again, rightfully so. But she's not an underrated talent who's never been given her due. And there's nothing wrong with what McEnroe said. Of course her accomplishments shouldn't be denigrated based on the fact she wouldn't win on the men's tour. But these types of conversations usually only spring up around Serena because there are many people who do think she'd compete just fine, whether against the 700th best player or one of the best of all-time. You wouldn't see Jordan being yelled at online if he called Diana Taurasi the best female player ever and then someone said, "Why not just say she's the best basketball player, why qualify?"

To think hundreds of men would defeat Serena on the court isn't some outlandish belief, and to say so shouldn't lead to CBS Morning anchors bizarrely calling for apologies, as happened to McEnroe today.


This is very well-said. As DMR said, there was nothing to be gained by McEnroe by making a comparison like that. But what he said was not malicious at all, if you take the whole interview into account.

As for a Serena-McEnroe match, McEnroe wouldn't beat Serena now, but 10-15 years ago I think he would have had a strong chance. He still has a really good serve, but 10-15 years ago his serve was even stronger and he could move much better. Today, he can serve pretty well, and when he does get to the net in an attacking position, his volleying is still first-rate. But his movement is so limited that he is at a massive disadvantage in a normal rally, and if he's facing a good serve, he has very few options to take the advantage in a point. (That's why Serena would hold serve against him very easily.) If they did play a King-Riggs style of match now, I suspect that McEnroe would hold serve a couple of times in an average set against her. If they had played 10-15 years ago, you probably would have seen a bunch of holds by both players, very few break points, and possibly a tiebreak or two.

And yes, any assertion that Serena could have beaten any of the top male pros of McEnroe's day is farcical. But that must be coming from internet yahoos, because I haven't seen any of that in the media. And to Serena's credit, as has been cited in this thread, she is aware of how different the men's game is. She's no longer the teenager who brashly thought she could compete with the likes of Karsten Braasch.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
ani007 wrote:
i would like to think everyone sees an inherent difference between the male and female game in any sport. hence no calls for women to play in the NFL separate leagues, and recognition for the obvious physiological differences/advantages.

mcenroe has been in the public eye for the majority of his life and a member of the media post tennis career and elder statesmen for the sport.

i feel if he had said it would be impossible to compare serena to a rafa or roger, or the womens' game is vastly different from the mens, its a different beast altogether etc. it would be fine. but i still feel the way he said it was a little bush league. he's got to do better at representing the game, his colleague serena, and himself.

maybe that's too PC of me, i'm not outraged at mcenroe, but more so the people who are focusing on the validity of his statement versus if it was tactful, classy, or needed to be said re 700th seed.


The interviewer essentially accused him of being sexist when he said she was the best female player ever. And to be fair, I'm not sure Serena would even be in the top 700 all time in a genderless list. When she was 20th and Venus 5th, they lost 6-1 and 6-2 to a chain smoking guy messing around who was ranked 203rd at the time. He smoked a cig during the changeovers in that match! Lol.

So now take every tennis player to have ever played its not hard to imagine a guy ranked 203rd at that time may not be in the top 700 ever.

When asked about that match in 2013, Serena had an interesting response.

Quote:
I dont know, she said. Im pretty much focused on womens tennis right now. I have to focus on that.


https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usatoday.com/story/96876832/

Why qualify it like that, hmm?

I do love Serena Williams though and agree with Mac that she is now the best WTA player of all time. I had it with Graf until Serena surpassed her on majors.


I haven't heard the original interview that was the cause for this fracas. As i understood it, mcenroe was asked why he was qualifying serena as the best Women's player versus best player period?

I thought and assumed what mcenroe said regarding the diff in gameplay was common knowledge. I'm not disputing the validity, i agree with him. Nonetheless, I think it's a careless way to phrase it by an elder statesmen of the game and a dig regardless of validity. Being part of the media, if that was the best response he could come up with, that's kinda sad.

I don't know why people are so vehemently defending his statement. I don't think most people are upset due to his comments being untrue. If that was the case, i'd give him credit for elucidating the vast difference between men and women in sports.

It's being politicized as if liberals or feminists or whatever are delusional and advocate equality to the extent of not understanding the sport or being deluded enough to advocate the NFL to accept women.

I don't understand why his statement can't be true and tactless at the same time.....

but maybe that's too PC. heck, i thought it wasn't becoming for magic to talk trash about dlo post trade.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:46 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
What [McEnroe] said was not malicious at all, if you take the whole interview into account.


Indeed not. He was pressed into making a comment in regards to comparisons and made a fair one that even Williams has agreed with. He could have found a more gracious way to make his point and move on, but the idea that some are floating that John willfully and arbitraroliy denigrated Serena out of spite and chauvinism doesn't hold up.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
What [McEnroe] said was not malicious at all, if you take the whole interview into account.


Indeed not. He was pressed into making a comment in regards to comparisons and made a fair one that even Williams has agreed with. He could have found a more gracious way to make his point and move on, but the idea that some are floating that John willfully and arbitraroliy denigrated Serena out of spite and chauvinism doesn't hold up.


Still won't stop those who want to use this as another example of male chauvinism and perpetual denigration.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject:

spflakers wrote:

I'm not sure what he was supposed to say to the particular question he received that could have prevented people from getting mad at him. That she'd be ranked 345th? 20th?


That it would be difficult to compare players between the womens game and the mens he could even say the men's is more demanding. (greater physicality, more sets, etc.), though to promote a book i don't know why he would even discuss why men and women are physiologically different.....or consequently the vast difference in all sports between men and women

its like when you guys discuss the difficulties of comparing players of different eras or different positions in basketball.

he could say I would find it hard to compare serena to a rafa or a roger and this is why i call her the best women's tennis player of all time. i simply find the gameplay vastly different in the men's game.

i would take no offense to that and wouldn't have to read right wing articles with the understated subcontext of liberals are so deluded on equality that they deny the physiological differences between the sexes.....
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject:

Here's the exchange. Pretty benign. He even says on a given day she'd probably beat some men!

Quote:

Garcia-Navarro: We're talking about male players but there is of course wonderful female players. Let's talk about Serena Williams. You say she is the best female player in the world in the book.

McEnroe: Best female player ever no question.

Garcia-Navarro: Some wouldn't qualify it, some would say she's the best player in the world. Why qualify it?

McEnroe: Oh! Uh, she's not, you mean, the best player in the world, period?

Garcia-Navarro: Yeah, the best tennis player in the world. You know, why say female player?

McEnroe: Well because if she was in, if she played the men's circuit she'd be like 700 in the world.

Garcia-Navarro: You think so?

McEnroe: Yeah. That doesn't mean I don't think Serena is an incredible player. I do, but the reality of what would happen would be I think something that perhaps it'd be a little higher, perhaps it'd be a little lower. And on a given day, Serena could beat some players. I believe because she's so incredibly strong mentally that she could overcome some situations where players would choke 'cause she's been in it so many times, so many situations at Wimbledon, The U.S. Open, etc. But if she had to just play the circuit the men's circuit that would be an entirely different story.

Garcia-Navarro: Many people over the years, including, we should mention Donald Trump, the President, wanted you to play her, and you seemed to have at least thought about it.

McEnroe: Well I've thought about it. I didn't really want to do it, personally. I don't know, people always seemed I would say why don't they go ask Roger Federer? Or someone, you know they added the old fart that's you know 25 years over the hill. And I think I can still play and I think I could still I mean my kids don't think I can beat her anymore. Maybe I should get her now because she's pregnant, but the truth is that I think that sometimes I don't know why in tennis, I get it's that one battle of the sexes when Bobby Riggs played Billie Jean.

Garcia-Navarro: Billie Jean one of the most famous, iconic and most watched, I think tennis matches at the time.

McEnroe: Yeah, it was no question. I think there was the most, the biggest attendance at the Houston Astrodome, and it was great that Billie Jean did that but...OK, but that doesn't mean, talk about other sports. If you go look at the times, for example, of the world's fastest females and you know maybe it will change! You know my daughter, one the things she says is 'You're a feminist, Dad.' OK. I started with two boys, I got four girls now and I'm all for it and I'm trying to just get with it and figure it out.

Garcia-Navarro: So, you're a feminist.

McEnroe: Maybe at some point a women's tennis player can be better than anybody. I just haven't seen it in any other sport, and I haven't seen it in tennis. I suppose anything's possible at some stage.

Garcia-Navarro: You really think at 60, you could possibly beat Serena Williams? Maybe pregnant.

McEnroe: The way you put that makes me think that you have your doubts.

Garcia-Navarro: Far be it from me to question you Mr. McEnroe.

McEnroe: Well, you know, my kids do, so feel free to. But there's people that because of course as you get older I'm not sure how athletic you are and how often you get out in whatever sport it is, but I have kept at it regularly. I've done it sort of doing this playing some other guys close to my age even though they keep getting younger and younger. Obviously, if I was going to do something like that, I would train very seriously for that to make sure my body was at, like, the peak it could be. Absolutely to try and be as ready as I possibly could, but I bring things to the table, certainly until recently. I may be way past it, but I can still bring a few things to the table and so that's why I guess people still find it interesting to even talk about.
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:55 pm    Post subject:

rwongega wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
What [McEnroe] said was not malicious at all, if you take the whole interview into account.


Indeed not. He was pressed into making a comment in regards to comparisons and made a fair one that even Williams has agreed with. He could have found a more gracious way to make his point and move on, but the idea that some are floating that John willfully and arbitraroliy denigrated Serena out of spite and chauvinism doesn't hold up.


Still won't stop those who want to use this as another example of male chauvinism and perpetual denigration.


As we have seen.
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