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MJST
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject:

i agree with That take. Prime Hakeem is a monster in this league even though he played in the post. What I think people are getting away from is the model where you have someone like Shaq who was one dimensional in that regard because not many post players are they dominant anymore and as such they end up being paint clogging liabilities.

That said. Prime Shaq still crushes this league even with the new illegal defense rules. You just need to surround him with guys who can create offense and rotate the ball to the corner 3.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:39 pm    Post subject:

1hu2ren3dui4 wrote:
i agree with That take. Prime Hakeem is a monster in this league even though he played in the post. What I think people are getting away from is the model where you have someone like Shaq who was one dimensional in that regard because not many post players are they dominant anymore and as such they end up being paint clogging liabilities.

That said. Prime Shaq still crushes this league even with the new illegal defense rules. You just need to surround him with guys who can create offense and rotate the ball to the corner 3.


If a coach couldn't figure out how to maximize Shaq's talent against ANY other team, in any era, they should not be coaching in the NBA.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:21 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.


Who on GS can Lopez guard? Maybe Zaza, who will be on the bench when it matters.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:32 am    Post subject:

The paint
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.


Who on GS can Lopez guard? Maybe Zaza, who will be on the bench when it matters.


Who on GS can guard Lopez?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.


Who on GS can Lopez guard? Maybe Zaza, who will be on the bench when it matters.


Who on GS can guard Lopez?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.


Who on GS can Lopez guard? Maybe Zaza, who will be on the bench when it matters.


Who on GS can guard Lopez?


The have the defensive coordination and the length to effectively front the post, but Lonzo's passing is probably good enough to still get Lopez the ball inside.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:11 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.


I disagree with that. Modern NBA is going away from post play and Iso because of lower PPP values, defense aside. Even Embiid was working on his midrange J, step back J, and other perimeter moves to play more like a wing this offseason.

As for Marc Gasol, he's 3-point attempt right is up. Even just 3,2, and 5 attempts reflect catch and shoot shots.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject:

Jiggling Jello wrote:
MJST wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.


Who on GS can Lopez guard? Maybe Zaza, who will be on the bench when it matters.


Who on GS can guard Lopez?


The have the defensive coordination and the length to effectively front the post, but Lonzo's passing is probably good enough to still get Lopez the ball inside.


Here's the thing, like I said the centers value nowadays can come both in the post and from mid. Lopez's ability to stretch the floor makes him a mismatch in the sense that, Draymond isn't going to close out on him and really effect his shot, Draymond likely wouldn't be able to guard him 1 on 1 in the post either, and Draymond trying to close out on him along the perimeter probably doesn't lead to a block.

Those kind of things matter, Lopez being solid on the block is a good counter to slow down a team that wants to run in the half court and not allowing them to. The ability for Lopez to also run at a fast pace means that he can run and he can go at a slower half court pace which is an advantage against teams like Golden State especially when they go small.

Going small v small against Golden State is essentially doom.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.


Who on GS can Lopez guard? Maybe Zaza, who will be on the bench when it matters.


in theory, so would Lopez.

Kuzma/Nance
LeBron
George
Ingram
Lonzo

closes
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.


Who on GS can Lopez guard? Maybe Zaza, who will be on the bench when it matters.


in theory, so would Lopez.

Kuzma/Nance
LeBron
George
Ingram
Lonzo

closes


Going small vs small against Golden State is doom. How are you gonna out-Fred Astaire, Fred Astaire?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.


Who on GS can Lopez guard? Maybe Zaza, who will be on the bench when it matters.


Who on GS can guard Lopez?


Green and Durant for starters.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:


Green and Durant for starters.


They wouldn't put KD on him until the 2nd half. Too much risk of foul trouble. So for 24 minutes it's their designated true big and Draymond. Green is a great defender but Brook would be able to go over the top of him. Also could lead to foul trouble for Green too. Brook is good enough offensively to force more minutes from the likes of Zaza.

That's the first part of beating GS, forcing them to play as many minutes as possible with lineups to counter you. That doesn't work at the end of the game but the first 30 minutes it can.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Here's the thing, like I said the centers value nowadays can come both in the post and from mid. Lopez's ability to stretch the floor makes him a mismatch in the sense that, Draymond isn't going to close out on him and really effect his shot, Draymond likely wouldn't be able to guard him 1 on 1 in the post either, and Draymond trying to close out on him along the perimeter probably doesn't lead to a block.

Those kind of things matter, Lopez being solid on the block is a good counter to slow down a team that wants to run in the half court and not allowing them to.

Going small v small against Golden State is essentially doom.


What will determine Lopez's effectiveness will be his court vision and awareness. He needs to be able to hit guys consistently out of the double and to be aware enough not to get stripped. That's something he still needs some work on, and if he doesn't improve upon that, all the Warriors need to do is double him and strip the ball, none of this Draymond one-on-one stuff. If he does improve upon that, he will be a terror for small ball lineups, regardless of his inability to guard on the perimeter.

MJST wrote:
The ability for Lopez to also run at a fast pace means that he can run and he can go at a slower half court pace which is an advantage against teams like Golden State especially when they go small.


What?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.


I agree 101%

Before this generation we had for so many years a bunch of unskilled bigs like D12 and Noel or players unable to play defense like Okafor.

Every team would want a healthy Embiid.

What has changed is that the modern post player should also be able to shoot, but it doesn't means that he is not going to be used down low, but that he has to be able to take other players from the paint too.
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Lucky_Shot
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
2019 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.


Who on GS can Lopez guard? Maybe Zaza, who will be on the bench when it matters.


in theory, so would Lopez.

Kuzma/Nance
LeBron
George
Ingram
Lonzo

closes


Going small vs small against Golden State is doom. How are you gonna out-Fred Astaire, Fred Astaire?


I love small ball but the GSW were the tallest team last year! They might play some guys out of positions at times but to call the tallest team in the NBA a small ball team doesn't seem right.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject:

Laker's Fan wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:


Green and Durant for starters.


They wouldn't put KD on him until the 2nd half. Too much risk of foul trouble. So for 24 minutes it's their designated true big and Draymond. Green is a great defender but Brook would be able to go over the top of him. Also could lead to foul trouble for Green too. Brook is good enough offensively to force more minutes from the likes of Zaza.

That's the first part of beating GS, forcing them to play as many minutes as possible with lineups to counter you. That doesn't work at the end of the game but the first 30 minutes it can.


They would put KD and then shade/hedge towards him near the paint. It's not about foul trouble either. Even if it's Dray, it's Dray holding position, and KD on the weakside for a swat.

Lopez taking contested shots over Dray is a lower PPP. Defense wins.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:18 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.


Who on GS can Lopez guard? Maybe Zaza, who will be on the bench when it matters.


Who on GS can guard Lopez?

Why do you keep pretending every possession is played 1-on-1? Golden State will stick Draymond on Lopez and have Durant or Iggy hover to help. Then you have Lopez guarding Draymond with the ball at the top of the key while Curry, Klay and Durant run around screens.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject:

Quote:

I love small ball but the GSW were the tallest team last year! They might play some guys out of positions at times but to call the tallest team in the NBA a small ball team doesn't seem right.
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To them it isn't really small ball in terms of size as opposed to skill. Iguodala has the skills to defend wings and PFs. Dray, 4/5.

Quote:

The ability for Lopez to also run at a fast pace means that he can run and he can go at a slower half court pace which is an advantage against teams like Golden State especially when they go small.


Nets ran 4th highest pace in the L. I don't think Lopez is skilled/dominant enough to force teams to dictate tempo like previous dominant Cs in the past.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject:

BynumForThree wrote:
MJST wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
MJST wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Best way to beat Golden State's 'death lineup' is to slow them down, the way you slow them down is in the half court and through the post, forcing them to play a half court game which they don't want to do. Where's Lopez's weakness? The in between game between the rim and the 3 point line, essentially from mid.


I thought it was really obvious why teams were going away from post play. So why on earth reinstate it?


Here's the thing. The NBA isn't going away from post play. It's going away from post play from centers that have no defense.

If Okafor played defense at the level of Turner or heck even at the level of Towns or Koufos or even Lopez for that matter then he'd be seen as a star unquestionably.


It's not that the post center is dead, it's that post centers with no defensive game or mid range shot are what's going by the wayside. Marc Gasol troubled the Warriors for this reason and the Grizzlies were always a tough matchup for the Warriors till they realized Tony Allen couldn't shoot, but the reasons were the same, defense on the wing, and Marc Gasol in the post which meant on offense they could slow the Warriors to a half court pace, and on defense they had Marc Gasol who was a defensive center who could counter the small ball while they couldn't counter his offense on the other end.


So to me, it's not that the "post center" is what's phasing out of the league, but it's centers that may have a post game but no defense or versatility on the other end of it.

Embiid has a post game, but he also has defensive potential and can stretch the floor a bit. If Embiid had just a post game but no defense he'd be phased out the same way.

The post game isn't the enemy, it's the lack of defensive versatility and ability to hit a mid range.

Lopez is vital because he can rim protect, stretch the floor and does have a post game. The in between game is his weakness, but again I'd give up the middie to the Golden State doom lineup over an open three any day.


Who on GS can Lopez guard? Maybe Zaza, who will be on the bench when it matters.


Who on GS can guard Lopez?

Why do you keep pretending every possession is played 1-on-1? Golden State will stick Draymond on Lopez and have Durant or Iggy hover to help. Then you have Lopez guarding Draymond with the ball at the top of the key while Curry, Klay and Durant run around screens.


if Golden State is doubling Lopez in the post with their two best defenders they're leaving Ball, KCP or Ingram open for three. I'll take that.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject:

I love Brook but there is no way he's closing out games against the Warriors. Starter? Of course.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I love Brook but there is no way he's closing out games against the Warriors. Starter? Of course.


With Lebron and PG13 I agree, but Julius Randle can't shoot or defend to be a better option, Nance is too shy to close the games, we need someone with bigger balls to take the open shot when it is there and Kuzma don't have the strenght to play small ball center.

I believe Lopez is going to close most games except those when it is clear he is struggling with his matchup.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject:

nash wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I love Brook but there is no way he's closing out games against the Warriors. Starter? Of course.


With Lebron and PG13 I agree, but Julius Randle can't shoot or defend to be a better option, Nance is too shy to close the games, we need someone with bigger balls to take the open shot when it is there and Kuzma don't have the strenght to play small ball center.

I believe Lopez is going to close most games except those when it is clear he is struggling with his matchup.


Randle has been the one closing games, often as small ball center.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject:

nash wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I love Brook but there is no way he's closing out games against the Warriors. Starter? Of course.


With Lebron and PG13 I agree, but Julius Randle can't shoot or defend to be a better option, Nance is too shy to close the games, we need someone with bigger balls to take the open shot when it is there and Kuzma don't have the strenght to play small ball center.

I believe Lopez is going to close most games except those when it is clear he is struggling with his matchup.


Maybe this year but not if we have lbj/pg13.

Most likely

Lonzo
Pg13
Ingram
Lbj
Nance
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