How well do you think CP3/Harden will play together?
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Krispy Kreme
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: How well do you think CP3/Harden will play together?

I don't think this will work. Not only are both players among the top in the NBA for how often they handle the ball, but both are among the top in terms of how many PNR they initiate. ALSO, both players are not really good without the ball.

In previous scenarios when you grouped multiple players that liked to handle the ball, you always had 1 of the 2 players that were willing to be the "Beta" that was good off the ball.

When Lebron and Wade teamed up, Wade was good off the ball and didn't always need the ball in his hands like Harden and CP3 do.

When we teamed up our Fab 4 in 2004, GP was a hot mess because he liked to handle the ball and couldn't. Malone didn't need the ball, so he was fine. Shaq and Kobe fought like they always do.

Not to mention Harden is in his prime and to me, he cares more about his stats and his brand than winning. Just my opinion here. He doesn't carry himself around like a winner. He's all flash, no substance (to me).


I think Westbrook and Paul George will have a much smoother time playing with one another than Houston will.

At best, Houston is a 3 seed next year, and gets bounced versus the Spurs or Thunder in the 2nd round.

I'll bump this post after the playoffs next year. If I'm wrong, then I'll eat crow.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject:

i think they will be ok. but i dont believe either of them will make the other one any better. since neither one of them are that great at playing off the ball.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject:

They won't get past the 2nd round. I think Houston made a mistake going after a ball dominant pg and a slow one at that. D'Antoni should've gone after shooters like Gallinari, Reddick, and Crawford.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:46 pm    Post subject:

I think they be ok, just increase the pace even more and have enough touches for both of them.

The real question is what would happened to CP3/DeAndre State Farm commercial, one of them gotta go
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject:

Scoffs wrote:
They won't get past the 2nd round. I think Houston made a mistake going after a ball dominant pg and a slow one at that. D'Antoni should've gone after shooters like Gallinari, Reddick, and Crawford.


?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject:

Tag team flop-a-thon.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:35 pm    Post subject:

The hole in the rocket offense is everything hinging on one initiator, add a second and you can make the defense pick a poison. Both guys can work off ball and set up to attack when the defense moves to the other.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:14 pm    Post subject:

I'm lost on why folks keep saying both aren't good off the ball.

1) The data disagrees. They both have great shooting numbers off the ball.

2) You rarely get to see #1 because neither has been playing next to a great playmaker in years, so it made no sense to take the ball out of their hands.

Harden played next to Westbrook and Durant. He will be fine giving the ball up for CP3. Who was he supposed to give it up to in prior Houston seasons? Lin? Beverly? Ariza? Parsons?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject:

Your guess is as good as mine.
I've watched the NBA since the 90s. Can't remember 1 team,, I can compare to Houston.
Given who their coach is I expect them to be a top 5 offense in the league. With a top 3 record in the west. And they'll underachieve in the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:53 am    Post subject:

I think most of the time this could never work but if anyone can make it work it's D'Antoni.
We've seen D'Antoni's teams with quality PG's so far and he can make those teams amazing. Now he has two such players on his team. Could be amazing.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:32 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Your guess is as good as mine.
I've watched the NBA since the 90s. Can't remember 1 team,, I can compare to Houston.
Given who their coach is I expect them to be a top 5 offense in the league. With a top 3 record in the west. And they'll underachieve in the playoffs.


If you are a 3 seed and lose to the 1 or 2, have you underachieved? GS is the overwhelming favorite to win the title. They play in the West.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject:

I think they win less games than last year, but that's mostly just because I think there will be a significant period of those 2 "figuring each other out". Harden hasn't played with another primary ball handler since OKC, and back then he was nowhere near the player he is now. CP3 hasn't played with another primary ball handler, well, ever.

I think they'll eventually "get it", end up the 3 or 4 seed, and lose to GSW or SAS in the 2nd round, which isn't anything to sneeze at.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject:

Harden can still be dominant off-the-ball.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:56 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
I'm lost on why folks keep saying both aren't good off the ball.

1) The data disagrees. They both have great shooting numbers off the ball.

2) You rarely get to see #1 because neither has been playing next to a great playmaker in years, so it made no sense to take the ball out of their hands.

Harden played next to Westbrook and Durant. He will be fine giving the ball up for CP3. Who was he supposed to give it up to in prior Houston seasons? Lin? Beverly? Ariza? Parsons?



Just because Harden and CP3 are good or decent at spot up shooting, then it doesn't mean they will thrive off the ball, much less be happy with an off the ball role.

Harden was clearly a role player with the Thunder. He wasn't THE James Harden he is now. If you think he'd be happy with an off the ball role, you're dreaming (pun intended).

Both players haven't had a significant off the ball role in years. CP3 i don't think he ever has. Harden was back in 2012.. and even then, he loved handling the ball with the bench unit.

You can't compare Harden back to 2012. It's comical. He's a different player now, and his mind set is different.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject:

Krispy Kreme wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
I'm lost on why folks keep saying both aren't good off the ball.

1) The data disagrees. They both have great shooting numbers off the ball.

2) You rarely get to see #1 because neither has been playing next to a great playmaker in years, so it made no sense to take the ball out of their hands.

Harden played next to Westbrook and Durant. He will be fine giving the ball up for CP3. Who was he supposed to give it up to in prior Houston seasons? Lin? Beverly? Ariza? Parsons?



Just because Harden and CP3 are good or decent at spot up shooting, then it doesn't mean they will thrive off the ball, much less be happy with an off the ball role.

Harden was clearly a role player with the Thunder. He wasn't THE James Harden he is now. If you think he'd be happy with an off the ball role, you're dreaming (pun intended).

Both players haven't had a significant off the ball role in years. CP3 i don't think he ever has. Harden was back in 2012.. and even then, he loved handling the ball with the bench unit.

You can't compare Harden back to 2012. It's comical. He's a different player now, and his mind set is different.


His mindset isn't different at all. In OKC he was fine coming off the bench and playing with other stars. He just wanted his $$. He recruited CP3 here and has been asking to play off the ball more like he did in OKC. Again, he recruited him here. He has no issue sharing the ball (mindset).

Harden wasn't a role player in OKC. He was the 6th man of the year and made the Dream Team. He got traded and instantly avg 25 a night and took us to the playoffs without a great supporting cast. There was no growth period from leaving OKC to stardom in Houston. It was clear that he was just accepting a smaller role. Now he has improved since he got here, but nothing indicates that he would have a problem with a different role. Didn't he just switch positions last season? Didn't he recruit CP3?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:19 am    Post subject:

CP3 will average 14p 10a
JH 22p 3 a
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:03 am    Post subject:

I have no idea if it will work, much of that depends on the Coach.

But Harden did NOT flourish when he played with Westbrook...

Time will tell.. but they should win at least 50 games...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Krispy Kreme wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
I'm lost on why folks keep saying both aren't good off the ball.

1) The data disagrees. They both have great shooting numbers off the ball.

2) You rarely get to see #1 because neither has been playing next to a great playmaker in years, so it made no sense to take the ball out of their hands.

Harden played next to Westbrook and Durant. He will be fine giving the ball up for CP3. Who was he supposed to give it up to in prior Houston seasons? Lin? Beverly? Ariza? Parsons?



Just because Harden and CP3 are good or decent at spot up shooting, then it doesn't mean they will thrive off the ball, much less be happy with an off the ball role.

Harden was clearly a role player with the Thunder. He wasn't THE James Harden he is now. If you think he'd be happy with an off the ball role, you're dreaming (pun intended).

Both players haven't had a significant off the ball role in years. CP3 i don't think he ever has. Harden was back in 2012.. and even then, he loved handling the ball with the bench unit.

You can't compare Harden back to 2012. It's comical. He's a different player now, and his mind set is different.


His mindset isn't different at all. In OKC he was fine coming off the bench and playing with other stars. He just wanted his $$. He recruited CP3 here and has been asking to play off the ball more like he did in OKC. Again, he recruited him here. He has no issue sharing the ball (mindset).

Harden wasn't a role player in OKC. He was the 6th man of the year and made the Dream Team. He got traded and instantly avg 25 a night and took us to the playoffs without a great supporting cast. There was no growth period from leaving OKC to stardom in Houston. It was clear that he was just accepting a smaller role. Now he has improved since he got here, but nothing indicates that he would have a problem with a different role. Didn't he just switch positions last season? Didn't he recruit CP3?



yeah, his mind set is different. he's a superstar now. he has his own brand. he wasn't as big on and off the court with OKC.

he was more of a role player in OKC than he was with houston. point is, he wasn't a #1 option back then. he wasn't a superstar with OKC. he is now. Huge difference. Huge. so play with words all you like. doesn't help your weak argument.

let's make it interesting. what's your prediction? playoff seeding and then how far the rockets get.

anything less than a WCF spot will be a failure, as the rockets made it to the 2nd round last year. so expectation is that they will go farther with CP3, right?

so, go ahead. prediction?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:22 am    Post subject:

Would any team be interested in trading for Harden if the CP3/Harden duo doesn't work out?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:54 am    Post subject:

The Rockets likely won't be better than the Thunder or Spurs.

They are going to get bounced in the 2nd round as it stands now.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:11 am    Post subject:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject:

Krispy Kreme wrote:

yeah, his mind set is different. he's a superstar now. he has his own brand. he wasn't as big on and off the court with OKC.


I'm referring to his mindset on sharing the basketball or adapting his game for the team. He was a superstar with a brand last summer when his coach asked him to switch from SG to PG. He's a current superstar with a brand and he still recruited another star PG to the team. Are you not aware that he was fine switching positions last year and recruited CP3 this year?

Krispy Kreme wrote:

let's make it interesting. what's your prediction? playoff seeding and then how far the rockets get.


I predict the Rockets will have the #3 seed and possibly make the WCF's. Those teams in GS and SA are pretty great too last I checked. Do you think the Rockets have more talent than either of those teams?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject:

Krispy Kreme wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Krispy Kreme wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
I'm lost on why folks keep saying both aren't good off the ball.

1) The data disagrees. They both have great shooting numbers off the ball.

2) You rarely get to see #1 because neither has been playing next to a great playmaker in years, so it made no sense to take the ball out of their hands.

Harden played next to Westbrook and Durant. He will be fine giving the ball up for CP3. Who was he supposed to give it up to in prior Houston seasons? Lin? Beverly? Ariza? Parsons?



Just because Harden and CP3 are good or decent at spot up shooting, then it doesn't mean they will thrive off the ball, much less be happy with an off the ball role.

Harden was clearly a role player with the Thunder. He wasn't THE James Harden he is now. If you think he'd be happy with an off the ball role, you're dreaming (pun intended).

Both players haven't had a significant off the ball role in years. CP3 i don't think he ever has. Harden was back in 2012.. and even then, he loved handling the ball with the bench unit.

You can't compare Harden back to 2012. It's comical. He's a different player now, and his mind set is different.


His mindset isn't different at all. In OKC he was fine coming off the bench and playing with other stars. He just wanted his $$. He recruited CP3 here and has been asking to play off the ball more like he did in OKC. Again, he recruited him here. He has no issue sharing the ball (mindset).

Harden wasn't a role player in OKC. He was the 6th man of the year and made the Dream Team. He got traded and instantly avg 25 a night and took us to the playoffs without a great supporting cast. There was no growth period from leaving OKC to stardom in Houston. It was clear that he was just accepting a smaller role. Now he has improved since he got here, but nothing indicates that he would have a problem with a different role. Didn't he just switch positions last season? Didn't he recruit CP3?



yeah, his mind set is different. he's a superstar now. he has his own brand. he wasn't as big on and off the court with OKC.

he was more of a role player in OKC than he was with houston. point is, he wasn't a #1 option back then. he wasn't a superstar with OKC. he is now. Huge difference. Huge. so play with words all you like. doesn't help your weak argument.

let's make it interesting. what's your prediction? playoff seeding and then how far the rockets get.

anything less than a WCF spot will be a failure, as the rockets made it to the 2nd round last year. so expectation is that they will go farther with CP3, right?

so, go ahead. prediction?


I know you weren't asking me but there are 3 teams fairly tightly grouped 2-4 IMO: Houston, San Antonio, and the much improved (on paper anyway) Thunder. Could see any of those 3 defeat either of the others for 2nd seed and head to head ina playoff matchup, although I'd give the slight edge to Houston right now on seeding, and head to head vs OKC with a tossup vs the Spurs.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:06 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Krispy Kreme wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Krispy Kreme wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
I'm lost on why folks keep saying both aren't good off the ball.

1) The data disagrees. They both have great shooting numbers off the ball.

2) You rarely get to see #1 because neither has been playing next to a great playmaker in years, so it made no sense to take the ball out of their hands.

Harden played next to Westbrook and Durant. He will be fine giving the ball up for CP3. Who was he supposed to give it up to in prior Houston seasons? Lin? Beverly? Ariza? Parsons?



Just because Harden and CP3 are good or decent at spot up shooting, then it doesn't mean they will thrive off the ball, much less be happy with an off the ball role.

Harden was clearly a role player with the Thunder. He wasn't THE James Harden he is now. If you think he'd be happy with an off the ball role, you're dreaming (pun intended).

Both players haven't had a significant off the ball role in years. CP3 i don't think he ever has. Harden was back in 2012.. and even then, he loved handling the ball with the bench unit.

You can't compare Harden back to 2012. It's comical. He's a different player now, and his mind set is different.


His mindset isn't different at all. In OKC he was fine coming off the bench and playing with other stars. He just wanted his $$. He recruited CP3 here and has been asking to play off the ball more like he did in OKC. Again, he recruited him here. He has no issue sharing the ball (mindset).

Harden wasn't a role player in OKC. He was the 6th man of the year and made the Dream Team. He got traded and instantly avg 25 a night and took us to the playoffs without a great supporting cast. There was no growth period from leaving OKC to stardom in Houston. It was clear that he was just accepting a smaller role. Now he has improved since he got here, but nothing indicates that he would have a problem with a different role. Didn't he just switch positions last season? Didn't he recruit CP3?



yeah, his mind set is different. he's a superstar now. he has his own brand. he wasn't as big on and off the court with OKC.

he was more of a role player in OKC than he was with houston. point is, he wasn't a #1 option back then. he wasn't a superstar with OKC. he is now. Huge difference. Huge. so play with words all you like. doesn't help your weak argument.

let's make it interesting. what's your prediction? playoff seeding and then how far the rockets get.

anything less than a WCF spot will be a failure, as the rockets made it to the 2nd round last year. so expectation is that they will go farther with CP3, right?

so, go ahead. prediction?


I know you weren't asking me but there are 3 teams fairly tightly grouped 2-4 IMO: Houston, San Antonio, and the much improved (on paper anyway) Thunder. Could see any of those 3 defeat either of the others for 2nd seed and head to head ina playoff matchup, although I'd give the slight edge to Houston right now on seeding, and head to head vs OKC with a tossup vs the Spurs.


You put Houston and OKC above Cleveland?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject:

If Durant and Curry are both injured during a series, they could beat the Warriors...
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