Excellent Pippen retrospective
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:46 pm    Post subject: Excellent Pippen retrospective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1hfI8kjriM&feature=youtu.be&t=1

==

It's amazing a player that physically gifted (perfect bball frame) and talented was never really considered a true superstar if you're a strict constructionist who believes there were really very few of those (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Shaq, post-2000 Kobe types). Scott Pippen was not on their level, yet he was excellent at nearly every aspect of the game like Jordan. There were guys who DID carry that superstar label from fans and media who couldn't do all the things Scott could. His only weaknesses were personality issues (an idiot/pouter and rabblerouser at his worst) and he wasn't a consistent clutch performer though I think it was impossible to develop and hone those plays with Jordan as his teammate. He himself recently said he wasn't gifted with a "clutch gene". Mike once accused Scott and Horace of having puckered arses late in games (think of those two throwing the ball to Paxson for that G6 shot at PHX like a hot potato). He got mentally tougher at the end of his career and started dishing out to others the annoying crap that used to distract and bother him in his early years (Rodman, chiefly). Remember him hacking Kobe's rib in a playoff gm and starting little scuffles with Fox/Salley/etc in 2000.

But tell me this dude wasn't a DPOY. Please... That category is forever tainted for his exclusion. He was a condor.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Excellent Pippen retrospective

non-player zealot wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1hfI8kjriM&feature=youtu.be&t=1

==

It's amazing a player that physically gifted (perfect bball frame) and talented was never really considered a true superstar if you're a strict constructionist who believes there were really very few of those (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Shaq, post-2000 Kobe types). Scott Pippen was not on their level, yet he was excellent at nearly every aspect of the game like Jordan. There were guys who DID carry that superstar label from fans and media who couldn't do all the things Scott could. His only weaknesses were personality issues (an idiot/pouter and rabblerouser at his worst) and he wasn't a consistent clutch performer though I think it was impossible to develop and hone those plays with Jordan as his teammate. He himself recently said he wasn't gifted with a "clutch gene". Mike once accused Scott and Horace of having puckered arses late in games (think of those two throwing the ball to Paxson for that G6 shot at PHX like a hot potato). He got mentally tougher at the end of his career and started dishing out to others the annoying crap that used to distract and bother him in his early years (Rodman, chiefly). Remember him hacking Kobe's rib in a playoff gm and starting little scuffles with Fox/Salley/etc in 2000.

But tell me this dude wasn't a DPOY. Please... That category is forever tainted for his exclusion. He was a condor.


One issue with Scottie is he left the Bulls at age 32 and really didn't have a whole lot of success after that. He didn't make another all-star team. He team up with Barkley and Hakeem and got bounced in the first round. He went to a stacked Portland team and never did anything. He'll always be regarded as a great #2.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Excellent Pippen retrospective

activeverb wrote:
non-player zealot wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1hfI8kjriM&feature=youtu.be&t=1

==

It's amazing a player that physically gifted (perfect bball frame) and talented was never really considered a true superstar if you're a strict constructionist who believes there were really very few of those (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Shaq, post-2000 Kobe types). Scott Pippen was not on their level, yet he was excellent at nearly every aspect of the game like Jordan. There were guys who DID carry that superstar label from fans and media who couldn't do all the things Scott could. His only weaknesses were personality issues (an idiot/pouter and rabblerouser at his worst) and he wasn't a consistent clutch performer though I think it was impossible to develop and hone those plays with Jordan as his teammate. He himself recently said he wasn't gifted with a "clutch gene". Mike once accused Scott and Horace of having puckered arses late in games (think of those two throwing the ball to Paxson for that G6 shot at PHX like a hot potato). He got mentally tougher at the end of his career and started dishing out to others the annoying crap that used to distract and bother him in his early years (Rodman, chiefly). Remember him hacking Kobe's rib in a playoff gm and starting little scuffles with Fox/Salley/etc in 2000.

But tell me this dude wasn't a DPOY. Please... That category is forever tainted for his exclusion. He was a condor.


One issue with Scottie is he left the Bulls at age 32 and really didn't have a whole lot of success after that. He didn't make another all-star team. He team up with Barkley and Hakeem and got bounced in the first round. He went to a stacked Portland team and never did anything. He'll always be regarded as a great #2.
when pip left the bulls he was injured. whatever you saw post bulls blame it on the injuries.

Lets never forget the year mike didnt play pip was balling like a superstar should, which tells you he was always a superstar. but since he had the biggest of them all on his team his light was blanketed by jordan's.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Excellent Pippen retrospective

splashmtn wrote:


Lets never forget the year mike didnt play pip was balling like a superstar should, which tells you he was always a superstar. but since he had the biggest of them all on his team his light was blanketed by jordan's.


I look at Pippen and Worthy in the same way -- I'm not sure if having superstar teammates made them look better or worse than they were.

My gut sense is either had spent their career as the #1 guy their reputations would be lower than they are now.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Excellent Pippen retrospective

splashmtn wrote:

Lets never forget the year mike didnt play pip was balling like a superstar should, which tells you he was always a superstar. but since he had the biggest of them all on his team his light was blanketed by jordan's.


The Bulls replaced Michael Jordan with Pete Myers in 1993-94 and they only lost 2 more games than the previous season. Then they got hosed on a call in the closing seconds of a close out game in the 2nd round that would have put them up against the Pacers, and likely have seen them in the Finals. The difference of having Jordan with Pippen is +2 games and favorable calls from the refs.
Jordan never won anything without Pippen either, but Scottie gets overlooked despite the evidence of the 93-94 campaign.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Excellent Pippen retrospective

RG73 wrote:
splashmtn wrote:

Lets never forget the year mike didnt play pip was balling like a superstar should, which tells you he was always a superstar. but since he had the biggest of them all on his team his light was blanketed by jordan's.


The Bulls replaced Michael Jordan with Pete Myers in 1993-94 and they only lost 2 more games than the previous season. n.


To be fair, it's not like they came kept the same roster and just replaced Jordan with Myers. They had quite a few changes. Meyer started but only played 24 minutes and game. He split time with Steve Kerr, who was a new edition. They also added Toni kukoc and some Frontline help. And the additional playing time for BJ Armstrong allowed him to turn into an All-Star.

The big thing was their point differential. Instead of winning by an average of 6 points a game they only won by an average of 3 points a game. They had much less margin for error, which is really one reason they couldn't get past the Knicks in the playoffs. They suffered from some bad calls in that playoffs, but it's possible that the Jordan Bulls would have been able to overcome those bad calls more easily.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Excellent Pippen retrospective

activeverb wrote:
splashmtn wrote:


Lets never forget the year mike didnt play pip was balling like a superstar should, which tells you he was always a superstar. but since he had the biggest of them all on his team his light was blanketed by jordan's.


I look at Pippen and Worthy in the same way -- I'm not sure if having superstar teammates made them look better or worse than they were.

My gut sense is either had spent their career as the #1 guy their reputations would be lower than they are now.


I doubt it could be lower. Pippen and Worthy's reputations are always as the #2 guy. Guys with less overall success such as Barkley and Malone are rated more highly.

Pippen led the '99 Blazers to G7 with a 20 point lead late in the 3Q. Yes, the Blazers choked. But it's not as if the Laker superstars won it either. It took a bizarre 3-point hot streak from Brian Shaw late 3Q, early 4Q to put them in position. Without that, it's conceivable that the Blazers win and eventually win the title.

Plus the '83 Bulls without Jordan went extremely far as well. And that's without Jordan. Pippen went much further without Jordan then the other way around.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:51 pm    Post subject:

Remember the Scottie Pippen to the Lakers trade rumor back in the summer of '99? It was for Glen Rice. The Rockets didn't want Rice. I wished the trade happened.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Excellent Pippen retrospective

activeverb wrote:
non-player zealot wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1hfI8kjriM&feature=youtu.be&t=1

==

It's amazing a player that physically gifted (perfect bball frame) and talented was never really considered a true superstar if you're a strict constructionist who believes there were really very few of those (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Shaq, post-2000 Kobe types). Scott Pippen was not on their level, yet he was excellent at nearly every aspect of the game like Jordan. There were guys who DID carry that superstar label from fans and media who couldn't do all the things Scott could. His only weaknesses were personality issues (an idiot/pouter and rabblerouser at his worst) and he wasn't a consistent clutch performer though I think it was impossible to develop and hone those plays with Jordan as his teammate. He himself recently said he wasn't gifted with a "clutch gene". Mike once accused Scott and Horace of having puckered arses late in games (think of those two throwing the ball to Paxson for that G6 shot at PHX like a hot potato). He got mentally tougher at the end of his career and started dishing out to others the annoying crap that used to distract and bother him in his early years (Rodman, chiefly). Remember him hacking Kobe's rib in a playoff gm and starting little scuffles with Fox/Salley/etc in 2000.

But tell me this dude wasn't a DPOY. Please... That category is forever tainted for his exclusion. He was a condor.


One issue with Scottie is he left the Bulls at age 32 and really didn't have a whole lot of success after that. He didn't make another all-star team. He team up with Barkley and Hakeem and got bounced in the first round. He went to a stacked Portland team and never did anything. He'll always be regarded as a great #2.


Yup, there was a time when he was legitimately considered a top-5 player regardless of his status as a sidekick. But his reputation took a hit with those failures.

With Portland, as stacked as those squads were, there was no "go-to" guy at the end of the game.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Excellent Pippen retrospective

composite wrote:
Pippen led the '99 Blazers to G7 with a 20 point lead late in the 3Q. Yes, the Blazers choked. But it's not as if the Laker superstars won it either. It took a bizarre 3-point hot streak from Brian Shaw late 3Q, early 4Q to put them in position. Without that, it's conceivable that the Blazers win and eventually win the title.


Lots of stuff is conceivable. All that matters is what actually happened.


composite wrote:
Pippen and Worthy's reputations are always as the #2 guy. Guys with less overall success such as Barkley and Malone are rated more highly.



That's in the eye of the beholder. Some would say Barkley and Malone had more individual success, but Pippen had more team success.


composite wrote:
Plus the '83 Bulls without Jordan went extremely far as well. And that's without Jordan. .


They finished second in the central division, and then got knocked out of the second round of the playoffs. I wouldn't consider that going "extremely far."

The most you could say is the Bulls would have gone far if not for the officiating in game 5 of the Knicks series, but that leads us into woulda-shoulda land in which all discussions quickly fall apart


Last edited by activeverb on Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:53 am    Post subject:

Pippen is the superstar version of NBA Finals MVP Andre Iguodala
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:21 am    Post subject:

For me Pip is a superstar.
The issue here is, as said above, he played a few uneventual seasons, and retired at an advanced age.
Old version of Pippen is what many saw.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject:

Is Pippen above or below someone like Paul Pierce?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:19 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Is Pippen above or below someone like Paul Pierce?



Pippen is easily above Pierce. Most people would rank Pippen in the top 30, and Pierce in the top 50.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Is Pippen above or below someone like Paul Pierce?



Pippen is easily above Pierce. Most people would rank Pippen in the top 30, and Pierce in the top 50.


It's weird that Pierce is viewed as an iconic franchise player and finals MVP, whereas Pippen is viewed merely as a sidekick despite having been the superior player. I guess you could make the argument that KG was the best player on that Celtics championship team, though.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
It's weird that Pierce is viewed as an iconic franchise player and finals MVP, whereas Pippen is viewed merely as a sidekick despite having been the superior player. .



Pierce was certainly the franchise player for Boston for about 15 years, but I wouldn't say he was ever viewed as iconic outside of Boston.

Also, I don't think that Pippen is viewed as "merely" a sidekick. He made 7 all-NBA teams and the all-time Top 50 team. He gets his due.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject:

Pippen was that rare player who was a jack of all trades, and also a master of one: defense. He was one of the smartest defensive players ever. He was also the Bulls' de facto PG, which allowed Jordan to conserve energy and shoot 50%.

It's crazy how many great defensive players the Bulls had during their 2nd 3-peat. I think the 96 Bulls were the greatest defensive team in NBA history.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Excellent Pippen retrospective

composite wrote:
activeverb wrote:
splashmtn wrote:


Lets never forget the year mike didnt play pip was balling like a superstar should, which tells you he was always a superstar. but since he had the biggest of them all on his team his light was blanketed by jordan's.


I look at Pippen and Worthy in the same way -- I'm not sure if having superstar teammates made them look better or worse than they were.

My gut sense is either had spent their career as the #1 guy their reputations would be lower than they are now.


I doubt it could be lower. Pippen and Worthy's reputations are always as the #2 guy. Guys with less overall success such as Barkley and Malone are rated more highly.

Pippen led the '99 Blazers to G7 with a 20 point lead late in the 3Q. Yes, the Blazers choked. But it's not as if the Laker superstars won it either. It took a bizarre 3-point hot streak from Brian Shaw late 3Q, early 4Q to put them in position. Without that, it's conceivable that the Blazers win and eventually win the title.

Plus the '83 Bulls without Jordan went extremely far as well. And that's without Jordan. Pippen went much further without Jordan then the other way around.


This is separate from the overall topic, but I think the 2000 Blazers choked at the beginning of that series for whatever reason and then woke up too late. The "Too Deep vs Two Deep" game where the Lakas blew their doors off and Sheed got whacked for staring. Lakers under Phil fortunately realized that Gm1 was every bit as important as Gm3,4,5,6,7. The winning margins of that series and 2002 Kings was an easier-than-expected Gm1 win. Neither Porty, nor Sac were prepared for those games. Portland blew another 17 pt or so lead in Gm3 at home and lost on the Harper shot and Kobe block and then just blew Gm4 completely. What a Jekyll n Hyde team. That was a team that could and did beat the Lakers at Staples on any given night which was too much for almost any other team to hope for in those days. Thank God they were as bizarre as they were. If they had their heads on right, no way the Lakers would've competed for 7 gms much less win 4 of them. Two of those were 15-17 pt comebacks, one in the 4th Q of course. Leadership deficit, musta been. Maybe Pip tried to rangle them in, but I have to admit that would be a nearly impossible task for any one guy considering their best player was schizophrenic. Four years down the road among a group of solid personalities, Sheed killed us.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
activeverb wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Is Pippen above or below someone like Paul Pierce?



Pippen is easily above Pierce. Most people would rank Pippen in the top 30, and Pierce in the top 50.


It's weird that Pierce is viewed as an iconic franchise player and finals MVP, whereas Pippen is viewed merely as a sidekick despite having been the superior player. I guess you could make the argument that KG was the best player on that Celtics championship team, though.


What about these guys vs pippen?
Klay Thompson
Dwayne Wade
Kawhi Leonard
Allen Iverson
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:16 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
activeverb wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Is Pippen above or below someone like Paul Pierce?



Pippen is easily above Pierce. Most people would rank Pippen in the top 30, and Pierce in the top 50.


It's weird that Pierce is viewed as an iconic franchise player and finals MVP, whereas Pippen is viewed merely as a sidekick despite having been the superior player. I guess you could make the argument that KG was the best player on that Celtics championship team, though.


What about these guys vs pippen?
Klay Thompson
Dwayne Wade
Kawhi Leonard
Allen Iverson


Pippen and Wade are probably about equivalent, though I think most people would rank Pippen right above him. On most rankings, I see them no more than three spots apart.

Iverson is next, a ways behind those two.

Too early to say about Kawhi.

Klay isn't even in the conversation.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
activeverb wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Is Pippen above or below someone like Paul Pierce?



Pippen is easily above Pierce. Most people would rank Pippen in the top 30, and Pierce in the top 50.


It's weird that Pierce is viewed as an iconic franchise player and finals MVP, whereas Pippen is viewed merely as a sidekick despite having been the superior player. I guess you could make the argument that KG was the best player on that Celtics championship team, though.


What about these guys vs pippen?
Klay Thompson
Dwayne Wade
Kawhi Leonard
Allen Iverson


Pippen and Wade are probably about equivalent, though I think most people would rank Pippen right above him. On most rankings, I see them no more than three spots apart.

Iverson is next, a ways behind those two.

Too early to say about Kawhi.

Klay isn't even in the conversation.


I would put Wade above Pippen. Wade is the third best SG of all-time behind Jordan and Kobe and a Finals MVP. 30 PPG on 50+ FG% during his prime.

Iverson is more of an "entertainer" rather than someone who actually had a significant impact on games. Sort of like a rich man's Nate Robinson.

Too early to say with Kawhi.

Thompson isn't even remotely close. He's not even Ray Allen level.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
activeverb wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Is Pippen above or below someone like Paul Pierce?



Pippen is easily above Pierce. Most people would rank Pippen in the top 30, and Pierce in the top 50.


It's weird that Pierce is viewed as an iconic franchise player and finals MVP, whereas Pippen is viewed merely as a sidekick despite having been the superior player. I guess you could make the argument that KG was the best player on that Celtics championship team, though.


What about these guys vs pippen?
Klay Thompson
Dwayne Wade
Kawhi Leonard
Allen Iverson


Pippen and Wade are probably about equivalent, though I think most people would rank Pippen right above him. On most rankings, I see them no more than three spots apart.

Iverson is next, a ways behind those two.

Too early to say about Kawhi.

Klay isn't even in the conversation.


I would put Wade above Pippen. Wade is the third best SG of all-time behind Jordan and Kobe and a Finals MVP. 30 PPG on 50+ FG% during his prime.

Iverson is more of an "entertainer" rather than someone who actually had a significant impact on games. Sort of like a rich man's Nate Robinson.

Too early to say with Kawhi.

Thompson isn't even remotely close. He's not even Ray Allen level.

C'mon man, AI carried those 76ers squads for so many years, and single handedly made sure they didn't get swept against the juggernaut 01 lakers. His impact on the floor was undeniable, he just never really had a shot at playing with a legit contender outside of a few seasons.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:45 pm    Post subject:

I wonder what kind of stats he would've put up if he were played as a tall traditional PG in another offense.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
activeverb wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Is Pippen above or below someone like Paul Pierce?



Pippen is easily above Pierce. Most people would rank Pippen in the top 30, and Pierce in the top 50.


It's weird that Pierce is viewed as an iconic franchise player and finals MVP, whereas Pippen is viewed merely as a sidekick despite having been the superior player. I guess you could make the argument that KG was the best player on that Celtics championship team, though.


What about these guys vs pippen?
Klay Thompson
Dwayne Wade
Kawhi Leonard
Allen Iverson


Pippen and Wade are probably about equivalent, though I think most people would rank Pippen right above him. On most rankings, I see them no more than three spots apart.

Iverson is next, a ways behind those two.

Too early to say about Kawhi.

Klay isn't even in the conversation.


I would put Wade above Pippen. Wade is the third best SG of all-time behind Jordan and Kobe and a Finals MVP. 30 PPG on 50+ FG% during his prime.

Iverson is more of an "entertainer" rather than someone who actually had a significant impact on games. Sort of like a rich man's Nate Robinson.

Too early to say with Kawhi.

Thompson isn't even remotely close. He's not even Ray Allen level.

C'mon man, AI carried those 76ers squads for so many years, and single handedly made sure they didn't get swept against the juggernaut 01 lakers. His impact on the floor was undeniable, he just never really had a shot at playing with a legit contender outside of a few seasons.


Iverson could've been as successful as Isiah Thomas (the Pistons guy, not Celtics guy) if he had the right setup.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: Excellent Pippen retrospective

non-player zealot wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1hfI8kjriM&feature=youtu.be&t=1

==

It's amazing a player that physically gifted (perfect bball frame) and talented was never really considered a true superstar if you're a strict constructionist who believes there were really very few of those (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Shaq, post-2000 Kobe types). Scott Pippen was not on their level, yet he was excellent at nearly every aspect of the game like Jordan. There were guys who DID carry that superstar label from fans and media who couldn't do all the things Scott could. His only weaknesses were personality issues (an idiot/pouter and rabblerouser at his worst) and he wasn't a consistent clutch performer though I think it was impossible to develop and hone those plays with Jordan as his teammate. He himself recently said he wasn't gifted with a "clutch gene". Mike once accused Scott and Horace of having puckered arses late in games (think of those two throwing the ball to Paxson for that G6 shot at PHX like a hot potato). He got mentally tougher at the end of his career and started dishing out to others the annoying crap that used to distract and bother him in his early years (Rodman, chiefly). Remember him hacking Kobe's rib in a playoff gm and starting little scuffles with Fox/Salley/etc in 2000.

But tell me this dude wasn't a DPOY. Please... That category is forever tainted for his exclusion. He was a condor.


And of course he shut down Magic in '91 Finals.

Loved Pip and his game. I remember John Bach (cc: Lowest_Merion) and the Bulls' doberman defense of the early 1990s, which was Pip and Horace Grant mostly. Obviously Jordan did his thing on D as well.

Regarding some of the comments on the 1994 Knicks-Bulls series,it should be noted that it wasn't a closeout game. And you'll see other places people saying it would have put the Bulls in the Finals. As AV said it was game 5 in a 2-2 series. Do the Bulls have a big advantage if they go up 3-2 in that series, with the next game in Chicago? Of course. We've seen a million series where a team wins a big game 5 and closes it out next game at home. But it was hardly a sure thing. And then there was still the ECF and a tough Pacers team, even if they would have been favored.

One of my favorite images of Pip is him slamming down on the towels wrapped in plastic or whatever as the cameras followed him into the locker room after Lakers stole Game 3 in 2000.
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