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marga86
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:37 pm    Post subject:

Moses wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Moses wrote:
Messi is still #1, by far.


I'd take Ronaldo, and I don't consider it to be close. Reasonable minds can differ.

Moses wrote:
His game should age well too, he is reliant on his skill more than athleticism, so it won't fade as much as other players.


I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone say that about a player.


Curious what makes you take Ronnie instead? It's a very interesting debate most lads have in the UK, as football is such a big deal here.

I'd say that Ronaldo is a better athlete, freakish for a footballer. To me, Messi just has a level of skill to his game that no other player can replicate, he gets the same level of goals, but is involved in the creation of so many more.

It's interesting to compare Messi to a lot of players of similar style, what you notice is how many of those took their talents for granted and didn't take care of themselves physically (e.g. Maradona, Ronaldinho, Gazza, etc...), which I suppose is what will probably eventually set Messi apart as he ages.


I'd argue that he hasnt he hasnt been that great for about a year; i see his games and he doesnt have the same explosion.

I actually disagree that part of his came doesn't rely on athleticism, he has a fantastic change of pace, which is what usually helps him beat defenders... and depending on your definition of skill, i'd argue he is significantly less skilled than the likes of ronaldo (original), zidane, ronaldinho, etc., his game is predicated on his fantastic ability to dribble in tight spaces.. Again, it depends what you mean by "skill" -- i tend to think the likes of zidane or dinho when i think skill.

One aspect that messi is great at that no one mentions is his passing ability. I think he actually one ups most of the "greats" in that aspect, he can put through balls on the money
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject:

Messi banged more than 50 goals last season, top scorer in Europe's major leagues, how is that not great? Look at his El Classico performance last year too, he tore it up.

He is also Argentina's all time leading scorer. Greatest of respect to Pele and Maradona, but to me, the game has evolved a hell of a lot since they played, not sure either would have the same influence nowadays.

Messi does have an impressive change of pace, but his balance, his close control, his awareness and composure are what sets him apart. His touch is also immense, as is his passing.

I'd put Messi, Zidane and both Ronaldo ahead of Pele personally.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject:

Moses wrote:
Curious what makes you take Ronnie instead? It's a very interesting debate most lads have in the UK, as football is such a big deal here.

I'd say that Ronaldo is a better athlete, freakish for a footballer. To me, Messi just has a level of skill to his game that no other player can replicate, he gets the same level of goals, but is involved in the creation of so many more.

It's interesting to compare Messi to a lot of players of similar style, what you notice is how many of those took their talents for granted and didn't take care of themselves physically (e.g. Maradona, Ronaldinho, Gazza, etc...), which I suppose is what will probably eventually set Messi apart as he ages.


Reasonable minds can differ on this topic, and I do not discredit anything you are saying. However, I'm with Marga when it comes to Messi. He has spent his career as the tip of the Barcelona spear. Ronaldo got it done on two different teams in two leagues, holds the all-time scoring record in the UCL, dragged Portugal to the Euro '16 title, and won back to back UCL titles. He is starting to decline a little, but I'd still take him over Messi. But I won't criticize anyone who disagrees.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:46 pm    Post subject:

Here are 538's global club football rankings. Nothing jumps out at me as unreasonable.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/global-club-soccer-rankings/
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:14 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Here are 538's global club football rankings. Nothing jumps out at me as unreasonable.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/global-club-soccer-rankings/


Dortmund ahead of top 3 English teams? Atleti should be higher up. Tottenham getting slated for their dismal European showing.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject:

Top three are undisputed.

It remains to be seen how PSG does against good competition, because the French league is crap.

The rest of the top 10 are all interchangeable, IMO. English teams need to prove that they can compete on the highest level. We'll see.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject:

FC Barcelona can't even run their twitter account properly.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:52 pm    Post subject:

[quote="Wilt"]It remains to be seen how PSG does against good competition, because the French league is crap.
/quote] you mustn't seen the Spanish league then. It's only two teams.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject:

Conker wrote:
you mustn't seen the Spanish league then. It's only two teams.


Did you miss that Atletico Madrid have made two CL finals in the last four years (and won a league title in 2014), or that Sevilla has numerous Europa Leagues in the last several years? Other teams have made it far in European competitions. No one would deny that Madrid and Barcelona are the two most dominant teams in Spain, but it doesn't mean the rest of the league is crap.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:39 am    Post subject:

Barcelona goes to 138M pounds for Coutinho. However, it sounds like a lot of it is still money over time or contingent, so that number would seem to be more for PR purposes than anything else. The rumor is that LFC wants 100M pounds of real money.

I just don't see Coutinho being worth that much, but then Barcelona has made a lot of odd moves lately. This is a big part of what is driving the reported internal dissension. LFC might actually have Barca over the proverbial barrel right now, but LFC's own transfer strategy has been a mess.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:24 am    Post subject:

Moses wrote:
Messi banged more than 50 goals last season, top scorer in Europe's major leagues, how is that not great? Look at his El Classico performance last year too, he tore it up.

He is also Argentina's all time leading scorer. Greatest of respect to Pele and Maradona, but to me, the game has evolved a hell of a lot since they played, not sure either would have the same influence nowadays.

Messi does have an impressive change of pace, but his balance, his close control, his awareness and composure are what sets him apart. His touch is also immense, as is his passing.

I'd put Messi, Zidane and both Ronaldo ahead of Pele personally.


This is like saying that jordan wouldnt be good in today's league. It just doesnt make sense.

Sports science is so advanced today that a guy like pele would be an absolute monster, the guy had incredible core strength for someone who entered professional development at such a late age... in the 60s?

That's the thing, stats arent everything. Messi has not been good for argentina.. and he has had SEVERAL chances to capitalize and show up big, but hasnt. Everyone always has an excuse for him because he is quiet and appears to be humble.. Closest thing to maradona and pele, but unless he shows up big in Russia 2018, i doubt he will ever catch em
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:27 am    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
Top three are undisputed.

It remains to be seen how PSG does against good competition, because the French league is crap.

The rest of the top 10 are all interchangeable, IMO. English teams need to prove that they can compete on the highest level. We'll see.


I don't think barca can hold on to that 3rd spot.

United, PSG, Chelsea will probably surpass them if you ask me.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
Conker wrote:
you mustn't seen the Spanish league then. It's only two teams.


Did you miss that Atletico Madrid have made two CL finals in the last four years (and won a league title in 2014), or that Sevilla has numerous Europa Leagues in the last several years? Other teams have made it far in European competitions. No one would deny that Madrid and Barcelona are the two most dominant teams in Spain, but it doesn't mean the rest of the league is crap.


In my opinion, the problem with La Liga is that the country isn't big enough to field 20 first division teams. Germany has the right idea here, with 18 teams in the Bundesliga. And Germany is a lot more populous than Spain. I would say the same thing about England, but there is so much money in English football that even a lot of the minnows are pretty stout.

The problem with La Liga isn't the top half of the table. The problem is how fast things drop after that. By the time you get to the second division, you have B teams from the top half of the La Liga table. The second division in England contains teams that have played successfully in European competitions in recent times.

To some extent, this is driven by the TV deal in Spain, though that is becoming more equitable. This doesn't diminish what Barcelona and Real Madrid have done, but it makes a lot of people jaded about the La Liga.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject:

It used to be 22 teams in Spain at one point! But yeah, I agree. Should be 18.

Now we can debate which league has the better lower half, but I bet none of us will wake up early in the morning to watch Swansea vs Crystal Palace, or Augsburg vs Mainz, or Getafe vs Las Palmas.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:54 am    Post subject:

marga86 wrote:
Moses wrote:
Messi banged more than 50 goals last season, top scorer in Europe's major leagues, how is that not great? Look at his El Classico performance last year too, he tore it up.

He is also Argentina's all time leading scorer. Greatest of respect to Pele and Maradona, but to me, the game has evolved a hell of a lot since they played, not sure either would have the same influence nowadays.

Messi does have an impressive change of pace, but his balance, his close control, his awareness and composure are what sets him apart. His touch is also immense, as is his passing.

I'd put Messi, Zidane and both Ronaldo ahead of Pele personally.


This is like saying that jordan wouldnt be good in today's league. It just doesnt make sense.

Sports science is so advanced today that a guy like pele would be an absolute monster, the guy had incredible core strength for someone who entered professional development at such a late age... in the 60s?

That's the thing, stats arent everything. Messi has not been good for argentina.. and he has had SEVERAL chances to capitalize and show up big, but hasnt. Everyone always has an excuse for him because he is quiet and appears to be humble.. Closest thing to maradona and pele, but unless he shows up big in Russia 2018, i doubt he will ever catch em


We are talking about 50 years ago with Pele, the game of football has evolved a lot since then. The level of competition today is far greater than it was back then too, the levels of athleticism are different, the tempo is greater, the need for sports science and not just natural talent is greater.

Say what you will about Messi at international level, but 58 goals is still 58 goals, legit. He also would've won a World Cup against an incredible German team had it not been for Higuan missing a sitter. 😂

I respect anyone's opinion about football, I met all of my best friends when we were little kids playing on the same team, and we still play together now 20+ years later. Guess we're lucky to be around to watch so many unreal players, makes me realise why I love the game so much.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:09 am    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
It used to be 22 teams in Spain at one point! But yeah, I agree. Should be 18.

Now we can debate which league has the better lower half, but I bet none of us will wake up early in the morning to watch Swansea vs Crystal Palace, or Augsburg vs Mainz, or Getafe vs Las Palmas.


I couldn't possibly miss Brighton vs. Burnley.

Anyway, I found some stats to illustrate my point. Last year, the lowest payroll in the EPL was Burnley, averaging about $1.26M per player (page 27). 11 of the 20 teams in La Liga were below that number, with the lowest being Leganes at about $360k per player (page 33).

https://www.globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS%202016.pdf

Barcelona had over 20 times the payroll of Liganes, while Man U had about 6 times the payroll of Burnley. That's a big difference in terms of the competitiveness of a league. By the way, the ratios for Serie A and the Bundesliga are about 13:1 or 14:1. Not surprisingly, Ligue 1 has the worst ratio of any of the leagues in the survey. It's probably a lot worse now.

Whether you prefer the football in La Liga or the EPL is a matter of taste, not money. That's not what I'm talking about. Furthermore, the size of a team's payroll is not 100% correlated to the quality of its players. The EPL probably overpays its players. Still, a big part of the appeal of the EPL is the level of competitiveness, and the stats show you why this is the case.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject:

Moses wrote:
Say what you will about Messi at international level, but 58 goals is still 58 goals, legit. He also would've won a World Cup against an incredible German team had it not been for Higuan missing a sitter. 😂


Yeah, but Messi had a chance to forever change the narrative of his career.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVo5eMuYwK4
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject:

Moses wrote:
marga86 wrote:
Moses wrote:
Messi banged more than 50 goals last season, top scorer in Europe's major leagues, how is that not great? Look at his El Classico performance last year too, he tore it up.

He is also Argentina's all time leading scorer. Greatest of respect to Pele and Maradona, but to me, the game has evolved a hell of a lot since they played, not sure either would have the same influence nowadays.

Messi does have an impressive change of pace, but his balance, his close control, his awareness and composure are what sets him apart. His touch is also immense, as is his passing.

I'd put Messi, Zidane and both Ronaldo ahead of Pele personally.


This is like saying that jordan wouldnt be good in today's league. It just doesnt make sense.

Sports science is so advanced today that a guy like pele would be an absolute monster, the guy had incredible core strength for someone who entered professional development at such a late age... in the 60s?

That's the thing, stats arent everything. Messi has not been good for argentina.. and he has had SEVERAL chances to capitalize and show up big, but hasnt. Everyone always has an excuse for him because he is quiet and appears to be humble.. Closest thing to maradona and pele, but unless he shows up big in Russia 2018, i doubt he will ever catch em


We are talking about 50 years ago with Pele, the game of football has evolved a lot since then. The level of competition today is far greater than it was back then too, the levels of athleticism are different, the tempo is greater, the need for sports science and not just natural talent is greater.

Say what you will about Messi at international level, but 58 goals is still 58 goals, legit. He also would've won a World Cup against an incredible German team had it not been for Higuan missing a sitter. 😂

I respect anyone's opinion about football, I met all of my best friends when we were little kids playing on the same team, and we still play together now 20+ years later. Guess we're lucky to be around to watch so many unreal players, makes me realise why I love the game so much.


yes, but messi was nurtured in today's game, and that's why he can compete in it.. if pele was nurtured in today's game, he'd compete in it too. And for the record, the game was a lot more physical back in the day; maradona and pele were hacked to death, and the refs allowed it. And FYI, don't forget messi needed hormone treatment, a benefit of today's health technology.

The competition aspect is all relative.. Would you say messi faces tougher opponents? Maybe in the champions league.. In club football? hmm... The league itself is rather week outside of 5-6 teams, the majority of today's top talent is concentrated across a handful of teams. Was that the case back in the day?

I do find it funny how everyone wants to make excuses for his choke jobs in international games.. You know what maradona did when his team couldnt score against england, a far superior squad, in the world cup? I know you know. Messi had a penalty to take in the copa america final, dude choked again.

I'm never going to discredit his achievements, there's a reason i think he is the THIRD best player of all time.. but i'm not going to sit here and excuse his choke jobs.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:37 pm    Post subject:

marga86 wrote:
[You know what maradona did when his team couldnt score against england, a far superior squad, in the world cup? I know you know.


He took matters into his own hands.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:51 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
marga86 wrote:
[You know what maradona did when his team couldnt score against england, a far superior squad, in the world cup? I know you know.


He took matters into his own hands.


Yep (bleep) him for that, tainted his career and ensured that "hand of God" would forever be a part of his legacy. Same as Zidane's headbutt, but I love ZZ though, played central midfield when I was younger, wanted to be just like him, same boots and everything 😂

I think my biggest footballing shame ever is when the original Ronaldo hurt his knee. I don't really like what ifs, but damn what could've been. . He really did have it all.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject:

Pots for the UCL Draw

I'm not a fan of the rule that puts all the league champions in Pot 1. Just like last year, we could see some really unbalanced groups. Spartak, Porto, Anderlecht, Maribor vs. Real, PSG, Tottenham, Leipzig.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:12 pm    Post subject:

lmfao.

we could end up with:

Bayern
Barca
Tottenham
RB Leipzig


YES PLEASE.

Dang, that 3rd pot is actually pretty darn stacked (for being a 3rd pot).. holy. LOL.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject:

My 17/18 CL Draw

Quote:
Group A: Real Madrid, FC Porto, Tottenham, Celtic
Group B: Bayern, PSG, Liverpool, CSKA
Group C: Shakhtar, Man Utd, Besiktas, NK Maribor
Group D: Juventus, Sevilla, FC Basel, RB Leipzig
Group E: Benfica, Dortmund, Napoli, Garabag
Group F: Chelsea, Barcelona, AS Roma, Sporting
Group G: Spartak, Atletico Madrid, Olympiakos, APOEL
Group H: Monaco, Man City, Anderlecht, Feyenoord


Came out nicely on the first try...
CL DRAW Simulator
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject:

Moses wrote:

I think my biggest footballing shame ever is when the original Ronaldo hurt his knee. I don't really like what ifs, but damn what could've been. . He really did have it all.


Similarly, Marco van Basten's career was cut short. He was the best player on the best team in the world for a number of years, but essentially retired at 28 due to some devastating injuries. He was the first player I remember being in awe. Youtube his incredible goal at the 1988 European championship, if you don't know what I'm talking about. Four years later, he was done.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:10 am    Post subject:

Zlatan's typically subdued reaction to his new deal with Man U:

https://twitter.com/Ibra_official/status/900706809027100677
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