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CRoost
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Joined: 21 Mar 2017
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 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | So if it took 6 SL games to change your mind about Lonzo then how long it will take to change your mind about our other Untouchable? |
If you think Lonzo "changed my mind" you weren't paying attention. |
There were only few guys that are high on him here and I don't think you were one of them. I know most experts here believed Fultz was the one. Both things can still be true but I'm glad you're all aboard after summer league. |
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dao
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | silkwilkes wrote: | | Ok well people are going to eat a whole lot of crow when they see Ingram this season... I'm going to remind them about it too. |
I'll be thrilled to eat crow if and when the time comes. That said, I've never felt more BS'd about a player in my entire time as a Laker fan. I've never seen a player whose actual play on the basketball court mattered less in terms of people's opinion of him. I think he'll be a fine player in the league, but in order for the chorus of people saying that he's a "star"...to the point of untouchability...he actually has to be good on the basketball court. We just had the benefit of watching someone who's a little younger than him look significantly better than he ever has.Not in our own fantasies, but in a game.
Ingram's in an incredible position, alongside a guy who has a marked impact on the production of his teammates. So if he's what you guys say he is, it's time to actually show it. He isn't the only young guy to ever play in the NBA and the ones who turned out to be stars were a lot better than him at the same age in the vast majority of cases. |
Ingram is less than two months older than Lonzo, so they're basically the same age. And Ingram looked fantastic in SL. Lonzo was great, he had one of the strongest SL's ever for a player his age. But to say that he looked "significantly better" than Ingram is probably a huge stretch. |
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LakerSD
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Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23790
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ricardoJPC wrote: | Tier 1 - (future MVP)- Lonzo Ball
Tier 2 - (All star) - Brandon Ingram (less impact in the game, but is probably going to be the go-to-guy, which is important in the playoffs)
TIer 3a - Nobody
Tier 3b - Randle, Kuzma
Tier 4a - clarkson, larry nance, Zubac
Tier 4b/5 - The rest
Not listed: KCP, Lopez |
I feel like we can be really impatient as it's hard for young guys like this to thrive in a brutal league but if we are going by flashes and performance to date I would go with this. I MIGHT move up Kuzma to 3a but that's only because he has had some flashes/potential for that.
Again obviously, SL is not that good of an indicator but I'm confident that Lonzo will adjust and become an MVP candidate eventually. But again, we need a bit of patience, fam 
Last edited by LakerSD on Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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silkwilkes
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Location: searching for the mojo of Dr. Buss
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | silkwilkes wrote: | | Ok well people are going to eat a whole lot of crow when they see Ingram this season... I'm going to remind them about it too. |
I'll be thrilled to eat crow if and when the time comes. That said, I've never felt more BS'd about a player in my entire time as a Laker fan. I've never seen a player whose actual play on the basketball court mattered less in terms of people's opinion of him. I think he'll be a fine player in the league, but in order for the chorus of people saying that he's a "star"...to the point of untouchability...he actually has to be good on the basketball court. We just had the benefit of watching someone who's a little younger than him look significantly better than he ever has. Not in our own fantasies, but in a game.
Ingram's in an incredible position, alongside a guy who has a marked impact on the production of his teammates. So if he's what you guys say he is, it's time to actually show it. He isn't the only young guy to ever play in the NBA and the ones who turned out to be stars were a lot better than him at the same age in the vast majority of cases. |
You just have a set of parameters that you look at which aren't universally accepted. It's like a financial model where you firmly believe in your assumptions. Thing is that there are always several models with their own set of assumptions that are looking to predict the same thing.
I saw plenty to get me excited based on what I was looking for.
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defense
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | Tier 1a - Lonzo Ball
Tier 1b - Nobody
Tier 2 - Nobody
Tier 3 - Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma
Tier 4 - Everyone else |
I understand where you're coming from on Ingram. One good game in the Summer League isn't enough to declare him a star. You also make a good point about the fit issue, given that he holds the ball a lot.
But Kuzma? I would need more than a good run in the Summer League to rank him that high. |
I said this in another thread and most seem to disagree. I also think he has a tendency to hold the ball. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Pau Gasol's Beard wrote: | | Dlo? |
Not sure what you mean. |
I think do...
Anyway, it kind of sucks that we didn't get a chance to see Ingram in some catch and shoot situations. That's the one area I'm really favoring Kuzma. It's not enough to just have talent. The talent has to fit with other players, and within the team concept...unless it's like Jordan. |
I don't. |
He means you were BS-ing us about DLO. |
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Villain6Activated
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | Tier 1a - Lonzo Ball
Tier 1b - Nobody
Tier 2 - Nobody
Tier 3 - Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma
Tier 4 - Everyone else |
You're much smarter then me about anything basketball and you're a good guy but you're hilariously wrong about Ingram and I'm gonna be here to remind you every step of the way during Ingram's journey to superstardom.
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SocalDevin
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Ingram
Ball
Kuz
ETC..
Ingram was clearly the best player on the floor when he played with Ball and Kuz, and he would have continued to be had played more.
Those that aren't high on Ingram will continue to find reasons not to be. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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GT was definitely very high on Lonzo (although he had Russell ranked higher in hypotheticals).
Last edited by greenfrog on Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LakerLogic
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuzma actually looks like he has some elite skills (shooting, especially for his size), Ingram does nothing elite yet. Part of the ranking was how I think the front-office and people around the league perceive their value. |
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hydrohead
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Rank our Assets |
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Tier 1 (Untouchable)
Lonzo, Ingram
Tier 2 (game changer)
Lopez
Tier 3 (Talents)
Randle, Caldwell-Pope,Kuzma
Tier 4 (Good rotation players)
nance, clarkson
tier 5 (can live without)
brewer,hart, zubac, bryant, caruso
tier 6 (recycle bin)
deng
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Andre2K
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | 21 years old in summer league, love the guy but all I can do at this point is eye roll 🙄 |
It's a matter of shooting form. Ingram isn't the only 19-20 year old to ever lace 'em up. |
The game of basketball is more than shooting form. Ingram has more upside than Kuzma and it's not even close. |
Is "who has more upside" the question in the first place? |
You rank assets without considering upside and value?
_________________
My Dream Starting 5 next Season
Pg Lonzo
Sg Kawhi
Sf Ingram
Pf Lebron
C Dedmon
Bench: Caruso, Hart, Bullock, Kuzma, McGee etc  |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | Kuzma actually looks like he has some elite skills (shooting, especially for his size), Ingram does nothing elite yet. Part of the ranking was how I think the front-office and people around the league perceive their value. |
I actually think they compliment each other pretty well. Ingram can be the short clock release guy when the halfcourt offense bogs down, and Kuzma can play off the ball. |
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SocalDevin
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Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | Ingram
Ball
Kuz
ETC..
Ingram was clearly the best player on the floor when he played with Ball and Kuz, and he would have continued to be had played more.
Those that aren't high on Ingram will continue to find reasons not to be. |
You got it backward. Those who are high on Ingram will continue to find reasons to be no matter what. An entire season of fawning over the kid when all objective measures had him as God-awful, but I'm supposed to change my mind about him after ONE Summer League game? Sheesh. |
Don't change your mind, I wouldn't make any effort to sway your view of him. I value your posts and opinions the same as everyone elses. Even though some posters are thought of as experts.
You're just clearly wrong about Ingram, the same way you were clearly wrong about Russell's value. Which is fine, no one is perfect.. At the end of the day we're all just giving opinions. =) I'm just happy the front office doesn't see it your way. Nor does the majority of the league. I suppose it's possible you see something most of us don't. Though I doubt it. |
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Andre2K
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | 21 years old in summer league, love the guy but all I can do at this point is eye roll 🙄 |
It's a matter of shooting form. Ingram isn't the only 19-20 year old to ever lace 'em up. |
The game of basketball is more than shooting form. Ingram has more upside than Kuzma and it's not even close. |
Is "who has more upside" the question in the first place? |
You rank assets without considering upside and value? |
Of course not. Do you rank assets without considering downside? |
No I don't, but Brandon's upside far outweigh his downside. I've also said the same thing about Ball when a lot of people here were concerned about him. You gotta be able to see the big picture, that's why I'm so happy Magic does, that's why Ingram is untouchable and we'd be building around Ball and Ingram. The rest of the guys can fall in line and the bad seeds would be weeded out like the ones that have been weeded out already.
_________________
My Dream Starting 5 next Season
Pg Lonzo
Sg Kawhi
Sf Ingram
Pf Lebron
C Dedmon
Bench: Caruso, Hart, Bullock, Kuzma, McGee etc |
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silkwilkes
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Location: searching for the mojo of Dr. Buss
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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GT was absolutely on board with Lonzo the whole way. Stop that nonsense.
Thing with metrics is that it does well with players that have a more finished product... that are more polished. Statistics are analysis of the past which, if the variables remain relatively consistent, can help predict future performance. But the error margin is huge, to the point of making the statistics irrelevant, if the variables change significantly. You're basically looking to get data that fall in a normal bell curve with a reasonable standard deviation.
So metrics almost completely fall apart when you're looking at players that is raw and hasn't settled into a pattern that a model can accurately define. That's where Ingram falls. I saw (and see) all the elements of a star player that just need to get more refined to deliver a final product. Those things started coming together the last 2 months of the previous season and I have little doubt that BI will take a HUGE step this season as well.
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"He may say it's not you, it's him.... but it's really you." |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | GT was definitely very high on Lonzo (although he had Russell ranked higher in hypotheticals). I can vouch. |
I was not here until this year. So if GT thought that guy is higher, he must have believed he was a franchise player until Magic ship him out. Because if that's not the case then he was not high on him like he's now. |
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Username
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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It is important to define how exactly we are ranking these players. Are we ranking them based on how WE view them, or what we think their rank would be on the open market?
We can go back and forth all day long about Brandon Ingram's potential, but it seems apparent from everything I've read and seen from those "in the know" that he's still viewed around the league as a "Tier 1" prospect.
I would imagine Lonzo is as well.
Beyond that, who can really say? Some here would have ranked Russell as Tier 1, but clearly his value around the league was minimal. I'd guess Clarkson and Randle aren't that sought after around the NBA either, but who knows. I'm sure Kuzma, if what we saw in SL is legit, will creep up to Tier 2/3 status shortly. |
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 17886
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| GT never actually believed DLo was a franchise/can't miss player. He just ended up defending him more because of all the illogical hatred. |
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justsomelakerfan
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Joined: 16 Jul 2016
Posts: 10939
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | Tier 1a - Lonzo Ball
Tier 1b - Nobody
Tier 2 - Nobody
Tier 3 - Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma
Tier 4 - Everyone else |
Yo I know this is four pages back but B R U H |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | GT was definitely very high on Lonzo (although he had Russell ranked higher in hypotheticals). I can vouch. |
I was not here until this year. So if GT thought that guy is higher, he must have believed he was a franchise player until Magic ship him out. Because if that's not the case then he was not high on him like he's now. |
I don't know how anyone could be 100% certain that Lonzo's game was going to translate. He's my favorite one and done college player ever, but even I had some doubts. |
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defense
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | Tier 1a - Lonzo Ball
Tier 1b - Nobody
Tier 2 - Nobody
Tier 3 - Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma
Tier 4 - Everyone else |
Yo I know this is four pages back but B R U H |
Definitely some emotion behind this one lol but I'm sure we are all guilty of that at times. Well at least he likes Lonzo?
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Andre2K
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Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 12199
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | 21 years old in summer league, love the guy but all I can do at this point is eye roll 🙄 |
It's a matter of shooting form. Ingram isn't the only 19-20 year old to ever lace 'em up. |
The game of basketball is more than shooting form. Ingram has more upside than Kuzma and it's not even close. |
Is "who has more upside" the question in the first place? |
You rank assets without considering upside and value? |
Of course not. Do you rank assets without considering downside? |
No I don't, but Brandon's upside far outweigh his downside. I've also said the same thing about Ball when a lot of people here were concerned about him. You gotta be able to see the big picture, that's why I'm so happy Magic does, that's why Ingram is untouchable and we'd be building around Ball and Ingram. The rest of the guys can fall in line and the bad seeds would be weeded out like the ones that have been weeded out already. |
All that's happened is that they didn't screw up the pick and selected a future superstar in Lonzo, which is gonna put a great cologne on anything else that they've done, and rightfully so. "Weeded out." Have mercy. |
They weeded out players that didn't fit the vision of what they're trying to build and yes, Lonzo is an absolute Superstar. We didn't need someone who couldn't show support for who the Lakers wanted to draft. It's clear that Lonzo is our guy going forward and moves were made to ensure that. We got a genuine leader and a true team player.
_________________
My Dream Starting 5 next Season
Pg Lonzo
Sg Kawhi
Sf Ingram
Pf Lebron
C Dedmon
Bench: Caruso, Hart, Bullock, Kuzma, McGee etc |
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CRoost
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Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Pau Gasol's Beard wrote: | | Dlo? |
Not sure what you mean. |
I think do...
Anyway, it kind of sucks that we didn't get a chance to see Ingram in some catch and shoot situations. That's the one area I'm really favoring Kuzma. It's not enough to just have talent. The talent has to fit with other players, and within the team concept...unless it's like Jordan. |
I don't. |
He means you were BS-ing us about DLO. |
Ah, I see. I can point to objective metrics which demonstrate that Russell is a good player relative to his age and position. Can the same be said of Ingram?
I also never called him "untouchable" nor claimed him to be a future superstar. I've always maintained that he was likely a 1-2 time All-Star type of guy. |
Yet you still ranked him over Lonzo. So where's the logic that you were high on Lonzo in the first place? |
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VicXLakers
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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